@Tazi Hupefi is wrong to claim that ticket offices "can't" sell Advance tickets on the day anyway, for example. Instead what has happened is that they've been told they mustn't do so, in order to justify this round of de-staffing using low sales figures.
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I meant in a professional capacity do the Payzone shops hand out a till roll ticket or is it e-tickets?
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That is just a conspiracy theory.
It's beyond doubt that Northern have put extra restrictions on sales in place just a few months before attempting to close nearly all of those sales outlets. Presumably your view is that this is some kind of coincidence? I'm not that naive.
Points I haven't seen raised in the first 10 pages or so - apologies if they were raised later!
The "only 10% of tickets purchased from ticket offices" figure seems highly misleading - while I'm sure it's true, it completely excludes services provided by ticket offices that aren't tickets sold (like refunds or routeing advice during disruption - in one case I've specifically had Cambridge concourse staff direct me to the ticket office for such a question). It also makes no effort to distinguish from "obstinate" customers who used the ticket office to do something doable without one, and those who needed a ticket office to complete their transaction.
LNER says they won't be selling Rovers on their TVMs or onboard, only in ticket offices. Would a customer traveling from Berwick to Darlington, intending to purchase (say) an All Lines Rover, thus be allowed to travel free?
The "only 10% of tickets purchased from ticket offices" figure seems highly misleading - while I'm sure it's true, it completely excludes services provided by ticket offices that aren't tickets sold (like refunds or routeing advice during disruption - in one case I've specifically had Cambridge concourse staff direct me to the ticket office for such a question). It also makes no effort to distinguish from "obstinate" customers who used the ticket office to do something doable without one, and those who needed a ticket office to complete their transaction.
The lack of sales of pre departure advances by Northern ticket offices would have had no impact whatsoever on the decisions announced the other day in the consultation. Avanti are closing all their offices, WMR are reducing down to six hubs across the west midlands, Northern are reducing to 19 from 147. There will be no ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly or Euston or New Street. It is for want of a better phrase it is a scorched earth policy. Ashton-Under-Lyne or Barnsley or any other proposed Northern ticket office selling a few thousand extra tickets that have been made online only is completely irrelevant. If you believe that Northern management have manipulated sales deliberately to sway the process you are being ridiculous.
railfan99
Established Member
'Journey Maker' joins 'customers' (much in use in Australia, despite government-owned V/Line surveying passengers and finding only 12 per cent liked 'customer' as "the word") and 'guest' (yuk - used by rail operator Journey Beyond that runs 'Indian Pacific', 'The Overland' and 'The Ghan', and which is now owned by USA's Hornblower Cruises) as another description I intensely dislike.
We're passengers, pure and simple.
With that sort of rubbishy description, the outcome is bound to have been decided before 'consultation' started.
Perhaps the only recourse is to assemble a delegation of locals who use rail to meet with their local MP and demand a rethink, and preferably, the busier ticket offices staying open for a reasonable period daily.
It'd be best if any such group came from across the political spectrum: I doubt it'd go down well with say a local Conservative MP if those attending all just happened to be members of a local Labour branch, or Greens, or from the local trade union office.
Surely with your very large population, you can afford many well used stations to have a booking office, especially if your ticket machines don't accept cash. (Being on a Eurailpass, I rarely need to use UK ticket offices, unless booking a seat).
We're passengers, pure and simple.
With that sort of rubbishy description, the outcome is bound to have been decided before 'consultation' started.
Perhaps the only recourse is to assemble a delegation of locals who use rail to meet with their local MP and demand a rethink, and preferably, the busier ticket offices staying open for a reasonable period daily.
It'd be best if any such group came from across the political spectrum: I doubt it'd go down well with say a local Conservative MP if those attending all just happened to be members of a local Labour branch, or Greens, or from the local trade union office.
Surely with your very large population, you can afford many well used stations to have a booking office, especially if your ticket machines don't accept cash. (Being on a Eurailpass, I rarely need to use UK ticket offices, unless booking a seat).
Booking office clerks at many locations do venture out of their offices, you know. Never mind being in two places at once, these new roles won't be in any places. It's a precursor to destaffing stations.
Could you please quantify "most of Europe"? All anyone has mentioned is Sweden. That's one country.
You can cross Germany, Austria, Poland and Switzerland off of your list for a start, I've used booking offices in all four.
This reminds me of those people on social media a couple of years ago who trilled about how brilliant working from home was (posting from the comfort of their sun lounger), how in their view no one needed to socialise in person any more because they could just use Zoom. Well I have two words for them, and the second one is "off". Loneliness is a very real problem in our society, and I don't believe that it's a coincidence that the loneliest age group are 16-24 year olds, the ones most on 'social' media. I'll stick to greeting and chatting to shopkeepers as they weigh out some mince for me. It keeps me sane, you can keep your miserable world where you just get barked at by the self-scan.
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Has it not occurred to you that people only post when something goes wrong? Why would someone bother to start a thread to say "I asked a question at a booking office today and they were very helpful"?
Those experiences are the exception. They are not "typical" of the circa 100 million booking office transactions every year.
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I totally agree with you.
I resigned from my first job where I'd worked from 1984 to 2008 because I was fed up with working from home alone all the time (I'd been able to work from home since something like 1992, but the bean counters worked out they could pay less for office space when they encouraged it). I resigned from a voluntary post last year because it had turned into a Zoom-only remote role (after Covid) with no meetings in person. I hate supermarket self-checkouts. I always use railway ticket offices when I can, to buy tickets on the day. Like you, I value human interactions and always chat politely to people with whom I interact.
The part justification for this change is that "only" 10% of tickets are bought from ticket offices these days, but as others have already pointed out, this means that far more than 10% of passengers use them. Personally, I know what ticket I want to buy and I hate having to prod a machine with irrelevant information in order to buy it, I can ask for the ticket I want from a person and it's simple, this includes split tickets when I want to buy tham.
I don't know what real business would annoy a significant percentage of its customers in this way, but the railways aren't real businesses and the puppet strings are controlled elsewhere anyway.
I've also always found the staff at Wilmslow station very helpful, happy to give advice when they can and also happy to accept my word if they don't know or at least be prepared to look things up. I note that there are ticket offices in which staff are a disgrace and give others a bad name, but based on reports here and not my own experience.
I will be sorry when my local ticket office goes but will be able to buy my last-minute tickets from home before I walk to the station, using this site's booking engine of course, and it was helpful to learn that I can get a full refund if my plans change by the time I arrive at the station.
I'm not sure that the average TVM can be described as "simpler". Even if you know your way around them, the screens require quite sharp jabbing compared to the light tough of a smartphone.
Then would you please have a word with various government ministers and officials who variously take helicopter flights for journeys easily doable by train, order brand new kit (MoD kit, 442 refurbishments, Furrey & Frey, you name it) at £££ only to send it straight into mothballs because of the cost, and shovel money into the likes of BAE Systems, Agility Trains, and underwear saleswomen.
If we did away with the government, we'd save a lot more than just their salaries.
Again, how would I know? I don't live in South Wales, despite the WAG thinking that Wales ends there. Looking at that webpage they can retail a handful of ticket types, most of which will only be available for journeys within the local area, avoiding the pitfalls of TOC-specific fares et al. ALRs (and probably 1st class tickets in general) aren't on the list.
daodao
Established Member
I don't quite understand why all the TOCs are not following Avanti's lead and closing all their ticket offices. If they aren't needed at London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly, they aren't needed anywhere. @A0wen and @Tazi Hupefi have clearly explained repeatedly that ticket offices are obsolescent, along with TVMs in due course. The Luddites on this site and elsewhere will just have to adapt. The decision has clearly been made in principle by the DfT, and the arguments are surely just about the transition, which I accept is abrupt, but unfortunately since Covid the railways have become a financial disaster and rapidly implemented cuts are essential. It isn't a party political issue; evidence from London suggests that Labour will support these proposals, albeit with a few minor caveats for nit-picking purposes.
I write as someone who has never previously purchased railway e-tickets, mainly because of the fear of unreliability of mobile phone reception and the potential adverse consequences of not being able to show an e-ticket immediately on demand to a guard/RPI, but who accepts that this position is no longer tenable going forward. The other reason is that I purchase train tickets (as distinct from tram tickets) much less frequently since I moved to my current residence in 2015, because the local rail service is poor and of limited use. @jfollows - I did use the Wilmslow ticket office recently (the only occasion that I have used a rail ticket office in the last year) and did find the lady who served me very helpful.
Incidentally, please could someone clarify when/if the ticket office at Altrincham will be closing, or has it already closed (it was open earlier this year). I could not find it on the list of Northern stations with current ticket offices, but the only rail TOC to serve it is Northern Rail. The office has never sold Metrolink tickets, which have to be purchased using the ticket machines on the platforms or by other means.
I write as someone who has never previously purchased railway e-tickets, mainly because of the fear of unreliability of mobile phone reception and the potential adverse consequences of not being able to show an e-ticket immediately on demand to a guard/RPI, but who accepts that this position is no longer tenable going forward. The other reason is that I purchase train tickets (as distinct from tram tickets) much less frequently since I moved to my current residence in 2015, because the local rail service is poor and of limited use. @jfollows - I did use the Wilmslow ticket office recently (the only occasion that I have used a rail ticket office in the last year) and did find the lady who served me very helpful.
Incidentally, please could someone clarify when/if the ticket office at Altrincham will be closing, or has it already closed (it was open earlier this year). I could not find it on the list of Northern stations with current ticket offices, but the only rail TOC to serve it is Northern Rail. The office has never sold Metrolink tickets, which have to be purchased using the ticket machines on the platforms or by other means.
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I thought you worked for TfW so might have come across them while at work or are you at the wrong end of the train for tickets?
Halwynd
Member
I'll be honest, I don't particularly enjoy travelling by rail anymore. Industrial action, unreliability, P-Code cancellations, uncomfortable trains - sometimes so busy that you can't even get to the toilet, if they're working that is. Increasingly poor value fares and the fact that I live in an area served by TOCs which seem to be amongst the worst: Avanti, TPE and Northern, just makes it worse.
For these reasons, for the last year or so my rail travel has been limited to the odd local journey. For the whole of 2022 it was less than 250 miles, and 200 of those were on one return trip on TPE (a thoroughly miserable experience). Pre-Covid, particularly when Virgin were operating the West Coast franchise, I was using the railway to travel many thousands of miles a year. No more.
Now the railway's Sales Prevention Officers want to make things even worse.
It's hard to explain, but as someone who is pro-rail and a life-long enthusiast of the railway, I've become so disillussioned and fed up with what it has become that I feel I just don't want to use it any more.
For these reasons, for the last year or so my rail travel has been limited to the odd local journey. For the whole of 2022 it was less than 250 miles, and 200 of those were on one return trip on TPE (a thoroughly miserable experience). Pre-Covid, particularly when Virgin were operating the West Coast franchise, I was using the railway to travel many thousands of miles a year. No more.
Now the railway's Sales Prevention Officers want to make things even worse.
It's hard to explain, but as someone who is pro-rail and a life-long enthusiast of the railway, I've become so disillussioned and fed up with what it has become that I feel I just don't want to use it any more.
Again, I'm with you here, I often no longer enjoy travelling by train and make journeys out of necessity rather than choice. Avanti a case in point, I don't enjoy travelling to London any more with them. Local services into Manchester fine, preferable to driving. TPE is a joke, I simply don't travel with them at all.
I think that this move is going to drive more people than just you away from the railway, plenty of people for whom the fares system is baffling will give up now they have to use a machine and travel by alternative means instead. Many of them have a choice. Many of them used to use the train as an occasional pleasure, which will no longer be pleasant. Is this what is desired by this change? No, it's penny-pinching to save expense at the cost of reducing income. At the very least, reform the fares system first, however the will and ability to do this is non-existent, it's just something that politicians and some railway people talk about without doing much about it.
vikingdriver
Member
- Joined
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It's actually minimal. We are encouraged to point people in the direction of those who can help where possible, time permitting. This is to minimise delays and also for safety. Rushing to set up a cab because you've been delayed by providing 'customer service' is an excellent precursor to having an operational incident.
No. They have given their opinions. Just because they think that ticket offices are obsolescent does not make it so. Even if the government agrees with them.
Hastily implemented cuts are a political choice. Many other European countries have chosen to invest in their railways, rather than accelerate the decline.
Maybe I do. Why would that mean that I'd be familiar with a scheme that only exists in South Wales? You may as well ask an EMR guard how often they see a Network Railcard - just because their employer goes to London, doesn't mean that all of their staff do.
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All symptoms of the government-instituted managed decline.
Quite apart from the fact that drivers aren't trained in ticketing and will have no idea whether they are giving good advice or bad. These days the response to "is this the train to X?" has to be "what kind of ticket have you got?"
Halwynd
Member
Spot on. In the grand scheme of things it is penny pinching and I have a feeling the loss of revenue, goodwill and negative PR will at some point ffar outweigh the savings. Not to mention the effect on those less fortunate; the blind and some more elderly folk perhaps not regular rail users and unused the complexities of rail ticketing, being just a couple of examples. It's so frustrating when the people making these decisions concentrate solely on the cost of something and forget or ignore the value of it.
Whistler40145
Established Member
Would the model that MerseyRail put in place work, whereby the ticket office is combined within a shop?
Altrincham (& Horwich Parkway) are run by TFGM not Northern. TFGM has confirmed there are no proposals to close them (or change their hours).
Halwynd
Member
Yes, I agree. The day this government is ejected from office can't come soon enough for me and I can only hope that whatever replaces them can see the value of our railway and how to get the best from it.
Seehof
Member
I totally agree with all the comments that the closure of ticket offices, a political decision, is another factor in making rail travel even more unpleasant. We welcome many people from all the over the world, a lot of people from the USA have no idea how to use trains. I can understand little stations losing their office like Hebden Bridge but Birmingham New Street, Liverpool Street? Are they crazy?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It didn't really work for Merseyrail because they are bad ticket offices and bad shops. Only a few left.
What might work would be to encourage actual convenience shops into stations and have them sell tickets via PayPoint/Payzone, though.
I don't think convenience stores selling railway tickets is going to be viable.
For starters convenience stores (the Co-op's Tesco Express and Sainsbury's Local etc) are moving customers towards self checkout and away from staffed counters in their stores. They won't want to bring in a system that requires more staffing at a counter.
Selling tickets requires a significant amount of training (it's what ticket office staff on here tell us). That just isn't going to work in your average Tesco Express or Co-op.
Purchasing tickets at a shop counter will have the effect of slowing up the queue of shop customers which isn't what they will want.
The commission on railway ticketing sales is likely to be tiny, an unlikely to be profitable for the shop. Mistakes will be practically impossible to correct (if Paypoint is anything to go by) which can end up costing the shop money.
For starters convenience stores (the Co-op's Tesco Express and Sainsbury's Local etc) are moving customers towards self checkout and away from staffed counters in their stores. They won't want to bring in a system that requires more staffing at a counter.
Selling tickets requires a significant amount of training (it's what ticket office staff on here tell us). That just isn't going to work in your average Tesco Express or Co-op.
Purchasing tickets at a shop counter will have the effect of slowing up the queue of shop customers which isn't what they will want.
The commission on railway ticketing sales is likely to be tiny, an unlikely to be profitable for the shop. Mistakes will be practically impossible to correct (if Paypoint is anything to go by) which can end up costing the shop money.
"I know plenty of older people who use the railways but won't go near a smartphone. I also know of others that with deepening old age setting in have the lost the ability to use one".
This proposal serves to disenfranchise a growing part of the population, you don't need to have dementia to be incapable of using internet or mobile phones. Simply losing a password or forgetting the steps required to use a website is a reality for many people, not just the elderly. And these are the folks who probably rely on public transport the most, perhaps they cannot drive or are no longer allowed to. Just imagine if this proposal disenfranchised disabled people, there would be uproar.
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This proposal serves to disenfranchise a growing part of the population, you don't need to have dementia to be incapable of using internet or mobile phones. Simply losing a password or forgetting the steps required to use a website is a reality for many people, not just the elderly. And these are the folks who probably rely on public transport the most, perhaps they cannot drive or are no longer allowed to. Just imagine if this proposal disenfranchised disabled people, there would be uproar.
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Now 22400 signatures so moving steadily towards parliament.
Erm - that 2 million is not those who are registered blind or partially sighted.
Key information and statistics on sight loss in the UK
If you're affected by sight loss, we're here for you
www.rnib.org.uk
So those figures are saying it's only 340,000 who are actually registered blind or partially sighted. They are part of the 2 million you've quoted, but 1.7m of those simply have vision worse than 6/12 Snellen. And if your vision can be corrected with glasses or contact lenses you can hold a driving licence, so the way the RNIB have framed it is slightly misleading. So if your vision can be corrected by glasses or contact lenses to an extent that you'd be able to hold a driving licence (even if you choose not to), you can't claim to be blind or partially sighted to the extent it affects your life or ability to use equipment.
Driving eyesight rules
The eyesight rules to pass your driving test and for whenever you're driving.
My view is for those registered blind, simply offer them a national rail pass - the cost would be minimal as the majority are unlikely to spend a significant amount, much as is the case with the bus passes available for people with sight loss at present.
It works if they're only able to sell basic, local tickets in the local corner store, but they are never going to be able to sell complex reservations.
It helps if you actually bothered to read the post I was responding to...... the previous poster wasn't just talking about ticket offices. And I maintain such changes have happened across Europe as well - when did you last see a bus with a conductor in France or Italy ? I don't remember shop assistants packing my groceries when I was in Carrefour, Intermarche or Super U on holiday in France.
Erm - that 2 million is not those who are registered blind or partially sighted.
Key information and statistics on sight loss in the UK
If you're affected by sight loss, we're here for you
So those figures are saying it's only 340,000 who are actually registered blind or partially sighted. They are part of the 2 million you've quoted, but 1.7m of those simply have vision worse than 6/12 Snellen. And if your vision can be corrected with glasses or contact lenses you can hold a driving licence, so the way the RNIB have framed it is slightly misleading. So if your vision can be corrected by glasses or contact lenses to an extent that you'd be able to hold a driving licence (even if you choose not to), you can't claim to be blind or partially sighted to the extent it affects your life or ability to use equipment.
Driving eyesight rules
The eyesight rules to pass your driving test and for whenever you're driving.www.gov.uk
My view is for those registered blind, simply offer them a national rail pass - the cost would be minimal as the majority are unlikely to spend a significant amount, much as is the case with the bus passes available for people with sight loss at present.
Yep
We both quoted the same thing. I said with sight loss - as did you
My partner was finally diagnosed as being partially sighted after a considerable time and deterioration. For much of that time (before official confirmation) she had many of the same struggles she has now - without the use of supportive aids
I don't doubt that there are others in the same position
In terms of cost saving ISTR you suggesting a figure of £1 billion around to buy railcards for the blind and partially sighted. If I have that wrong - apologies.
What are the projected savings on the closing of ticket offices (I haven't readily found a figure) so we can compare
Maybe not - but perhaps there's a business opportunity here for the various travel agent chains to offer that ? Hays Travel as the largest have over 400 branches nationwide and there are a total of ~3,500 Travel Agent branches in the UK now.
Why should it - they are exercising that “freedom of choice “ which successive Tory governments have told us is so important. Gets a bit awkward when the choice is in once ITFC the government!
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