Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[infobleep]

I note the following in the SWR co sultsrion document.

Current ticket office opening hours
Proposed station staffing hours
Monday
6:15am - 9:00pm
Midnight - 11:59pm
Tuesday
6:15am - 9:00pm
Midnight - 11:59pm
Wednesday
6:15am - 9:00pm
Midnight - 11:59pm
Thursday
6:15am - 9:00pm
Midnight - 11:59pm
Friday
6:15am - 9:00pm
Midnight - 11:59pm
Saturday
6:15am - 9:00pm
Midnight - 11:59pm
Sunday
7:00am - 9:00pm
Midnight - 11:59pm

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/-/media/4a7c3fdbfa36497984251370ca54dfb4.ashx

Currently Guildford station has at least pne member of staff for 24 hours but closes officially from 01:30 until around 04:00 to potebtionbthem for their safety.

Would this change mean its open 24/7 and would the official diversion for pedestrians along Farnham Road bridge be no longer required?

Or would they keep the station open but srill maintain the hours for which one needs to take the official diversion?

I'm surprised the hours are that generous.

 

[Parjon]

I spoke to my manager yesterday. There will be nowhere to sit, no heater or shade. Just directly under the sun/cloud sky.

During your 30 minutes break you may use the mess room if you like.

I don't like the sound of that. I'm gonna make a run and never look back.

Which I suspect suits them just fine.

Personally. I would make them aware of various health and safety issues associated with their lack of provision - whatever I could think of - then stick around to sue them when the first opportunity arises.

This whole thing just smacks of mass redundancy while pretending it isn't, and in turn without paying the appropriate price for it.

 

[NeilCr]

Gaby Hinsliff on the subject and a bit more

The people have spoken, and they want to speak to real live humans, not a rail ticket self-service app | Gaby Hinsliff

Automation is causing many casualties. Technology marches on, but there’s a yearning for moments of precious connection, says Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff

www.theguardian.com

 

[A0]

Gaby Hinsliff on the subject and a bit more

The people have spoken, and they want to speak to real live humans, not a rail ticket self-service app | Gaby Hinsliff

Automation is causing many casualties. Technology marches on, but there’s a yearning for moments of precious connection, says Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff

www.theguardian.com

Peddling the flawed argument about an "ageing" population though. Her argument seems to be those in their 80s struggle with technology - implication anyone over the age of 80 will struggle with technology. But that's illogical - my parents who are in their 70s are completely au fait with technology and using smart phones etc - they won't suddenly stop being familiar with it when they turn 80 in a few years time.

 

[12LDA28C]

Peddling the flawed argument about an "ageing" population though. Her argument seems to be those in their 80s struggle with technology - implication anyone over the age of 80 will struggle with technology. But that's illogical - my parents who are in their 70s are completely au fait with technology and using smart phones etc - they won't suddenly stop being familiar with it when they turn 80 in a few years time.

What's illogical is giving an anecdotal example of your own parents being able to use the technology as proof that all people of a similar age are in the same position. That seems to be an ongoing theme in this thread - 'I buy my tickets online / using an App so I can't possibly imagine why everyone else on the planet can't do the same'.

 

[A0]

What's illogical is giving an anecdotal example of your own parents being able to use the technology as proof that all people of a similar age are in the same position. That seems to be an ongoing theme in this thread - 'I buy my tickets online / using an App so I can't possibly imagine why everyone else on the planet can't do the same'.

Smart phone usage statistics show an overwhelming majority do use them

If you look at this site https://www.statista.com/statistics/300402/smartphone-usage-in-the-uk-by-age/

what you can see is back in 2012 where only 3% of over 65s were using Smartphones compared to 46% of 45-64s, now the figure for over 65s is 67% and the 45-64 is at 89% - basically as people are getting older, they aren't forgetting how or choosing not to use smartphones - quite the opposite.

Anyone who is 70 now would have been in their 40s in the 1990s when computer use, in work and at home, became widespread. There was a prescient comment below the article posted:

It's 2023 - people who are in their 80s have had computers in or around their lives for 30 years now. Many older people are highly effective at using technology - my grandfather who was born in 1922 learned to use (and would try to learn how to repair and reassemble) devices throughout his life.

At what point do we recognise basic aptitude as an essential skill and move on from this patronising trope?

 

[infobleep]

I think we need stats for over 65 broken down as the stats for the ages below are. So 65-74, 75-84 etc.

 

[DownUmmy]

58 pages on this topic so far and the various arguments and points raised are now being repeated and embellished. Whilst I can very much see both viewpoints the one major argument against the closure of ticket offices is that it prevents or makes extremely difficult for some members of society to use the railway. However, along with hundreds of other stations across the network, my local station (Gainsborough Lea Road) along with several on the same line has been unstaffed for at least 20 years. There is quite clearly no need for staff as guards assist passengers from the trains and there is no evidence of any problems with ticketing (TVM only recently installed). Surely therefore there must be a case for at least some reduction in staffing of ticket offices across the network with maybe some concessions for retention at larger stations?

 

[Devonian]

Smart phone usage statistics show an overwhelming majority do use them

If you look at this site https://www.statista.com/statistics/300402/smartphone-usage-in-the-uk-by-age/

what you can see is back in 2012 where only 3% of over 65s were using Smartphones compared to 46% of 45-64s, now the figure for over 65s is 67% and the 45-64 is at 89% - basically as people are getting older, they aren't forgetting how or choosing not to use smartphones - quite the opposite.

Anyone who is 70 now would have been in their 40s in the 1990s when computer use, in work and at home, became widespread. There was a prescient comment below the article posted:

I find it as infuriating to assume that anyone under a particular age is completely devoted to doing everything with a smartphone as it is to assume that anyone over that age is to incompetent to do so.

Just because someone uses a smartphone does not mean that they are capable of, or confident in, booking rail tickets. There is a world of difference between checking the weather, sending messages or video calling the grandkids and booking rail tickets, not least because the latter is often far more complex and can come with draconian penalties if you get it wrong. Similarly, comparisons between using self-checkouts in a supermarket and using a ticket machine fail to recognise the difference in complexity and risk.

This applies to any age group, not just the over 80s. As well as confidence and preference, people of any age can face changes in their vision or dexterity that make relying on touchscreens - whether smartphones or ticket machines - harder than booking tickets in person.

58 pages on this topic so far and the various arguments and points raised are now being repeated and embellished. Whilst I can very much see both viewpoints the one major argument against the closure of ticket offices is that it prevents or makes extremely difficult for some members of society to use the railway. However, along with hundreds of other stations across the network, my local station (Gainsborough Lea Road) along with several on the same line has been unstaffed for at least 20 years. There is quite clearly no need for staff as guards assist passengers from the trains and there is no evidence of any problems with ticketing (TVM only recently installed). Surely therefore there must be a case for at least some reduction in staffing of ticket offices across the network with maybe some concessions for retention at larger stations?

The irony is that a totally unstaffed station may actually be easier to use for some customers: if there are no ticket facilities at all, then all tickets can be bought on the train - from a member of staff. The greater barrier may be a station with only a ticket machine that some customers cannot confidently use, but whose presence means that they cannot buy in board without risking penalty.

 

[Killingworth]

I think we need stats for over 65 broken down as the stats for the ages below are. So 65-74, 75-84 etc.

Statistics can selectively be found to prove almost any point that's wanted to be made.

Being in that over 70 category I have many friends over 60 and some over 80.

They are well spread on their views of technology. Some have remained doggedly opposed for as longg as I can remember. From being opposed to the move from weekly payment in cash to monthly bank pay it's no surprise that 50 years later the same people won't consider a smartphone or use contactless. On the other side most have adapted well to the smart world and are adapting to take advantage.

Each generation goes through the same varied levels of adaption to newtechnology. I know my grandchildren will pick things up quicker than I will. They've been rail commuting since age 11 and I can just about keep up on this specialised subject.

However there does seem to be a point where many of us will say this far and no further. It gets harder to keep up as each year passes. Those responsible for making sweeping changes may discover this as they grow older.

(This typed on a new smartphone that I'd have struggled to master if I'd not had several previously )

 

[yorksrob]

Peddling the flawed argument about an "ageing" population though. Her argument seems to be those in their 80s struggle with technology - implication anyone over the age of 80 will struggle with technology. But that's illogical - my parents who are in their 70s are completely au fait with technology and using smart phones etc - they won't suddenly stop being familiar with it when they turn 80 in a few years time.

The article mentions all sorts of people including the disabled and recently arrived tourists.

 

[MikeWM]

Just because someone uses a smartphone does not mean that they are capable of, or confident in, booking rail tickets. There is a world of difference between checking the weather, sending messages or video calling the grandkids and booking rail tickets, not least because the latter is often far more complex and can come with draconian penalties if you get it wrong.

Absolutely this. Once money (and potential penalties for getting things wrong) enter the equation, that's a big psychological difference from checking the headlines or looking to see whether your train is on time.

I have a smartphone. I've never bought anything on it, I've never used it for a financial transaction, and I've never linked it in any way to my bank account or credit cards. And, for a number of reasons, I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[A0]

The article mentions all sorts of people including the disabled and recently arrived tourists.

Disabled people can and do use the internet - in many ways the internet is even better for them as there is so much assistive technology available.

So how do tourists arriving in Sweden, which has closed its ticket offices cope ? Or the fact that the majority of tourists go to London, which has already closed all the ticket offices on the Underground and don't accept cash fares on buses ? The tourists seemed to be coping pretty well last time I was in London a few months back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

Absolutely this. Once money (and potential penalties for getting things wrong) enter the equation, that's a big psychological difference from checking the headlines or looking to see whether your train is on time.

I have a smartphone. I've never bought anything on it, I've never used it for a financial transaction, and I've never linked it in any way to my bank account or credit cards. And, for a number of reasons, I'd like to keep it that way.

Fine - but you can use a TVM, or you can buy a ticket on line at home and print out the bit of paper with the QR code on and carry that with you.

I have to say putting one credit card on Google Wallet / Apple Pay seems like a sensible precaution as whilst you might lose your wallet, the likelihood of losing both your phone and wallet is much less, so it gives you an emergency way to pay.

 

[MikeWM]

Fine - but you can use a TVM, or you can buy a ticket on line at home and print out the bit of paper with the QR code on and carry that with you.

For now, yes, but it is clear we're all being pushed down the 'do everything on your phone' route, and my point is that - for all manner of reasons - many people aren't comfortable with that.

I have to say putting one credit card on Google Wallet / Apple Pay seems like a sensible precaution as whilst you might lose your wallet, the likelihood of losing both your phone and wallet is much less, so it gives you an emergency way to pay.

I always have some cash elsewhere on my person, so already have a backup.

 

[A0]

For now, yes, but it is clear we're all being pushed down the 'do everything on your phone' route, and my point is that - for all manner of reasons - many people aren't comfortable with that.

TVMs won't be going anywhere for at least 20 years and its unlikely that the websites with print at home functionality will go in the next 20 years either. Most phone apps are still integrated to the same back end systems as the website, so having an app but not web site isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

[yorksrob]

Disabled people can and do use the internet - in many ways the internet is even better for them as there is so much assistive technology available.

So how do tourists arriving in Sweden, which has closed its ticket offices cope ? Or the fact that the majority of tourists go to London, which has already closed all the ticket offices on the Underground and don't accept cash fares on buses ? The tourists seemed to be coping pretty well last time I was in London a few months back.
[

Badly.

"Sweden does it" is not a catch-all automatic endorsement for any changes.

 

[NeilCr]

Peddling the flawed argument about an "ageing" population though. Her argument seems to be those in their 80s struggle with technology - implication anyone over the age of 80 will struggle with technology. But that's illogical - my parents who are in their 70s are completely au fait with technology and using smart phones etc - they won't suddenly stop being familiar with it when they turn 80 in a few years time.

Just as you are posting your own flawed argument

People of whatever age etc don’t fit into some nice model based on quoting statistics. It’s equally illogical to say because your parents are over 70 and can use technology then everyone else can

I am (very nearly) 70 - I happily buy e tickets -my over 70 partially sighted partner in the same age group really struggles.

And - as we say - this isn’t just about buying tickets. There’s a lot more to it than that

Once again I doubt anyone will say change isn’t necessary. It’s the depth and speed of this that is the issue

The consultation is already a shambles. Something that was so (apparently) good has tripped at pretty much the first hurdle

I understand you have faith in consultations. Can’t say I share that based on what has happened so far

 

[northwichcat]

Now on TPE's link

The consultation begins Wednesday 5 July and runs until Friday 1 September.

Ticket Offices Update | TransPennine Express

www.tpexpress.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

There is quite clearly no need for staff as guards assist passengers from the trains and there is no evidence of any problems with ticketing (TVM only recently installed). Surely therefore there must be a case for at least some reduction in staffing of ticket offices across the network with maybe some concessions for retention at larger stations?

On that point:-

One day when I was travelling on a Manchester bound train a wheelchair passenger was waiting at Lostock Gralam (unstaffed). It took the guard a few minutes to get to the ramp and then to operate the ramp. End result an on-time train became a late train.

Another day there was one at Knutsford. The man from the ticket office was already out with the station ramp and had it set up the second the guard released the doors.

As staffed stations have more passengers in total, you'd probably expect more disabled passengers too.

Of course Northern's use of guards follows a more traditional approach than other operators, so the delays when guards have to deploy ramps are probably longer. And if a consistent train type and platform height was rolled out on each line, it could even eliminate the need for manual deployment of ramps altogether!

 

[urbophile]

Or the fact that the majority of tourists go to London, which has already closed all the ticket offices on the Underground and don't accept cash fares on buses ? The tourists seemed to be coping pretty well last time I was in London a few months back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

Because there is a much simpler system of fares , and once one has an Oystercard or contactless credit card you just go ahead and use it? Unlike having to figure out which combination of tickets for a long distance journey will be the cheapest, or perhaps more importantly which tickets do you need to avoid a fine or penalty.

Moreover, not all train companies offer the same sort of tickets, and their availability can be unpredictable. For example I tried to book tickets for a journey with Transpennine the other week, but an e-ticket wasn't offered, only the opportunity to collect one from a TVM. Since I had to go to the station to catch the train it made more sense to buy the ticket at the office. Not every station has a TVM so if you are forced to collect your ticket there it might mean an inconvenient and expensive extra journey.

If every city region had a similarly efficient fare and ticketing structure as London, there would be no need for ticket offices for local journeys. But at present they don't. Similarly if there was a straightforward and easily understandable national fares structure (like – I don't know _ in Sweden?) the need for ticket offices would be less.

None of this however takes away from the importance of a human staff presence at stations. Few people expect this at rural halts like Berney Arms (the equivalent of bus stops), but surely any station serving a reasonably sized settlement should have at least one human being on duty whenever trains are running. It's less important that this person is behind a booking office window, but if it's there, why not use it?

 

[A0]

Because there is a much simpler system of fares , and once one has an Oystercard or contactless credit card you just go ahead and use it? Unlike having to figure out which combination of tickets for a long distance journey will be the cheapest, or perhaps more importantly which tickets do you need to avoid a fine or penalty.

Moreover, not all train companies offer the same sort of tickets, and their availability can be unpredictable. For example I tried to book tickets for a journey with Transpennine the other week, but an e-ticket wasn't offered, only the opportunity to collect one from a TVM. Since I had to go to the station to catch the train it made more sense to buy the ticket at the office. Not every station has a TVM so if you are forced to collect your ticket there it might mean an inconvenient and expensive extra journey.

If every city region had a similarly efficient fare and ticketing structure as London, there would be no need for ticket offices for local journeys. But at present they don't. Similarly if there was a straightforward and easily understandable national fares structure (like – I don't know _ in Sweden?) the need for ticket offices would be less.

None of this however takes away from the importance of a human staff presence at stations. Few people expect this at rural halts like Berney Arms (the equivalent of bus stops), but surely any station serving a reasonably sized settlement should have at least one human being on duty whenever trains are running. It's less important that this person is behind a booking office window, but if it's there, why not use it?

Most overseas tourists aren't gallivanting around the UK by train - and those that are, will buy a Britrail pass before travelling as it's cheaper and easier.

Continually citing edge cases won't change the policy, because the edge cases are just that - very small numbers, marginal revenue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

Just as you are posting your own flawed argument

People of whatever age etc don’t fit into some nice model based on quoting statistics. It’s equally illogical to say because your parents are over 70 and can use technology then everyone else can

I am (very nearly) 70 - I happily buy e tickets -my over 70 partially sighted partner in the same age group really struggles.

And - as we say - this isn’t just about buying tickets. There’s a lot more to it than that

Once again I doubt anyone will say change isn’t necessary. It’s the depth and speed of this that is the issue

The consultation is already a shambles. Something that was so (apparently) good has tripped at pretty much the first hurdle

I understand you have faith in consultations. Can’t say I share that based on what has happened so far

So how does your partner cope with a printed bit of cardboard which fails on the readability for a partially sighted person?

A mobile device can enlarge the text, do voice playout of what is on screen.

 

[yorksrob]

Most overseas tourists aren't gallivanting around the UK by train - and those that are, will buy a Britrail pass before travelling as it's cheaper and easier.

Continually citing edge cases won't change the policy, because the edge cases are just that - very small numbers, marginal revenue.

A typical excuse from those who want to enshrine poor service quality in the railway network.

The Tories who are driving these changes, and their fellow travellers are increasingly being shown up for their lack of interest in the needs of passengers.

 

[Peterthegreat]

A typical excuse from those who want to enshrine poor service quality in the railway network.

The Tories who are driving these changes, and their fellow travellers are increasingly being shown up for their lack of interest in the needs of passengers.

Absolutely.

 

[A0]

The consultation is already a shambles. Something that was so (apparently) good has tripped at pretty much the first hurdle

I understand you have faith in consultations. Can’t say I share that based on what has happened so far

I think the point you misunderstand is that the consultation is about something *which is going to happen* - it's not about stopping or reversing it. It is about ensuring mitigations are in place where appropriate. If people started looking at it differently and rather than this whole "save the ticket office" nonsense, focused on ensuring that whatever barriers they have which prevent them using online or TVMs is addressed, they would find it more meaningful. Instead it's the same old luddite thing of "it mustn't change" and people who are unhappy with this tend to be unhappy with pretty much any change that's happened in their adult life.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

A typical excuse from those who want to enshrine poor service quality in the railway network.

The Tories who are driving these changes, and their fellow travellers are increasingly being shown up for their lack of interest in the needs of passengers.

No, it's a statement of fact. And other countries have already gone further than is being proposed here. If you wish to be a ludfite, fine, but society will leave you behind and that's your choice.

That almost 9 in 10 tickets aren't bought at a ticket office, shows you're the one who seems not to understand the needs of passengers as nobody has forced people to use apps or the internet - they've chosen to do so.

 

[northwichcat]

Most overseas tourists aren't gallivanting around the UK by train - and those that are, will buy a Britrail pass before travelling as it's cheaper and easier.

No. Many are making one journey when they arrive and another when they depart, so they will use the train but won't have any use for Britrail or another other rover tickets.

They might turn up at Heathrow Airport and find themselves presented with London Underground, Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express options and might need the different options explaining to them.

Or they might turn up at Manchester Airport and find the service they have an advance ticket for is showing is cancelled, so they might attempt to buy a new ticket if there's no ticket office where they can go an explain the situation.

It's also possible those staying in London might choose to do a day trip to Oxford by train, or those staying in Manchester might do a day trip to Liverpool or York.

 

[NeilCr]

Most overseas tourists aren't gallivanting around the UK by train - and those that are, will buy a Britrail pass before travelling as it's cheaper and easier.

Continually citing edge cases won't change the policy, because the edge cases are just that - very small numbers, marginal revenue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==



So how does your partner cope with a printed bit of cardboard which fails on the readability for a partially sighted person?

A mobile device can enlarge the text, do voice playout of what is on screen.

Because it's something tangible she can put in her purse and find abd produce easily

A mobile device - whatever the whizzy bits added- is more difficult to use quickly. And she has to work her way through the menu etc which isn't that easy - voice play out whatever

Do you have any experience of knowing someone who uses such a device with the bits added? Your parents perhaps? Because you seem to be very theoretical in your approach

And again you ignore all the other parts - finding the right platform/is the train on time etc etc on a station like Ramsgate

We were talking about this over lunch. She'd been watching/listening to a programme where a disabled person had been on a station and pushed the help button and got no response. If they can't get it right now...

It's also illuminating to read Tanni Grey-Thompson on the subject today

 

[daveo]

Two possible outcomes of all this -
1 . The consultations and deliberations drag on until close to the election, at which point the caring government announce that they have heard the views of people and are cancelling the plans.

or

2. Considering people would bee expecting / pressurising Labour to say they would reverse the closures the decision is made quickly and the TOCs are placed under DfT pressure to take urgent action to remove or repurpose ticket office spaces so that any hopes of re-opening would be grossly expensive or impossible.

 

[yorksrob]

No, it's a statement of fact. And other countries have already gone further than is being proposed here. If you wish to be a ludfite, fine, but society will leave you behind and that's your choice.

That almost 9 in 10 tickets aren't bought at a ticket office, shows you're the one who seems not to understand the needs of passengers as nobody has forced people to use apps or the internet - they've chosen to do so.

That booking halls such as Manchester Piccadilly and Euston have been caught up in this shambles, illustrates that this pathetic exercise has nothing whatsoever to do with moulding booking office capacities around passenger needs.

Tory lies and cuts is all it amounts to.

 

[Alex C.]

I think there is an argument for changing the role of ticket office staff over a longer period of time - but to do so means we need:

- Fares reform (simplification and all tickets available from all retail channels)
- Revenue enforcement reform (getting the wrong ticket should not result in a criminal record, fraud offences are available for deliberate actions)
- A better way of dealing with turn up and go assistance for passengers who require it.

There are also a lot of stations which are already unstaffed and might give a false sense of security around removing ticket offices - but two things which I think temper this are that I saw a lot of cases of passengers travelling once or twice a year (e.g to visit relatives) who would buy their tickets in advance and travel into a large station to do this, usually on the bus - I also saw passengers who needed assistance deliberately travelling to/from large stations where they knew there would be support.

In my local station (Fratton), the ticket office queue takes up almost all of the pre-gateline area. Is the proposal really to put the ticket seller into the queue area when there is a full functional booking office they can use? What benefit does that offer to anyone? There is no station to 'roam' around.

Ultimately, i suspect multi purpose station roles will become common (advice, selling tickets, assisting passengers who need help) and this isn't a bad thing - during disruption, having someone visible on the platform who can sell tickets from a mobile device is probably quite handy but given most stations are barriered, what does a passenger who needs help do when the 'journey maker' is dealing with something on the platform?

 

[jon0844]

Peddling the flawed argument about an "ageing" population though. Her argument seems to be those in their 80s struggle with technology - implication anyone over the age of 80 will struggle with technology. But that's illogical - my parents who are in their 70s are completely au fait with technology and using smart phones etc - they won't suddenly stop being familiar with it when they turn 80 in a few years time.

My dad now has dementia and for some years leading up to his worsening condition, he begun to forget how to do things on his phone - and now can't use one at all. Now at this point he's not travelling by train anymore anyway, but there was a gradual decline that will likely affect a lot of people as they get older.

For one thing, someone very confused could lead someone at a ticket office to consider a duty of care over the passenger, rather than someone just buying a ticket to somewhere from a TVM and then getting lost.

 

[NeilCr]

I think the point you misunderstand is that the consultation is about something *which is going to happen* - it's not about stopping or reversing it. It is about ensuring mitigations are in place where appropriate. If people started looking at it differently and rather than this whole "save the ticket office" nonsense, focused on ensuring that whatever barriers they have which prevent them using online or TVMs is addressed, they would find it more meaningful. Instead it's the same old luddite thing of "it mustn't change" and people who are unhappy with this tend to be unhappy with pretty much any change that's happened in their adult life.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

I think if you are reduced to insulting people who don't agree with you "Luddite", "nonsense" you are part of the way at least to losing the argument. As I say most understand the need for change - it's the how and when that's the issue. I'd go for a station by station review - not the broadbrush approach currently envisaged

I fully understand what the consultation is "supposed to be doing"

The fact that it (which you seem to have great faith in) has already been cocked up and had to be extended is hardly going to give people any faith in the process.