Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Bletchleyite]

TVMs at unstaffed stations started taking cards many years ago, probably from new for those ones. The staffed stations were cash only at TVMs, which was always given as a key reason they couldn't offer ToD.

The TVM in the MToGo at Liverpool Central (on the left as you go in) takes card. I've used it, and I wouldn't have done if it was cash only as I don't use cash for train tickets. It may have been a retrofit though. I've just checked my bank and I have a couple of debits from it.

I agree the ones in staffed stations didn't originally.

 

[jfollows]

I was lucky enough to be in Japan a couple of weeks ago and had no problem buying tickets from machines there for local and underground services.
However they don't appear to have a mad fares system there, and on reflection I think that reform of our fares system - long promised and hardly implemented - should have been a pre-requisite for wholesale closures of ticket offices.
In Japan I bought single tickets for journeys I wanted to make immediately, the fares are very low and there's pretty much just one fare for the journey.
However when it came to long-distance Shinkansen journeys I found ticket offices at major stations invaluable. Again I bought tickets for immediate travel, and it was simple to do so with assistance from the excellent ticket office staff who could advise which trains I could use and get the seats I wanted on them. I didn't have a rail pass, I simply bought tickets when I wanted to travel, again single journeys at reasonable prices.
So I'm meandering a bit, but I think that closing ticket office in major stations will be a problem for tourists, but not for locals since they'll mainly travel into cities from the suburbs or further anyway.
Anyway, I feel this is premature and rushed, especially in the light of the inability to reform our fares system.

EDIT Oh yes, every ticket machine I used in Japan took cash in both notes and coins. Yes, Japan is still a country in which cash is used a lot more than here, but I don't think this excuses the failure of our railway ticket machines being able to take cash - it's just being cheap and cutting corners at the expense of meeting customers' requirements.

 

[Starmill]

West Horndon is an especially unpleasant example. Ticket office proposed for closure, with de-staffing explicit, no floorwker or 'Journey Maker' staff. Therefore no customer-facing staff at all at the station or onboard any trains serving it...

 

[Lewisham2221]

West Horndon is an especially unpleasant example. Ticket office proposed for closure, with de-staffing explicit, no floorwker or 'Journey Maker' staff. Therefore no customer-facing staff at all at the station or onboard any trains serving it...

We must be reading different proposals then - Non Retail Services Annex B clearly states the intention to retain gateline staff and/floor walkers for at least 18 hours a day

 

[Harold Hill]

Our society is being torn to pieces. Remember park keepers, bus conductors, shop assistants packing our bags, police stations, community centres, youth clubs, swimming pools?

It's heartbreaking

 

[metrail]

Where will I buy the rover and ranger tickets when this happens?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where will I buy the rover and ranger tickets when this happens?

On Northern you can buy them from TVMs, yes, even the 14 day First Class All Line Rover. Hopefully this will roll out to all TOCs.

 

[metrail]

There is no way that station staff will last for very long once the offices have been closed. It's clearly a step to get through the consultation in order to sway the process. Surprised that a major city like Hull will lose theirs.

 

[rb124]

Slightly tongue in cheek comment, but if you are going to restrict access for a variety of assistance needs etc, then why would anyone bother with creating level access, DDA compliant toilets etc... Will people question the logic of spending £££££ on that infrastructure if you follow through on a cut as savage as this to save £/p?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Where will I buy the rover and ranger tickets when this happens?

According to the East Midlands Railway FAQ document:

88% of customer transactions already happen without customers setting foot in a ticket office. Where any ticket types are currently only available in a Ticket Office, we are moving as many as possible of these onto digital
channels and looking to make them available via TVMs.
Train operators’ commitment to providing the right ticket at the right price
has not changed. Across the network staff will be available at the right time
and in the right locations according to customer demand, helping
customers to plan journeys and use digital and self-service ticketing - with
many colleagues having hand-held devices. At smaller stations, mobile
teams will be deployed to provide customer assistance on a daily or weekly
basis.
Colleagues will be available at stations to guide customers during any
transition period, if required.
Ticket office facilities will remain open at the busiest stations and
interchanges, selling the full range of tickets. If a customer is unable to buy
a specific ticket before boarding the train because it was unavailable at the
station, they would be able to buy one during their journey.

 

[yorksrob]

.

It says to me it's probably likely to be some kind of arrangement where a mobile staff member drives about according to where booked assistance is required, does the assist, and then goes to the next one. Probably goes back and picks up the rubbish and locks the waiting rooms and toilets later in the day.

Hardly skilled career type employment compared to existing ticket office roles.

Indeed. Maybe it's me, but I can't see toilet provision surviving this sort of arrangement very long.

 

[lyndhurst25]

It’s not the big stations like Hull that I am worried about as there will still be plenty of staff around to look after the place. It’s places like Hebden Bridge and Settle, where the person in the ticket office could well be only member of staff at the station. How long before the Travel Eagles, or whatever they are calling them, no longer bother to turn up, station toilets gets taken out of use, waiting rooms shut, leaflet racks left empty, things get neglected and smashed up. I remember when places like Gainsborough Lea Road were still staffed in the late 1980s, and how grotty and unwelcoming they became after staffing was withdrawn.

 

[pitdiver]

In my copy of the Pensioner's version of OTM (TfL Staff magazine)that i received this morning was the following note.

JUST THE TICKET

Booking Tickets and Reserving Seats
"Staff travel cards (Box Ticket) and Status Pass holders will now have received information in an email from RDG on how to register with RSTL online, the portal where you'll be able to book tickets online and reserve seats.
PTAC holders (Me and wife included) cannot currently register for this service, but can continue to book tickets at Booking Offices or with the train Operator itself.
TfL staff travel are in discussions with Rail Staff travel to roll this out to all PTAC holders in the next 12 months"

I just hope they do so in time as I have no idea where my nearest open Booking Office will be or how I will go about booking with the Train Operator seeing that I have to obviously show my PTAC. To someone who knows what the are. I have booked directly with CS. In thsi instance we had to show our PTACs to the attendant when checking in at Euston and Fort William.

 

[A0]

Our society is being torn to pieces. Remember park keepers, bus conductors, shop assistants packing our bags, police stations, community centres, youth clubs, swimming pools?

It's heartbreaking

It's no different across most of Europe despite the rose-tinted glasses of many.

The reality is society has changed - and if you want somebody to 'pack your bags' when shopping simply order your shopping online, they do that and then deliver it to your door - whereas in days of yore you then had to load it into your car or lug it home.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

It’s not the big stations like Hull that I am worried about as there will still be plenty of staff around to look after the place. It’s places like Hebden Bridge and Settle, where the person in the ticket office could well be only member of staff at the station. How long before the Travel Eagles, or whatever they are calling them, no longer bother to turn up, station toilets gets taken out of use, waiting rooms shut, leaflet racks left empty, things get neglected and smashed up. I remember when places like Gainsborough Lea Road were still staffed in the late 1980s, and how grotty and unwelcoming they became after staffing was withdrawn.

Very, very few people pick up leaflets nowadays - paper based communication is in decline - best evidenced by the circulation of daily newspapers over the last 20 years.

 

[yorksrob]

I hope this is allowed but I am going to copy a
post I put in an earlier thread (which was closed) as opposed to starting all over again!

I'd guess that those who will be more affected by this are thE ones who do not use the railways that much - as opposed to members of this forum. Those who don't have in depth ticketing knowledge, are hesitant of the internet etc etc. I do get the issues but just feel it's sad that this is happening to public transport

Anyway here is my previous post

"Deep breath!

It’s a complex subject. Complicated a bit by a number of posters with deep understanding and knowledge of the ticketing systems. And by lots of scenarios

If I may add another one. My partner and I use Ramsgate Station. Quite a fair sized one ( to me anyway) apart from big city stations. Two ticket office windows - one TVM. Four platforms reached by an underpass from the main ticket hall/waiting area/Pumpkin/whatever

I am fine. I use e-tickets and get on with it. OTOH my partner is partially sighted

She doesn’t use the train much by herself but a couple of weeks back she did have to go on a local journey. She was eternally grateful to the ticket clerk who helped her with the ticket, the right platform and train times. She certainly would struggle hugely with a TVM

We live separately - obviously, I could help with e tickets but that wouldn’t always be possible and would eat into her independence

As it is she knows she can go straight to the ticket office. If it came to her having to find someone in the station to ask that would be more difficult. She was cross with me recently as I bought some new trainers. Up till then she knew it was me because of the distinctive pattern on the old ones! So locating the right person on a biggish station might be interesting

In the great scheme of things it’s not major. She doesn’t travel much by herself but taking away the ticket office would probably stop her completely. And that’s sad - there will be others like her - who, however much we say do this or do that - would be the same

That doesn’t strike me to be what a railway should be about

So (finally) at Ramsgate I could see the argument for only having one ticket window with the other person redeployed - helping out with the TVM(s) for example. But not doing away with the whole thing

I know from my previous experience of queueing there that a) people do have complicated questions (not necessarily about ticketing) b) they like dealing with a human being and c) they like a focal point to go directly to

Sorry for the length of this"

This is a very good post, raising pertinent points.

If you were remodelling the staff presence towards passenger needs, at a busy medium sized station like Ramsgate, a decent outcome could well be to redeploy one member of staff to activities outside the ticket office, while keeping the other available to deal with ticketing queries.

Unfortunately though, this proposal has never been about improving customer service and is primarily about cuts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

I was lucky enough to be in Japan a couple of weeks ago and had no problem buying tickets from machines there for local and underground services.
However they don't appear to have a mad fares system there, and on reflection I think that reform of our fares system - long promised and hardly implemented - should have been a pre-requisite for wholesale closures of ticket offices.
In Japan I bought single tickets for journeys I wanted to make immediately, the fares are very low and there's pretty much just one fare for the journey.
However when it came to long-distance Shinkansen journeys I found ticket offices at major stations invaluable. Again I bought tickets for immediate travel, and it was simple to do so with assistance from the excellent ticket office staff who could advise which trains I could use and get the seats I wanted on them. I didn't have a rail pass, I simply bought tickets when I wanted to travel, again single journeys at reasonable prices.
So I'm meandering a bit, but I think that closing ticket office in major stations will be a problem for tourists, but not for locals since they'll mainly travel into cities from the suburbs or further anyway.
Anyway, I feel this is premature and rushed, especially in the light of the inability to reform our fares system.

EDIT Oh yes, every ticket machine I used in Japan took cash in both notes and coins. Yes, Japan is still a country in which cash is used a lot more than here, but I don't think this excuses the failure of our railway ticket machines being able to take cash - it's just being cheap and cutting corners at the expense of meeting customers' requirements.

Indeed. We could have a simple fares system if "fares were very low", but the powers that be have no interest in such reform.

 

[urbophile]

It's no different across most of Europe despite the rose-tinted glasses of many.

The reality is society has changed - and if you want somebody to 'pack your bags' when shopping simply order your shopping online, they do that and then deliver it to your door - whereas in days of yore you then had to load it into your car or lug it home.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==



Very, very few people pick up leaflets nowadays - paper based communication is in decline - best evidenced by the circulation of daily newspapers over the last 20 years.

Who said anything about the rest of Europe? Of course things are different everywhere; technology has changed and peoples' needs are not the same. We've got used to supermarkets, but within living memory most food shops were personal service over the counter. Supermarkets are much more convenient, but only if there are plenty of staff on the floor in case of questions or difficulty. It's the same with stations. The human touch is important.

 

[A0]

This is a very good post, raising pertinent points.

If you were remodelling the staff presence towards passenger needs, at a busy medium sized station like Ramsgate, a decent outcome could well be to redeploy one member of staff to activities outside the ticket office, while keeping the other available to deal with ticketing queries.

Unfortunately though, this proposal has never been about improving customer service and is primarily about cuts.

Except it is being remodelled to reflect the changing habits of the customers - to pretend as you do that we should just continue to fund a couple of guys sitting at a desk for an ever diminishing number of customers and queries is nuts.

Whilst the comment about partially sighted from the previous poster is valid - I pointed out upthread, RNIB figures say there are 340,000 people registered blind in the UK. If removing ticket offices makes it so difficult for them, give them all annual rail passes - the total cost will be minimal - even if everyone of them spent the same amount as the average season ticket (£3,200) the cost would only be £ 1bn a year. The reality is most will spend much, much less than that and some won't use it at all.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Very, very few people pick up leaflets nowadays - paper based communication is in decline - best evidenced by the circulation of daily newspapers over the last 20 years.

Really? I like a well stacked leaflet rack! Northern’s “Coast, Lakes, Dales and Fells” timetable booklets seem to get snapped up as soon as they are put out.

And I’m not just talking about railway leaflets either, certain stations have become de facto Tourist Information Centres for their areas, what with real Tourist Information Centres and local libraries having been scaled back over the same last 20 years. What better place to advertise the attractions in a town than at the point of arrival?

Of course we could all just mange with a ticketing app, bus shelter on the platform, use the toilets in the pub across the road, and join the local Facebook “what’s on in Mytown” group.

 

[A0]

Who said anything about the rest of Europe? Of course things are different everywhere; technology has changed and peoples' needs are not the same. We've got used to supermarkets, but within living memory most food shops were personal service over the counter. Supermarkets are much more convenient, but only if there are plenty of staff on the floor in case of questions or difficulty. It's the same with stations. The human touch is important.

Well usually the cry is 'oh it's all because we followed America's example' when the reality is these things have changed all across Europe.

Personal service over the counter may be in *your* living memory, but it certainly isn't mine - and I grew up in the 1970s and 80s - the weekly shopping was done in Sainsburys / Tescos / Co-op / Fine Fare - all were self service supermarkets.

The human touch *isn't* important - if it were then 90% of tickets would be bought from the ticket office and 10% from TVMs or online - when in fact the proportions are the other way around, so for the overwhelming majority, it isn't important.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

Really? I like a well stacked leaflet rack! Northern’s “Coast, Lakes, Dales and Fells” timetable booklets seem to get snapped up as soon as they are put out.

And I’m not just talking about railway leaflets either, certain stations have become de facto Tourist Information Centres for their areas, what with real Tourist Information Centres and local libraries having been scaled back over the same last 20 years. What better place to advertise the attractions in a town than at the point of arrival?

Of course we could all just mange with a ticketing app, bus shelter on the platform, use the toilets in the pub across the road, and join the local Facebook “what’s on in Mytown” group.

You can give examples of leaflets being "snapped up" all you like - but ask most attractions how many leaflets they are producing and the numbers will be down on 10 or even 20 years ago. If you ask them what are the most important or effective ways of advertising themselves, most will probably say online - having a good website, featuring on the search engines etc etc or even Facebook.

 

[yorksrob]

Except it is being remodelled to reflect the changing habits of the customers - to pretend as you do that we should just continue to fund a couple of guys sitting at a desk for an ever diminishing number of customers and queries is nuts.

Whilst the comment about partially sighted from the previous poster is valid - I pointed out upthread, RNIB figures say there are 340,000 people registered blind in the UK. If removing ticket offices makes it so difficult for them, give them all annual rail passes - the total cost will be minimal - even if everyone of them spent the same amount as the average season ticket (£3,200) the cost would only be £ 1bn a year. The reality is most will spend much, much less than that and some won't use it at all.

This is not true. Reducing some ticket office provision might well be remodelling it to suit modern needs, however there is clearly a need and desire to have a knowledgeable staff member at the railway's shop window available to sell tickets and provide assistance, so getting rid of it all is not customer friendly.

 

[NeilCr]

The human touch *isn't* important - if it were then 90% of tickets would be bought from the ticket office and 10% from TVMs or online - when in fact the proportions are the other way around, so for the overwhelming majority, it isn't important.

But the point is that it “is” important to the 10% who buy tickets that way. I’ve stood behind some of them in queues

As I have said I do understand the difficulties and different arguments but I still find it sad that a public transport organisation is ultimately deterring some of it’s customers

Whatever that percentage may be

ETA

My partner isn’t blind and there will be others like her impacted


How many people in the UK are blind or visually impaired?


There are over 2 million people in the UK living with sight loss. These people meet the international definition of vision impairment and include everyone whose vision is worse than 6/12 Snellen – that is halfway down the optician's letter chart.

Source RNIB

While many of these won’t have the issues that she has - I think your figure of 340k is an underestimate for those who might need an annual ticket/whatever

 

[yorksrob]

Well usually the cry is 'oh it's all because we followed America's example' when the reality is these things have changed all across Europe.

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think that we should blindly follow a bad idea just because a foreign country does it.

 

[Lewisham2221]

For a general idea of how the general public are reacting to this outside of the RailUK bubble, here are some of the top comments from the major UK subreddits:







The general mood is strongly against closures.

I'd argue that's not an accurate representation of the general public though. The majority of social media posts are likely to be in opposition to the proposals, in much the same way that people are far more likely to contact a company to complain about something than they are to compliment it. People who aren't opposed to the plans are far less likely to comment on social media, much more likely to shrug and say "oh well, doesn't bother/affect me".

Ironically, I've seen a lot of "I don't do the internet" posts on social media today, regarding the subject.

 

[Snow1964]

Rail Delivery group has webpage, some snippets

If accepted, the proposed changes would be phased in gradually

The successful trial of single leg pricing on LNER’s routes is another important step in the simplification of fares

WHERE NEEDED, TVMS WILL BE IMPROVED.​

Passenger Assistance app, launched two years ago, enables anyone requiring it to request assistance for their journey at the touch of a button

Make of these whatever you like

Customer Focused Stations

The Rail Delivery Group was set up in 2011 to provide leadership to Britain's rail industry, bringing together the owners of Britain's passenger train operators

www.raildeliverygroup.com

 

[yorksrob]

I'd argue that's not an accurate representation of the general public though. The majority of social media posts are likely to be in opposition to the proposals, in much the same way that people are far more likely to contact a company to complain about something than they are to compliment it. People who aren't opposed to the plans are far less likely to comment on social media, much more likely to shrug and say "oh well, doesn't bother/affect me".

Ironically, I've seen a lot of "I don't do the internet" posts on social media today, regarding the subject.

People who aren't opposed to ticket office closures are likely to be those who already use other methods and therefore are not disadvantaged by the proposals anyway. Therefore its understandable that those negatively affected by the proposals are more likely to be vocal about them.

 

[A0]

This is not true. Reducing some ticket office provision might well be remodelling it to suit modern needs, however there is clearly a need and desire to have a knowledgeable staff member at the railway's shop window available to sell tickets and provide assistance, so getting rid of it all is not customer friendly.

Well actually no there isn't - about 10% of sales are done at ticket offices now - that's on a downward trajectory. It's not suddenly going to jump back to up to 20%, 30%, 50%, no matter how much you state otherwise.

It's why the closure of ticket offices on the Underground didn't have a negative impact. It's why Sweden has already gone down this route - and that's a modern, progressive society, but one, like ours, which has the disabled, the elderly and, no doubt, some refuseniks that "don't like using machines".

The overwhelming majority are OK with self-service of tickets, are already buying from TVMs or using the web / apps - and that will grow. One example, my 17 year old son bought a railcard a couple of months back - when I asked whether he wanted the physical card or an 'electronic' one stored on his phone, there was no question - to quote him "why do I want a plastic card ?"

 

[MikeWM]

Ironically, I've seen a lot of "I don't do the internet" posts on social media today, regarding the subject.

I suspect that's mostly bad phrasing. There's quite a few steps between using the internet from your PC at work or a tablet at home, to having a phone, to having a smartphone using wifi, to having a smartphone on a contract, to using that smartphone to do financial transactions. Each individual step may make some people uncomfortable and for many of us we don't want to go along all of them. (Personally I'm on the 'smartphone using wifi' stage, I don't have or want a contract, and I'm uncomfortable with using a phone to make a financial transaction - so far I've never done so).

 

[Lewisham2221]

People who aren't opposed to ticket office closures are likely to be those who already use other methods and therefore are not disadvantaged by the proposals anyway. Therefore its understandable that those negatively affected by the proposals are more likely to be vocal about them.

Precisely.

Which is why it's not accurate to suggest that the "general mood" of the "general public" is against the closures, based on social media posts alone, which as you say, are most likely to be from those negatively affected.

80%* of social media posts opposing the proposals does not equal 80% of the public opposing the proposals.

*completely made up percentage, just for examples sake

 

[yorksrob]

Well actually no there isn't - about 10% of sales are done at ticket offices now - that's on a downward trajectory. It's not suddenly going to jump back to up to 20%, 30%, 50%, no matter how much you state otherwise.

It's why the closure of ticket offices on the Underground didn't have a negative impact. It's why Sweden has already gone down this route - and that's a modern, progressive society, but one, like ours, which has the disabled, the elderly and, no doubt, some refuseniks that "don't like using machines".

The overwhelming majority are OK with self-service of tickets, are already buying from TVMs or using the web / apps - and that will grow. One example, my 17 year old son bought a railcard a couple of months back - when I asked whether he wanted the physical card or an 'electronic' one stored on his phone, there was no question - to quote him "why do I want a plastic card ?"

If ticket office sales are on a downward trajectory, why not manage ticket office provision down until the 10% has transferred ?

I don't have any faith in this process and see it as an agenda for cuts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

Precisely.

Which is why it's not accurate to suggest that the "general mood" of the "general public" is against the closures, based on social media posts alone, which as you say, are most likely to be from those negatively affected.

80%* of social media posts opposing the proposals does not equal 80% of the public opposing the proposals.

*completely made up percentage, just for examples sake

But it's also not appropriate to assume that the 20% are on board with closures just because the 80% use other methods

 

[A0]

If ticket office sales are on a downward trajectory, why not manage ticket office provision down until the 10% has transferred ?

I don't have any faith in this process and see it as an agenda for cuts.

At what point ? Zero ? - that would be crazy.

You're always going to have some who will refuse to change until the change is "forced" on them - which we saw with 405 line TV, Analogue UHF TV, paying by cheques in shops, to name but a few.