Future of the GWR electrification

[starlight73]

How are these battery techniques going in Europe? I dont think we have any experience in the UK other than some Merseyrail Units that shuffle 1/2m at 40 mph and a class 379 conversion that did PR stunts to greenwashing audiences for 6 months by which time its batteries were absolutely shagged.

The battery class 230 (D-train) is on trial in West London - see this thread

GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

Whilst there is a separate thread specifically for the Greenford Battery Trial, I thought I would start a more general information, movements & discussion thread for the GWR Class 230. Possibly 3 units (numbers n/k at this time) will be moving to Reading TCD in the latter half of this month...

www.railforums.co.uk

Battery trimode FLIRTS are coming to wales (Class 756)

Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

Will they be cleared for Aberdare, Coryton and Bridgend eventually, or is there a reason that can't or won't happen? I don't know much about this sort of thing! Coryton and Bridgend will have to be as they'll be in regular service on these lines. Aberdare will probably be cleared once the...

www.railforums.co.uk

A chiltern class 168 was converted to battery for a trial

Chiltern electrification alternatives being studied...

You wouldn't want a single unit having 6 cars, there's zero operational flexibility there. Better having a mix of 3- and 4-car units so that you can match capacity to demand and detach / attach as necessary. Chiltern presently have a mix of 2-4 car units. For FLIRTs that is probably the...

www.railforums.co.uk

So we have some experience although it might not be as strong as Europe yet.

 

[Taunton]

The battery class 230 (D-train) is on trial in West London - see this thread

Does it ever work? It's diesel today (165126) and has been every time I have passed West Ealing and the set has been at the platform. Just once the battery set was in a siding there.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does it ever work? It's diesel today (165126) and has been every time I have passed West Ealing and the set has been at the platform. Just once the battery set was in a siding there.

Was pictured (and posted in the dedicated thread) as being out on test on Wednesday 19th. It’s not intended to be in regular daily use though, as I’m sure you already knew.

 

[Taunton]

Was pictured (and posted in the dedicated thread) as being out on test on Wednesday 19th. It’s not intended to be in regular daily use though, as I’m sure you already knew.

Well actually I didn't "know". However much more random testing and messing about is required? For comparison, the 1950s battery unit on Aberdeen to Ballater, 45 miles each way, was delivered from Derby, ran some trials for about a week, and then started all day, every day service, including the first trip with invited press on board so must have been arranged in advance.

 

[The exile]

Well actually I didn't "know". However much more random testing and messing about is required? For comparison, the 1950s battery unit on Aberdeen to Ballater, 45 miles each way, was delivered from Derby, ran some trials for about a week, and then started all day, every day service, including the first trip with invited press on board so must have been arranged in advance.

Isn’t the main thing that’s being tested the rapid charging - both in terms of the equipment on the train and the fixed stuff at West Ealing?
One example of something that happened to work “out of the box” doesn’t disprove the need for extensive prototype testing.

 

[jayah]

Hopefully the Oxford Didcot section will be wired and Chippenham to Bristol TM and TM to Filton at some point, there was mention after the HS2 funds were "reallocated" and some mention that the Chippenham to Bristol section would be wired perhaps using cheaper catenary. On a related matter the speed restriction under Steventon Bridge is probably going to be reviewed assuming Network Rail have enough data now on pantograph and wear on the wires now, that is of course assuming the Bridge won't need replacing in the next decade. Its an unfinished project as they say and I even mentioned this to our local Labour candidate for Swindon North when he knocked on my door.

Didcot to Oxford would at least remove the waste and congestion of services terminating at Didcot in both directions and allow speeding up journeys like Goring to Oxford by 15-20mins.

It's difficult to see what actual benefits the other schemes would achieve? The gripes with GWR are high fares and crowding, now that so many former HST routes are regularly 5 car units. Most people are unaware, let alone bothered by whether it runs on diesel or electric.

The project did realise one gain that isn't often recognised, a 100% bi-mode fleet. The operational flexibility and reduction in delays from not having any IET EMUs was worth whatever that cost.

 

[The exile]

It's difficult to see what actual benefits the other schemes would achieve? The gripes with GWR are high fares and crowding, now that so many former HST routes are regularly 5 car units. Most people are unaware, let alone bothered by whether it runs on diesel or electric.

Seen in isolation and in the short term that's probably right (other than reducing emissions). However, with the various aspirations for new stations (potentially up to 9 between Cardiff and Swindon via Bath - though the chances of all coming to fruition are probably slim) , the superior acceleration of emus (over the turbos) is probably vital - not to mention that with the two routes into (and including) Temple Meads electrified, it makes short extensions to allow emu running on some other Metro West suburban services (eg Weston-super-Mare) much more viable.

 

[zwk500]

Didcot to Oxford would at least remove the waste and congestion of services terminating at Didcot in both directions and allow speeding up journeys like Goring to Oxford by 15-20mins.

It's difficult to see what actual benefits the other schemes would achieve? The gripes with GWR are high fares and crowding, now that so many former HST routes are regularly 5 car units. Most people are unaware, let alone bothered by whether it runs on diesel or electric.

Having Bristol Temple Meads electrified allows a range of potential capacity enhancements, even as ad-hoc things for disruption recovery or peak-time relief. A direct benefit would be the Filton Abbey Wood service going to pure EMU, and greater electric use of the IETs already serving Bristol. The Avonmouth line probably needs wires to Weston to make batteries viable from Stapleton Road to Severn Beach.
Equally having both routes to Bristol fully electrified could off a Bristol Parkway to Swindon via Bath service (reverse Temple Meads) that would fulfill a lot of the local cross-bristol demand on a decent length EMU.

The project did realise one gain that isn't often recognised, a 100% bi-mode fleet. The operational flexibility and reduction in delays from not having any IET EMUs was worth whatever that cost.

Is there a data comparison with LNER to discuss this? (Perhaps in a separate thread).

 

[thomalex]

It continues to be an absurdity that a city the size of Bristol in 2024 doesn't have one electrified line. Get it done

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Bristol Temple Meads must be the busiest completely unelectrified station in Europe, surely?

 

[contrex]

Bristol Temple Meads must be the busiest completely unelectrified station in Europe, surely?

if only the LSWR had got there in the 19th century; we could have had the juice rail (VEPs to Waterloo, anyone?)

 

[The exile]

Bristol Temple Meads must be the busiest completely unelectrified station in Europe, surely?

Up there with Sheffield.

 

[paul1609]

The battery class 230 (D-train) is on trial in West London - see this thread

GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

Whilst there is a separate thread specifically for the Greenford Battery Trial, I thought I would start a more general information, movements & discussion thread for the GWR Class 230. Possibly 3 units (numbers n/k at this time) will be moving to Reading TCD in the latter half of this month...

www.railforums.co.uk

Battery trimode FLIRTS are coming to wales (Class 756)

Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

Will they be cleared for Aberdare, Coryton and Bridgend eventually, or is there a reason that can't or won't happen? I don't know much about this sort of thing! Coryton and Bridgend will have to be as they'll be in regular service on these lines. Aberdare will probably be cleared once the...

www.railforums.co.uk

A chiltern class 168 was converted to battery for a trial

Chiltern electrification alternatives being studied...

You wouldn't want a single unit having 6 cars, there's zero operational flexibility there. Better having a mix of 3- and 4-car units so that you can match capacity to demand and detach / attach as necessary. Chiltern presently have a mix of 2-4 car units. For FLIRTs that is probably the...

www.railforums.co.uk

So we have some experience although it might not be as strong as Europe yet.

The D train is a feasibility study for fast charging
The tri mode Flirts havent been constructed yet, but havelimited battery capacity
The Class 168 trial was abandonned as impractical.
I think we are some way off having any meaningful experience in BMUs let alone considering them for major routes.

 

[anthony263]

The D train is a feasibility study for fast charging
The tri mode Flirts havent been constructed yet, but havelimited battery capacity
The Class 168 trial was abandonned as impractical.
I think we are some way off having any meaningful experience in BMUs let alone considering them for major routes.

Tri mode flirts being used on training runs it be interesting to see them in regular service

 

[John R]

Tri mode flirts being used on training runs it be interesting to see them in regular service

Yes, they most definitely have been constructed!

 

[anthony263]

Yes, they most definitely have been constructed!

Them and the 398 tram-trains will. Be a real game changer. In fact I'm predicting the 398s being a victim of their own sucess

 

[GraphitProjekt]

if only the LSWR had got there in the 19th century; we could have had the juice rail (VEPs to Waterloo, anyone?)

Did you know there was a semi-seriously considered GWR plan in the 1930s to install 1.5kv dc wires on some parts of the cornish mainline. Taunton to Penzance i think. If they had done it, they would likely have gone londonwards as well

 

[contrex]

Did you know there was a semi-seriously considered GWR plan in the 1930s to install 1.5kv dc wires on some parts of the cornish mainline. Taunton to Penzance i think. If they had done it, they would likely have gone londonwards as well

I thought they were 3 kV, or '3000 volts' as I still like to say for DC electrifications.

 

[Taunton]

Did you know there was a semi-seriously considered GWR plan in the 1930s to install 1.5kv dc wires on some parts of the cornish mainline. Taunton to Penzance I think. If they had done it, they would likely have gone londonwards as well

More than semi-serious, professional electrical engineering consultancy Merz & McLellan did a big study for the GWR. There was a government scheme to rebate train ticket tax (still existed then) if the proceeds were spent on investment. 3000V DC because that was the highest commercially available, and the technology then needed DC for regeneration up and down the gradients. A principal upside quoted was avoiding the cost of hauling locomotive coal from South Wales.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

There was a first report that said 1.5kv and then the 1930s one said 3kv which I'd forgotten. Mostly the same kind of system either way. There's a well detailed forum post i discovered here: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/175500-proposed-gwr-electrification-in-the-1930s1940s/

 

[jayah]

Jus

Having Bristol Temple Meads electrified allows a range of potential capacity enhancements, even as ad-hoc things for disruption recovery or peak-time relief. A direct benefit would be the Filton Abbey Wood service going to pure EMU, and greater electric use of the IETs already serving Bristol. The Avonmouth line probably needs wires to Weston to make batteries viable from Stapleton Road to Severn Beach.
Equally having both routes to Bristol fully electrified could off a Bristol Parkway to Swindon via Bath service (reverse Temple Meads) that would fulfill a lot of the local cross-bristol demand on a decent length EMU.

Is there a data comparison with LNER to discuss this? (Perhaps in a separate thread).

Just run decent length BiMode unit instead, it would be far cheaper and quicker to do.

They already exist on Greater Anglia, nothing novel required here. EMUs that have stop whenever there is no power or no wires are the antithesis of disruption recovery.

 

[jayah]

Seen in isolation and in the short term that's probably right (other than reducing emissions). However, with the various aspirations for new stations (potentially up to 9 between Cardiff and Swindon via Bath - though the chances of all coming to fruition are probably slim) , the superior acceleration of emus (over the turbos) is probably vital - not to mention that with the two routes into (and including) Temple Meads electrified, it makes short extensions to allow emu running on some other Metro West suburban services (eg Weston-super-Mare) much more viable.

Comparing acceleration with an underpowered 35yr old DMU isn't really an honest comparison, nor is excluding the possibility of BiMode units.

A Class 196 has 50% more powerful engines than a Class 166.

 

[The exile]

Comparing acceleration with an underpowered 35yr old DMU isn't really an honest comparison, nor is excluding the possibility of BiMode units.

A Class 196 has 50% more powerful engines than a Class 166.

Definitely not opposed to bi-mode units - but if diesel only if the diesel element is seen as either:

temporary pending spread of further electrification
to be deployed where gauging / structures etc make conventional electrification near impossible / completely unaffordable (imagine if the Severn Tunnel would have needed to be completely re-bored to take wires)
to allow through running from minor branches where electrification cannot be justified
for emergencies

To use bi-modes as a permanent justification for not electrifying a busy main line with a relatively intensive local service is just not acceptable; to use them as an interim solution connected with a rolling electrification scheme doing the "easy bits" first is fine!

 

[zwk500]

Jus

Just run decent length BiMode unit instead, it would be far cheaper and quicker to do.

They already exist on Greater Anglia, nothing novel required here.

Bi-mode is worth it for something like the Portsmouth-Cardiff or (eventually) Bristol-Gloucester services, but batteries are perfectly good for local sections like the Severn Beach line (especially if the relatively simple extension of OLE from Bristol Parkway/FAW to St Andrews Road/Severn Beach was included for the Henbury Loop.

However in an urban area, noise and air pollution are valid concerns around Bi-Modes, not to mention the need for fuel systems at the depot.

EMUs that have stop whenever there is no power or no wires are the antithesis of disruption recovery.

Which is why I am a very strong proponent of EMUs having a small battery for short isolations or getting into the next platform by default.

 

[Snow1964]

One of the oddities of GWR electrification is when it was stopped, ended up with some of the busier parts not being done, but some of lighter used parts completed. Eg Bathampton-Bristol sees 5 or 6 trains each way per hour, but Swindon-Chippenham only about 2 per hour each way.

Then GWR ended up with wrong mix of trains, and now has bi-modes on fully electrified Paddington-Cardiff services, and trains that can't use electric running as not bi-modes on electrified section.

Yes they have the 387s, but these are pure electric, not BEMUs so can't get to Oxford or Bedwyn etc, so forced to use long distance stock on these shortish services. Meanwhile plenty of 3+ hour services are run with former suburban DMUs

Really need better coordination of electrification extension with sourcing of appropriate rolling stock, and of course an opportunity exists as the DMU fleet will need replacing over next 4-8 years.

Should also be looking at getting electric freight to Mendip stone trains, and the big Gravity battery manufacturing plant (near Bridgewater), as part of sequencing where to extend to.

 

[lachlan]

One of the oddities of GWR electrification is when it was stopped, ended up with some of the busier parts not being done, but some of lighter used parts completed. Eg Bathampton-Bristol sees 5 or 6 trains each way per hour, but Swindon-Chippenham only about 2 per hour each way.

Then GWR ended up with wrong mix of trains, and now has bi-modes on fully electrified Paddington-Cardiff services, and trains that can't use electric running as not bi-modes on electrified section.

Yes they have the 387s, but these are pure electric, not BEMUs so can't get to Oxford or Bedwyn etc, so forced to use long distance stock on these shortish services. Meanwhile plenty of 3+ hour services are run with former suburban DMUs

Really need better coordination of electrification extension with sourcing of appropriate rolling stock, and of course an opportunity exists as the DMU fleet will need replacing over next 4-8 years.

Should also be looking at getting electric freight to Mendip stone trains, and the big Gravity battery manufacturing plant (near Bridgewater), as part of sequencing where to extend to.

Would the GWR bi-modes be able to run to Portsmouth, Weymouth etc? I agree the DMUs are not suitable for these long-distance routes.

I believe the decision was made to stop just before Chippenham because the listed footbridge was going to be costly to raise.

 

[The exile]

I believe the decision was made to stop just before Chippenham because the listed footbridge was going to be costly to raise.

IIRC That was only the reason for stopping short of Chippenham station once the Bath and Bristol section had been “paused” (with a lot of the expensive work already done)

 

[brad465]

Would the GWR bi-modes be able to run to Portsmouth, Weymouth etc? I agree the DMUs are not suitable for these long-distance routes.

I believe the decision was made to stop just before Chippenham because the listed footbridge was going to be costly to raise.

Didn't stop the extensive and no doubt expensive works done from Box tunnel through to Bath inclusive, including trackbed lowering for the tunnel and Sydney Gardens, plus moving the platforms at Bath Spa outwards to enable OHLE installation compatibility. Now that the Bristol area has also been remodelled almost all the "groundwork" prep for electrification is done for this area.

 

[The exile]

Didn't stop the extensive and no doubt expensive works done from Box tunnel through to Bath inclusive, including trackbed lowering for the tunnel and Sydney Gardens, plus moving the platforms at Bath Spa outwards to enable OHLE installation compatibility. Now that the Bristol area has also been remodelled almost all the "groundwork" prep for electrification is done for this area.

Wasn’t the platform work at Bath more to do with flattening out the curve so that the IETs would fit without passengers having to do the long jump to board them?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Should also be looking at getting electric freight to Mendip stone trains, and the big Gravity battery manufacturing plant (near Bridgewater), as part of sequencing where to extend to.

How many freight trains per day is the Gravity battery plant expected to generate? Is their likely destination already wired? (TIA)