Future of Island Line

[Mikey C]

In terms of reusing Tube stock, are the 1973s still the intended stock to reuse? They won't be available until 2025 and 50 years old by then...

 

[Chris125]

Does it need to? Is it ever full?

Yes - quite frequently in summer now they rarely run 4-car sets and when there are events and school kids using them which often need a second guard. If people are to be attracted back to the line reducing the capacity any further would be crazy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes - quite frequently in summer now they rarely run 4-car sets and when there are events and school kids using them which often need a second guard. If people are to be attracted back to the line reducing the capacity any further would be crazy.

Guard? Yes, I know there's a thread for that. But on such a simple self-contained system with a fare structure that basically equates to "do you want a single or a return", TVMs and PFs seem an obvious answer.

 

[A0]

Pfft! No chance would D-stock fit the Ryde tunnels. It'll have escaped your notice that Sub Surface stock is as tall and as wide as Mainline stock (shorter carriages than most mainline stock though).
Exhibit A Exhibit B

To clarify - here's the dimensions of a 503 compared to D78

Length 17.68m (503), 18.37m (D78)
Width 3.02m (503), 2.85m (D78)
Height 3.48m (503), 3.62m (D78)

So not alot in it - the D78 is a couple of feet longer, a bit narrower and a few inches taller than a 503, so may fit.

If they fit, then they could be a good match to the IOW. It could also allow the decommissioning of the third rail equipment, which may not be a bad thing, particularly if it's near life-expiry.

 

[Chester1]

DfT is never going to pay for any of these fantasies. Now if we were still in the EU, you could have convinced Brussels that IoW was a deprived area...

I agree the DfT won't support new rolling stock but it might support conversion to light rail and purchase of second hand trams if the Isle of Wight Council takes over ownership of the line and takes on any subsidies required. The current huge losses would need to be vastly reduced to make this viable. The Isle of Wight is being split into 2 constituencies at the next general election, both seats will be Tory / Lib Dem marginals. The government may decides throwing £10s of millions at conversion is worth it to gain votes and end the subsidy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It needs to be integrated into the bus network. The market simply isn't big enough in the IoW for competing modes.

That, practically, would mean Vectis running it.

 

[Chris125]

If they fit, then they could be a good match to the IOW. It could also allow the decommissioning of the third rail equipment, which may not be a bad thing, particularly if it's near life-expiry.

I think the third rail is here to stay, the extra weight, height and cost of the Vivarail conversions as well as the extra overheads of operating DMUs are all likely to favour it's retention. Any loss of performance could also impact the reliability of the timetable.

 

[BestWestern]

Guard? Yes, I know there's a thread for that. But on such a simple self-contained system with a fare structure that basically equates to "do you want a single or a return", TVMs and PFs seem an obvious answer.

Guards are the sensible answer. There is, what, a maximum of two trains in service? That's two Guards per shift, and the revenue collection is constant. Unless you want one lone RPI and widespread fare evasion, you aren't going to save anything by getting rid of them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I say STOP USING TUBE TRAINS! Yes I know about the Ryde Tunnel but either have the line from St Johns to Shanklin with a normal train and a shuttle to Ryde Pier Head with a tube train, or make a smaller variant of a normal train. The 1939 stock makes the whole line like a heritage railway

 

[Bletchleyite]

Guards are the sensible answer. There is, what, a maximum of two trains in service? That's two Guards per shift, and the revenue collection is constant. Unless you want one lone RPI and widespread fare evasion, you aren't going to save anything by getting rid of them.

Or, as it's part of SWT, you send revenue squads over on the ferry occasionally. I do see your point though.

 

[swt_passenger]

I say STOP USING TUBE TRAINS! Yes I know about the Ryde Tunnel but either have the line from St Johns to Shanklin with a normal train and a shuttle to Ryde Pier Head with a tube train, or make a smaller variant of a normal train. The 1939 stock makes the whole line like a heritage railway

How much are you prepared to pay for this?

 

[HH]

I think the third rail is here to stay, the extra weight, height and cost of the Vivarail conversions as well as the extra overheads of operating DMUs are all likely to favour it's retention. Any loss of performance could also impact the reliability of the timetable.

I agree; I really can't see anyone converting from electric to diesel; apart from anything else what sort of political message would it send?

 

[BestWestern]

Or, as it's part of SWT, you send revenue squads over on the ferry occasionally. I do see your point though.

If you did 'occasional' revenue hits, fare evasion would be close to 100%. You really would save absolutely nothing by losing Guards.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Permanent Rail-Replacement is probably more likely. Vectis have a route which covers afaik all the same places (apart from Smallbrook Junction)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Permanent Rail-Replacement is probably more likely. Vectis have a route which covers afaik all the same places (apart from Smallbrook Junction)

You could close it and most people wouldn't notice. A lightweight electric minibus shuttle could be used on the pier now it's been redone.

 

[A0]

I think the third rail is here to stay, the extra weight, height and cost of the Vivarail conversions as well as the extra overheads of operating DMUs are all likely to favour it's retention. Any loss of performance could also impact the reliability of the timetable.

The weight is a red herring a Class 483 is quoted as 55 tons, a 2 car D78 in LT form was about 56 tons - a transit engine doesn't weigh that much.

A fuel store is not expensive and is fairly straight forward to put in place, so not sure what other infrastructure changes would be needed.

 

[Chris125]

Permanent Rail-Replacement is probably more likely. Vectis have a route which covers afaik all the same places (apart from Smallbrook Junction)

No one is proposing closure, politically and economically that simply isn't an option - buses are more expensive, considerably slower and less reliable especially in summer and can't operate up the pier. The Island's economy is struggling enough as it is without further increasing the already significant cost, time and inconvenience of crossing the Solent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

buses are more expensive

If you took the subsidy from Island Line and put it into the buses they'd be cheaper - for everyone. You could perhaps maintain the Vectis "tourist tax" by funding a "resident's discount buscard" or something.

 

[Chris125]

If you took the subsidy from Island Line and put it into the buses they'd be cheaper - for everyone. You could perhaps maintain the Vectis "tourist tax" by funding a "resident's discount buscard" or something.

Even if the government gave that money to Southern Vectis in perpetuity, and even if that reduced fares to Island Line's - neither of which has been proposed nor seems at all likely - you've still got a significantly slower and less reliable service that can't use the pier, puts more cars on the road and is fundamentally unattractive to a lot of today's users, especially the longer distance commuters.

For people unaware you can get the train and ferry from Shanklin to Portsmouth Harbour in the time that the bus should take just to reach Ryde Esplanade, and all bets are off when there are roadworks or the roads are busy.

 

[MarkyT]

One way of improving bus service on the island and making it more resilient to traffic variability would be to divert some key interurban routes to use parts of the rail routes converted to busways, both those currently active as rail infrastructure and some other former alignments, as well as some newly constructed bus lanes and guideways. Such a network might be served more attractively by smaller minibus sized vehicles on a higher frequency basis perhaps incorporating automation technology. Could even be a 'road going PRT' or a robotaxi-like service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For people unaware you can get the train and ferry from Shanklin to Portsmouth Harbour in the time that the bus should take just to reach Ryde Esplanade, and all bets are off when there are roadworks or the roads are busy.

Yes, but most people don't live in Shanklin. Newport is the island's main town, and it isn't served by rail at all.

 

[Chris125]

Yes, but most people don't live in Shanklin. Newport is the island's main town, and it isn't served by rail at all.

So? Sandown Bay (Shanklin/Lake/Sandown) has a similar year-round population to Newport anyway, and significantly more tourists during the summer of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So?

So it would be fairer to spread the subsidy around the bus service that serves the whole island than to whack it onto one specific town or small set thereof.

 

[fgwrich]

Moving on from the idea of binning the Island Line, a question. When Stagecoach famously purchased the 483s from Eversholt for the grand sum of £1, Who actually purchased them? Was it Stagecoach outright or the SWT Franchise? In which case, will Stagecoach then have to lease them out to First until SWRs newer rolling stock can arrive.

 

[341o2]

No one is proposing closure, politically and economically that simply isn't an option - buses are more expensive, considerably slower and less reliable especially in summer and can't operate up the pier. The Island's economy is struggling enough as it is without further increasing the already significant cost, time and inconvenience of crossing the Solent.

Smallbrook junction only serves as an interchange between the Island line and the steam railway. On a recent visit staff I spoke to were of the opinion that extention of the steam railway was not likely to happen for the foreseeable future. They were concerned with cost and H&S and other issues regarding operating a heritage line under a LRO alongside a line part of the national network without any physical seperation

 

[jayah]

If you took the subsidy from Island Line and put it into the buses they'd be cheaper - for everyone. You could perhaps maintain the Vectis "tourist tax" by funding a "resident's discount buscard" or something.

The bus takes twice as long as the train. People won't use them, they will just drive and just add to the traffic problems. Busways have also been tried and are the wrong way to go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bus takes twice as long as the train. People won't use them, they will just drive and just add to the traffic problems. Busways have also been tried and are the wrong way to go.

People are hardly using the train in droves, though, are they?

 

[Chris125]

So it would be fairer to spread the subsidy around the bus service that serves the whole island than to whack it onto one specific town or small set thereof.

The towns served by the railway make up around a third of the Island's population, hardly one specific town or small set.

Sandown Bay is the only major population centre aside from Newport without it's own ferry link to the mainland.

Unlike Newport, which is the market town and administrative capital, Sandown/Lake/Shanklin are reliant on the tourist trade and therefore access to the mainland for both locals and visitors.

How anyone could think subsidising a bus service which can't even use the pier is either a realistic option or a viable long term solution is beyond me.

 

[Chris125]

Smallbrook junction only serves as an interchange between the Island line and the steam railway. On a recent visit staff I spoke to were of the opinion that extention of the steam railway was not likely to happen for the foreseeable future. They were concerned with cost and H&S and other issues regarding operating a heritage line under a LRO alongside a line part of the national network without any physical seperation

There would be issues to overcome but the Spa Valley already operate alongside the national network into Eridge, Peak Rail at Matlock, the Barry Tourist Railway in South Wales and the Welsh Highland Railway cross it on the level.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If it's not going to close, it's going to need many millions invested in it. When i was on holiday over there a few years ago, you could feel how bumpy the ride was. Virtually all the track must be due for renewal