Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[jon0844]

So how do tourists arriving in Sweden, which has closed its ticket offices cope?

It's a pain, especially if you arrive at an airport like Arlanda which has confusing options and everything geared to selling you an Express ticket to Stockholm.

And it was just as much a pain when they made you use a smartcard on buses, and stopped taking payments (or stamping the paper strips etc). If you didn't have a card, which you'd need to get from a kiosk somewhere, you couldn't travel. I am sure they take contactless now, but there have been lots of issues that didn't make tourists find it easy.

I am not sure we want to be copying that. Technology can help, but Sweden perhaps rushed ahead and we need to do a LOT of (expensive) work if we want to make it possible to get everything done without needing staff.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I think if you are reduced to insulting people who don't agree with you "Luddite", "nonsense" you are part of the way at least to losing the argument. As I say most understand the need for change - it's the how and when that's the issue. I'd go for a station by station review - not the broadbrush approach currently envisaged

I fully understand what the consultation is "supposed to be doing"

The fact that it (which you seem to have great faith in) has already been cocked up and had to be extended is hardly going to give people any faith in the process.

Totally agree. And by continually making sweeping statements to which he has no data whatsoever does his arguments no favours.

 

[infobleep]

For now, yes, but it is clear we're all being pushed down the 'do everything on your phone' route, and my point is that - for all manner of reasons - many people aren't comfortable with that.



I always have some cash elsewhere on my person, so already have a backup.

Is the cash kept separately, away from your cards?

 

[yorksrob]

Is the cash kept separately, away from your cards?

I use card but always like to have cash for small transactions.

 

[northwichcat]

Two possible outcomes of all this -
1 . The consultations and deliberations drag on until close to the election, at which point the caring government announce that they have heard the views of people and are cancelling the plans.

or

2. Considering people would bee expecting / pressurising Labour to say they would reverse the closures the decision is made quickly and the TOCs are placed under DfT pressure to take urgent action to remove or repurpose ticket office spaces so that any hopes of re-opening would be grossly expensive or impossible.

Presumably the actual figures are on the desk of someone in the Treasury, who is there regardless of who wins the next election.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual outcome is:
1. Some ticket office closures go ahead.
2. Some ticket offices get their hours revised.
3. Either (2) results in a small number of ticket offices seeing an increase in hours, or/and a few busy/new stations get new tickets.

Then the government boasts about (3) and the fact some ticket offices are saved, alebit with reduced hours.

 

[Krokodil]

Most overseas tourists aren't gallivanting around the UK by train

For all of our safety it would be better if they did. Especially until Americans have mastered the use of the roundabout. I met an American who had pranged her hire car pretty much straight after leaving Heathrow. The train was definitely a better option.

and those that are, will buy a Britrail pass before travelling as it's cheaper and easier.

How many times does it need to be pointed out to you that many booking offices do more than just sell tickets? Advice for a start.

 

[RailWonderer]

The ticket machines at Paddington do not sell tickets beyond the GWR network, leaving me high and dry returning from Heathrow until a member of staff sold me a ticket. They are needed as there are many tickets types machines do not sell. As said before the most likely outcome is a compromise with some variation on how actively opposed certain regions have been in preventing shutdowns of t/os.

 

[MikeWM]

Is the cash kept separately, away from your cards?

Notes in wallet with cards, coins in jacket pocket, and then a few more 'backup' notes elsewhere. Not something I deliberately initially set out to do, but has developed into a situation I'm content with.

--

The ticket machines at Paddington do not sell tickets beyond the GWR network, leaving me high and dry returning from Heathrow until a member of staff sold me a ticket. They are needed as there are many tickets types mahcines do not sell.

The TVMs on GA are actually pretty good and sell almost everything I'm likely to buy, except rangers and rovers (and my annual gold card). But there is such a wide variety of machines across the network of various quality and flexibility that I have to agree that they're not ready to fully take over from ticket offices at this point, even on that narrow criterion alone and ignoring the other things ticket offices do.

 

[urbophile]

Most overseas tourists aren't gallivanting around the UK by train - and those that are, will buy a Britrail pass before travelling as it's cheaper and easier.

Continually citing edge cases won't change the policy, because the edge cases are just that - very small numbers, marginal revenue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

What has your 'reply' got to do with my comment, which didn't mention tourists at all?

What you call 'edge cases' I would call human beings. Each of whom needs to be given consideration. Commercial firms can focus on a particular section of the population (and even then, they tend not to neglect the needs of their customers). I would argue that a national transport system is far more than a commercial firm (even though there are necessarily some commercial aspects to its work); it is a public service and so needs to cater for all people and not just for those (even if a majority) who are prepared to adjust to its ways.

Many stations have installed lifts and other facilities to help a small minority of their users. Such things will never be commercially successful. So why should ticket offices be any different?

 

[A0]

What has your 'reply' got to do with my comment, which didn't mention tourists at all?

What you call 'edge cases' I would call human beings. Each of whom needs to be given consideration. Commercial firms can focus on a particular section of the population (and even then, they tend not to neglect the needs of their customers). I would argue that a national transport system is far more than a commercial firm (even though there are necessarily some commercial aspects to its work); it is a public service and so needs to cater for all people and not just for those (even if a majority) who are prepared to adjust to its ways.

Many stations have installed lifts and other facilities to help a small minority of their users. Such things will never be commercially successful. So why should ticket offices be any different?

Bit in bold - that's not how *any* of the public services work, be it health, education, transport or anything else - they are one size to fit the majority of people, not bespoke services offering whatever a group of people may demand. And people have "adjusted" to changes in all of those, because they have had to if they want to use the service.

If you want a "bespoke" or a service fit for everyone, you'd better expect the costs and prices to go up to cover that - and most people don't want higher taxes (except on people who are richer than them it seems) or higher prices.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

No. Many are making one journey when they arrive and another when they depart, so they will use the train but won't have any use for Britrail or another other rover tickets.

They might turn up at Heathrow Airport and find themselves presented with London Underground, Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express options and might need the different options explaining to them.

Or they might turn up at Manchester Airport and find the service they have an advance ticket for is showing is cancelled, so they might attempt to buy a new ticket if there's no ticket office where they can go an explain the situation.

It's also possible those staying in London might choose to do a day trip to Oxford by train, or those staying in Manchester might do a day trip to Liverpool or York.

Bit in bold - this has been addressed before. Who travels to a major city in another country without doing a bit of basic research before setting off ?

20 years ago before smartphones or the internet, it meant buying a Lonely Planet guide or similar, and some didn't bother.

But now, it takes seconds on Google to check these things out before setting off. And please don't say "oh but what about people without smartphones" because you're not seriously suggesting somebody who has shelled out a few hundred pounds plus possibly a visa to travel to the UK has done so without a mobile phone and an internet connection - this is 2023 not 1983.

 

[HSTEd]

Many stations have installed lifts and other facilities to help a small minority of their users. Such things will never be commercially successful. So why should ticket offices be any different?

A lift costs a small fraction as much to maintain long term as a ticket office that inherently has huge associated staffing costs.

Staffing costs that are going to continue to worsen given the demographic reality.

 

[142blue]

Now on TPE's link

Ticket Offices Update | TransPennine Express

www.tpexpress.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==



On that point:-

One day when I was travelling on a Manchester bound train a wheelchair passenger was waiting at Lostock Gralam (unstaffed). It took the guard a few minutes to get to the ramp and then to operate the ramp. End result an on-time train became a late train.

Another day there was one at Knutsford. The man from the ticket office was already out with the station ramp and had it set up the second the guard released the doors.

As staffed stations have more passengers in total, you'd probably expect more disabled passengers too.

Of course Northern's use of guards follows a more traditional approach than other operators, so the delays when guards have to deploy ramps are probably longer. And if a consistent train type and platform height was rolled out on each line, it could even eliminate the need for manual deployment of ramps altogether!

Sounds like example one the guard was not expecting them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2023 ==

That booking halls such as Manchester Piccadilly and Euston have been caught up in this shambles, illustrates that this pathetic exercise has nothing whatsoever to do with moulding booking office capacities around passenger needs.

Tory lies and cuts is all it amounts to.

Absolutely correct.

All about saving money

You know the staff that left or went to other jobs, has their salaries they no longer pay been used for anything else

Recruitment for replacement? No
Pay increases? No
Offsetting fare rises? No

So where is that money

 

[northwichcat]

Sounds like example one the guard was not expecting them

There isn't any requirement for wheelchair passengers to give advance notice they want to travel and if they don't hold Advance tickets they are allowed to catch an earlier or later train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sounds like example one the guard was not expecting them

If this was the Lostock Gralam case, with a Manchester-bound train, I’m not surprised that the guard was a bit surprised by a wheelchair. According to the station details there is only stepped access to the platform.

Something doesn’t sound right.

 

[northwichcat]

If this was the Lostock Gralam case, with a Manchester-bound train, I’m not surprised that the guard was a bit surprised by a wheelchair. According to the station details there is only stepped access to the platform.

Something doesn’t sound right.

Yes sounds like you have an ignorance of disabilities. If you've ever seen Ade Adepitan doing a report for The Travel Show on iPlayer or the BBC News channel you'll know that some wheelchair users can use crotches for a short distance. It's possible the wheelchair passenger in question had a helper who assisted in getting them on the platform, but wasn't allowed to help them on to the train. You should also know that the train ramps are sometimes needed for disabled people who aren't in wheelchairs.

Anyway I don't know whether the guard was expecting them has anything to do with it. On class 150s Northern guards never or close release the doors from the middle where the ramp is, so they are always going to delay the train if they have to use the ramp at an intermediate station.

 

[robert thomas]

Bit in bold - that's not how *any* of the public services work, be it health, education, transport or anything else - they are one size to fit the majority of people, not bespoke services offering whatever a group of people may demand. And people have "adjusted" to changes in all of those, because they have had to if they want to use the service.

If you want a "bespoke" or a service fit for everyone, you'd better expect the costs and prices to go up to cover that - and most people don't want higher taxes (except on people who are richer than them it seems) or higher prices.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==



Bit in bold - this has been addressed before. Who travels to a major city in another country without doing a bit of basic research before setting off ?

20 years ago before smartphones or the internet, it meant buying a Lonely Planet guide or similar, and some didn't bother.

But now, it takes seconds on Google to check these things out before setting off. And please don't say "oh but what about people without smartphones" because you're not seriously suggesting somebody who has shelled out a few hundred pounds plus possibly a visa to travel to the UK has done so without a mobile phone and an internet connection - this is 2023 not 1983.

I have travelled extensively throughout Europe for years and don't posess a mobile phone

 

[island]

I have travelled extensively throughout Europe for years and don't posess a mobile phone

Good for you. But the railway does not need to cater for the tiny minority who choose not to use current technology.

 

[A0]

Absolutely correct.

All about saving money

You know the staff that left or went to other jobs, has their salaries they no longer pay been used for anything else

Recruitment for replacement? No
Pay increases? No
Offsetting fare rises? No

So where is that money

Reducing the exorbitant subsidy the rail industry receives - or, more likely, stopping it increasing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2023 ==

Many stations have installed lifts and other facilities to help a small minority of their users. Such things will never be commercially successful. So why should ticket offices be any different?

The Equality Act drove a number of accessibility changes - and those lifts benefit far more than "disabled" - parents with young children or children in a push chair, an older person who is able bodied, but has items of luggage among others.

Removing ticket offices doesn't prevent people accessing the service, having a flight of stairs to access a platform potentially does.

 

[eoff]

Good for you. But the railway does not need to cater for the tiny minority who choose not to use current technology.

Of course it should. For example requiring a smartphone and for it to be somehow connected with a form of payment is not acceptable.

 

[Spamcan81]

Of course it should. For example requiring a smartphone and for it to be somehow connected with a form of payment is not acceptable.

Quite so. Trying to make buying a ticket reliant solely on using modern technology is not on for a number of reasons.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Quite so. Trying to make buying a ticket reliant solely on using modern technology is not on for a number of reasons.

It'll happen though. Do ticket offices still take cheques?

 

[island]

Of course it should.

Why?

For example requiring a smartphone and for it to be somehow connected with a form of payment is not acceptable.

That’s a straw man.

 

[northwichcat]

It'll happen though. Do ticket offices still take cheques?

When they stopped accepting cheque there was still a choice of cash and card. Paying on or using mobile is usually just a different way of using your existing credit or debit card.

 

[island]

Quite so. Trying to make buying a ticket reliant solely on using modern technology is not on for a number of reasons.

That’s your opinion which you’re entitled to, but the railway has already withdrawn or severely limited acceptance for other anachronistic types of payment such as cheques or non-chip credit cards, and LU has already closed its booking offices. The steps discussed in this thread are happening whether you like them or not.

 

[Topological]

Quite so. Trying to make buying a ticket reliant solely on using modern technology is not on for a number of reasons.

Indeed, there are issues of digital exclusion which cannot be swept under the carpet.

The solution to digital exclusion will be what eventually drives the end of non-digital payments because there is still a public interest in what services the railway offers. Like every aspect of life, the end of non-digital will come. The task is to make sure that the population are all ready and that there is not exclusion of any vulnerable groups.

Technology progresses, but we do have to ensure that progress is as equitable as it can be.

 

[northwichcat]

non-chip credit cards

A change in regulations meant that retailers are not required to accept magnetic strip and signature for card payments anymore. It's an insecure payment method and retailers are liable themselves if they still accept that method and fraud takes place.

Can anyone remember a time when there was no choice of payment method when paying for an item?

 

[HSTEd]

Can anyone remember a time when there was no choice of payment method when paying for an item?

Many establishments near me now accept card only and that is that.

 

[Ediswan]

Can anyone remember a time when there was no choice of payment method when paying for an item?

Yes. Before cheque guarantee cards were introduced, cash was often the only option.

 

[Killingworth]

Yes. Before cheque guarantee cards were introduced, cash was often the only option.

Most larger department stores offered regular customers an account settled monthly.

 

[island]

Most larger department stores offered regular customers an account settled monthly.

The railway still does by way of warrant accounts, though who knows for how much longer.