Future of Island Line

[Bletchleyite]

2-car Class 707? They'd go like stink!

But in all seriousness PEP EMUs are much smaller than Mk3-based EMUs (you can see that by looking at a 455 with a 508 coach in it) - perhaps the tunnel floor wouldn't need dropping much to allow ex-Merseyrail 507s to be used, say?

Ally bodies too, so they shouldn't rot.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Best bet would be a 3S aerial tramway going direct to Portsmouth Harbour from Ryde Harbour station.
Vehicle every 30 seconds and it removes the need for a non-vehicle ferry, with a much shorter effective journey time.

I'm pretty sure that if that was what was being promised in the new franchise, it would have featured more prominently in the DfT announcement

 

[61653 HTAFC]

2-car Class 707? They'd go like stink!

But in all seriousness PEP EMUs are much smaller than Mk3-based EMUs (you can see that by looking at a 455 with a 508 coach in it) - perhaps the tunnel floor wouldn't need dropping much to allow ex-Merseyrail 507s to be used, say?

Ally bodies too, so they shouldn't rot.

PEPs aren't that much smaller than other stock, certainly far too big for the Ryde tunnel. Lowering the track further would increase flooding issues. Additionally height isn't the only problem with the tunnel- AIUI vehicle length is restricted due to curvature, so 20m coaches might not be suitable even if that was the only problem, which of course it isn't.

 

[WatcherZero]

Follow on order for the new Glasgow subway stock.


#Evil

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Best bet would be a 3S aerial tramway going direct to Portsmouth Harbour from Ryde Harbour station.
Vehicle every 30 seconds and it removes the need for a non-vehicle ferry, with a much shorter effective journey time.

How much would that cost compared with using a TBM to dig new tunnels over from Portsmouth, a underground station at Ryde Esplanade (general area of the bus station) with the tunnels emerging somewhere around the Ryde St Johns area?

 

[MarkyT]

Follow on order for the new Glasgow subway stock.

Interesting. Probably not in ATO mode though! Improved performance could lengthen the layover time of the newly proposed 30 minute interval service, particularly at Ryde Pier Head, improving reliability.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Follow on order for the new Glasgow subway stock.


#Evil

An overnight gauge-change like on the GWR of old?

 

[FS-2-11]

The follow-on-order suggestion might not be so outlandish as it first appears; as has been pointed out elsewhere, Stadler are very good at designing modular trains to work the various gauges in their native Switzerland. I'm amused by the mental image of a Glasgow Subway body on standard-gauge running gear, akin to NIR's BR-Sprinter-derived stock on 1600mm. Looks odd, but works somehow.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, not too hard to scale up a bodyshell and maximise available space and Stadler are kings of low production runs of a dozen or less customised trains.

I said it in jest but I was half serious, a customised sister of the SPT is probably most likely platform for a new order to begin with.

 

[scotraildriver]

Old Glasgow subway stock? It's not THAT old and can be driven manually

 

[Chester1]

How much would that cost compared with using a TBM to dig new tunnels over from Portsmouth, a underground station at Ryde Esplanade (general area of the bus station) with the tunnels emerging somewhere around the Ryde St Johns area?

A rule of thumb - tunnelled road and railways cost roughly £300m per mile. MoD opposition means that any tunnel would have to be at a very deep level requiring a very steep gradient and therefore making trams (or tram trains) the only option. Any tram to Portsmouth would have to go via Gosport to add more revanue and gain enough political support. At a minimium of £2bn it would be simply too expensive for the government to fund from scratch. The way forward for a tram system is to convert the Island Line, single the line from Smallbrook Junction to allow steam services into St Johns and build a on street section from St Johns to the Esplanade to allow the tunnel to be closed. If there was a functioning tram system on the Isle of Wight then a tram tunnel would be more realistic. I suspect a compatible Portsmouth - Gosport system would be the next realistic step but again that would be also be tough to obtain funding for. I think only then would a tunnel from Ryde be a vauge possibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, not too hard to scale up a bodyshell and maximise available space and Stadler are kings of low production runs of a dozen or less customised trains.

In such a context would it make sense to lower the platforms and go low floor to give a larger usable body?

Yes, I'm sure it's something Stadler could and would do.

 

[jopsuk]

But in all seriousness PEP EMUs are much smaller than Mk3-based EMUs (you can see that by looking at a 455 with a 508 coach in it) -

They're not much lower in the centre, and they have "shoulders" that protrude a little- can be seen pretty clearly here

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A rule of thumb - tunnelled road and railways cost roughly £300m per mile. MoD opposition means that any tunnel would have to be at a very deep level requiring a very steep gradient and therefore making trams (or tram trains) the only option. Any tram to Portsmouth would have to go via Gosport to add more revanue and gain enough political support. At a minimium of £2bn it would be simply too expensive for the government to fund from scratch. The way forward for a tram system is to convert the Island Line, single the line from Smallbrook Junction to allow steam services into St Johns and build a on street section from St Johns to the Esplanade to allow the tunnel to be closed. If there was a functioning tram system on the Isle of Wight then a tram tunnel would be more realistic. I suspect a compatible Portsmouth - Gosport system would be the next realistic step but again that would be also be tough to obtain funding for. I think only then would a tunnel from Ryde be a vauge possibility.

If they do convert to tram operation eventually, they could do with a route going from Ryde to Yarmouth, possibly going via both Cowes and Newport

 

[HLE]

Ah so that's who placed the order with Vivarail....

I'll get me coat.

 

[jopsuk]

Ah so that's who placed the order with Vivarail....

I'll get me coat.

Pfft! No chance would D-stock fit the Ryde tunnels. It'll have escaped your notice that Sub Surface stock is as tall and as wide as Mainline stock (shorter carriages than most mainline stock though).
Exhibit A Exhibit B

 

[HSTEd]

How much would that cost compared with using a TBM to dig new tunnels over from Portsmouth, a underground station at Ryde Esplanade (general area of the bus station) with the tunnels emerging somewhere around the Ryde St Johns area?

The tunnel option would likely cost an order of magnitude more.
I doubt you would get much change from a billion pounds for that lot.

 

[jopsuk]

If they do convert to tram operation eventually, they could do with a route going from Ryde to Yarmouth, possibly going via both Cowes and Newport

Geography is a problem. Going from Ryde to Newport via (east) Cowes is not exactly direct. Crossing the Medina anywhere north of Medina Way in Newport requires a very high bridge or an opening bridge of some sort- in Cowes of course they have a chain ferry. Likewise at Yarmouth if continuing west to Freshwater and the Needles either the existing swing bridge would have to be adapted or a new one built.

A lot of the island's economy involves yachts, the north side of the island has lots of rivers they can currently go up.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Geography is a problem. Going from Ryde to Newport via (east) Cowes is not exactly direct. Crossing the Medina anywhere north of Medina Way in Newport requires a very high bridge or an opening bridge of some sort- in Cowes of course they have a chain ferry. Likewise at Yarmouth if continuing west to Freshwater and the Needles either the existing swing bridge would have to be adapted or a new one built.

A lot of the island's economy involves yachts, the north side of the island has lots of rivers they can currently go up.

Even if it was just via Newport only it would probably be a big improvement. I was on holiday on the IoW a few years ago, the bus got stuck in a really long queue of traffic going into Newport

 

[zuriblue]

Indeed, not too hard to scale up a bodyshell and maximise available space and Stadler are kings of low production runs of a dozen or less customised trains.

I said it in jest but I was half serious, a customised sister of the SPT is probably most likely platform for a new order to begin with.

Or they could do something on their Tango LRV platform, similar to the Berlin Kleinprofil IK class.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...bahn-unveils-pre-series-stadler-trainset.html

(Image of Stadler Berlin IK set from Railway Gazette)

GERMANY: Berlin city transport operator BVG officially unveiled the first pre-series Type IK U-Bahn trainset built by Stadler Pankow on February 3. The contract awarded in July 2012 is Stadler’s first to provide metro trainsets, and the design has been derived from its Tango family of light rail vehicles.

The Type IK is intended to replace the A3L71 fleet on U-Bahn lines U1 to U4. The narrow profile of these lines has traditionally restricted train widths to 2 300 mm, rather than the 2 650 mm on the larger-profile lines U5 to U9. To make the best use of the available space, the Type IK has sides which bulge outwards, providing a maximum width of 2 400 mm and thus providing an extra 100 mm of space inside.

 

[HH]

DfT is never going to pay for any of these fantasies. Now if we were still in the EU, you could have convinced Brussels that IoW was a deprived area...

 

[Bletchleyite]

DfT is never going to pay for any of these fantasies. Now if we were still in the EU, you could have convinced Brussels that IoW was a deprived area...

It needs, what, 3 sets? What'll that be, 6 million or so? Small change as far as the railway goes.

Go DMU and they could save on keeping the creaking electrification running, too.

 

[HH]

It needs, what, 3 sets? What'll that be, 6 million or so? Small change as far as the railway goes.

Go DMU and they could save on keeping the creaking electrification running, too.

Just under £2m a vehicle. Less if it was light rail, but more for Diesel, due to the new regulations. Diesel might be a real problem on IoW with those due to the extra space required for the eco-kit.

I'm not an expert, but I've spoken to a few and it never seems to be that easy to get any RS to fit the infrastructure. There would undoubtedly have to be changes to accommodate new units. It all adds up and the railway runs at a loss already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just under £2m a vehicle. Less if it was light rail, but more for Diesel, due to the new regulations. Diesel might be a real problem on IoW with those due to the extra space required for the eco-kit.

Train lengths aren't an issue, so the "mini loco" approach typified by Stadler would work fine. Indeed, a narrow-gauge GTW derivative would be perfect. These can be made quite small, and are right at the cheap end of DMUs - sort of a modern day Pacer in some ways.

Lop the top off one of these, say.

 

[Chris125]

Pfft! No chance would D-stock fit the Ryde tunnels. It'll have escaped your notice that Sub Surface stock is as tall and as wide as Mainline stock

I wouldn't rule them out that categorically - IIRC they combine a relatively low roofline with a 17-18m body unlike most conventional mainline stock, so while very unlikely it's theoretically possible that the alterations required might be economic.

After all the Merseyrail 503s were seriously considered back in the 80s as replacements for the Standard Stock.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wouldn't rule them out that categorically - IIRC they combine a relatively low roofline with a 17-18m body unlike most conventional mainline stock, so while very unlikely it's theoretically possible that the alterations required might be economic.

After all the Merseyrail 503s were seriously considered back in the 80s as replacements for the Standard Stock.

Hasn't the track been raised since then though? Anti-flooding measure IIRC.

 

[Chris125]

Hasn't the track been raised since then though? Anti-flooding measure IIRC.

It was raised back when the line was electrified but I'm not aware of any significant change since (it's probably better described as anti-high tide, flooding generally occurs when the water flows along the railway from the St Johns end).

As the diagram on page 28 of local rail historian/former Island Line employee Mark Brinton's Island Line report shows, the arched portals of the tunnel have generous clearance in comparison to some of the overbridges - for example the first, unmodified, 03 shunter was initially marooned at Sandown thanks to the bridge carrying Smallbrook Lane.


Class 483 at Ryde by leylandbus, on Flickr

 

[HH]

Train lengths aren't an issue, so the "mini loco" approach typified by Stadler would work fine. Indeed, a narrow-gauge GTW derivative would be perfect. These can be made quite small, and are right at the cheap end of DMUs - sort of a modern day Pacer in some ways.

Lop the top off one of these, say.

How much extra cost for custom top-lopping? Does the gauge fit? Would it carry at least as many passengers as today? What about the platform heights? What about re-fuelling? How heavy are they compared to current stock? What about the driver - can he see all the signals?

I'm sure there are plenty more hurdles to get over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much extra cost for custom top-lopping?

Not necessarily significant if any. Stadler's entire business model is about small-run custom jobs - they have built themselves up supplying stock for the various Swiss narrow-gauge lines in orders of 3s and 4s and the likes.

Does the gauge fit?

Spec it so it does.

Would it carry at least as many passengers as today?

Does it need to? Is it ever full?

What about the platform heights?

Spec it to the correct platform height. As noted the design is totally flexible - it's Stadler's USP!

What about re-fuelling?

A van? We're talking 3 units here.

How heavy are they compared to current stock?

I'd expect pretty light.

What about the driver - can he see all the signals?

Spec it so he can.

I'm sure there are plenty more hurdles to get over.

I'd imagine a few but not insurmountable. The biggest one is whose wallet is going to open - but if it does, these should be good for the next 30-40 years.

 

[swt_passenger]

So have there been any new fantasy rolling stock ideas since the similar discussion earlier in this thread?

Has anything about the problem actually changed since then? :roll: