• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Future of Island Line

Status
Not open for further replies.

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,598
Location
Torbay
The renewals of electrical equipment for the Island line are unlikely to be very expensive.

Ah but my proposed de-electrification would avoid even that expenditure, only requiring the labour and logistics to recover and dispose of the existing equipment, and the scrap rail, transformers and cables would probably have a value.

Aluminium conductor rail would probably allow the entire thing to be supported by a single substation.

A large amount of new conductor rail!

How many trains are in motion at once?

With a new Brading passing loop and single track all the way to both termini I think that would be 2 trains (today four cars max) plus perhaps one shunting.

That demonstrates just how simple the electrical system is.

Simples, agreed, but still dangerous with a ground level unshrouded power rail which all the operations and engineering staff on the island have to be trained on, which limits the kinds of minor maintenance work that can be accomplished easily whilst live, and which is just waiting to bite some trespasser, wandering lost child or confused senior one day.

BTW - have there ever been any electric shock injuries to staff, passengere or public on the IOW?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,743
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Simples, agreed, but still dangerous with a ground level unshrouded power rail which all the operations and engineering staff on the island have to be trained on, which limits the kinds of minor maintenance work that can be accomplished easily whilst live, and which is just waiting to bite some trespasser, wandering lost child or confused senior one day.

That argument applies to all third rail, not just Island Line.
 

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,272
Location
Isle of Wight
I see no reason whatsoever why this principle should not be applied to the Island Line. It is a self-contained mode of land-based transport and as I said before, why did the other railway companies on the Isle of Wight go to the wall.

Why should Island Line be treated differently to any other part of the railway network whose operating costs exceed farebox revenue? Direct or indirect government support is a fact of life for much of the public transport available outside major conurbations, justified by the wider benefits to the local economy and the impact closure would have - that was a major reason for retention of this and many other lines in the 60s and I see no appetite for closing them.

How much would it cost to convert the entire line into a tram route? Somewhere in the 100s millions range or in the 10s millions range?

While tube stock remains a viable option it's hard to see what benefits trams would bring that would justify the extra costs.
 
Last edited:

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,361
Ah but my proposed de-electrification would avoid even that expenditure, only requiring the labour and logistics to recover and dispose of the existing equipment, and the scrap rail, transformers and cables would probably have a value.
How about the labour and logistics associated with these new diesel engines. Assuming you can even fit them into the tube stock used now.
Otherwise you will need new stock which will cost far more.
You are looking about £1-2m for a new rectifier station capable of supporting the entire line.
This will allow for electric traction to continue as the cost of the conductor rails and such are minimal in this case as all the equipment is already in place.

Good luck getting your bespoke diesel gear for less than that.
Alongside all the expanded fueling facilities and maintenance support facilities to support diesel operation.

A large amount of new conductor rail!
Not particularly large - there is only about 14km of track on the entire route. And points at the extremities would not require new conductor rail as the current flows through them will be limited to only a single set for relatively brief amounts of time.
The value of aluminium is higher than steel but still so low [something like £1000/t] that £100k would easily cover it. Especially as it can use scrap conductor rail with the stainless steel almost worn through.

The use is so light that rail that would last months more on the main line would last years if not longer.
And if 25kV conversion of main line routes ever happen then this would produce huge quantities of scrap value rail with large quantities of remaining life that could be installed in the case of normal renewals.
We still have years before the electrification gear needs replacing to get it all in place after all.
With a dedicated track gang the replacements can fit in any empty slots in their jobs list.


A single centrally placed substation would have a maximum loop resistance to the end of line of only 180 milli-ohms (7km distant) using.
A feeder busbar running alongside the track in parallel with the running rails would cut this further but I won't include that - although it would cost very little and cut resistance to something approaching 100 milli-ohms.

The maximum length of train on the route is 6-cars. Which will have a formation peak power requirement of 1100kW.
At minimum permitted rail voltage of 450V that would mean a peak current of 2440A.
2440A across a 180 milli ohm circuit is a voltage drop of 440V.
Which sounds like an awful lot but 890V at substation is actually still inside the normal 3rd spec.

If we have that busbar in parallel with the running rails (you can make it out of scrap aluminium conductor rails if you want which as I said are available in significant quantities) then the voltage drop drops to about 220V, putting the substation voltage at 670V.
If you set substation voltage to 750V nominal then you end up with a train voltage of 550V, a current of 2000A and a far more reasonable loss profile.

Either way - a single substation solution is easily achievable for something £3m including scrap-value conductor rails, a new rectifier station and some improvements to the SCADA fit.

Its peanuts really.
And whilst the tube exists there will always be scrap value rolling stock available for when the line eventually needs it.

With a new Brading passing loop and single track all the way to both termini I think that would be 2 trains (today four cars max) plus perhaps one shunting.
Indeed, but I just modelled that based on the 6-car platform length.
4-car drops the requirement for new conductor rails in the single-substation solution.

Simples, agreed, but still dangerous with a ground level unshrouded power rail which all the operations and engineering staff on the island have to be trained on, which limits the kinds of minor maintenance work that can be accomplished easily whilst live, and which is just waiting to bite some trespasser, wandering lost child or confused senior one day.
De-electrification will make the line more expensive to operate otherwise and would likely render it even less attractive to the public.
People like to hate on 3rd rail electrification - but for electrifying lightly used branch lines for almost nothing there is nothing better.

EDIT:

And this is before you embrace truly esoteric solutions like a ~£300k 'substation' that contains no actual rectifiers, merely a single contactor and DC circuit breaker used to isolate a bank of supercapacitors that are connected directly across the conductor rail to add stiffness to a supply.

No power electronics or anything and it would easily soak those full power transients.
You might even be able to use a LV substation to support the system in that case because load would never climb above 300-500kW.
 
Last edited:

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
7,682
Location
Solihull
Interesting talking after the safety of third rail, i was reading in Trains magazine earlier of the Dubai metro which has an "intelligent" third rail system which only turns the "juice" on when the train is over it. Not very relevant for the IoW maybe but interesting none the less. I wonder how bulletproof it is.

I think de-electrifying a rail route in this day and age would be a very backwards and strange step.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,941
Location
UK
Having battery powered trains, charged inductively, doing away with third rail or overhead wires would likely be the future, no?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,471
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
That could be said of any line, not just Island Line. Outside London commuterland, it would be viable (though not desirable) to replace more or less any regional line with buses if not profitable.

My posting made reference to the Island Line being a self-contained land-based project on an island of small dimensions. Even Anglesey has a bridge connection with a railway linkage.

Again I state that the Island Line is not comparable in that respect to any mainland-based heavy-rail project whatsoever.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,361
Having battery powered trains, charged inductively, doing away with third rail or overhead wires would likely be the future, no?

Requires expensive heavyweight batteries whose performance is limited by physics.
Also imposes giant peak loads on the grid as power can only be passed to the train in brief windows rather than continuously.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,471
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Why should Island Line be treated differently to any other part of the railway network whose operating costs exceed farebox revenue? Direct or indirect government support is a fact of life for much of the public transport available outside major conurbations, justified by the wider benefits to the local economy and the impact closure would have - that was a major reason for retention of this and many other lines in the 60s and I see no appetite for closing them.

I thought that my original posting which stated that the Island Line was just a self-contained land-based mode of transport on a small island that was now adequately served by Southern Vectis in terms of public transport could not have been worded any clearer.

What "wider benefits to the local economy" are delivered by the Island Line in 2015.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,361
I very much doubt the marginal cost of running the Island line is greater than the cost of an equivalent bus service.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,413
Location
Yorks
I thought that my original posting which stated that the Island Line was just a self-contained land-based mode of transport on a small island that was now adequately served by Southern Vectis in terms of public transport could not have been worded any clearer.

What "wider benefits to the local economy" are delivered by the Island Line in 2015.

Not having to get on a crummy bus (or road based Pacer if you would prefer) would be a key one.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,941
Location
UK
Requires expensive heavyweight batteries whose performance is limited by physics.
Also imposes giant peak loads on the grid as power can only be passed to the train in brief windows rather than continuously.

I thought Bombardier's recent testing had gone quite well, and battery charging technology is improving all the time. I can see myself owning an electric car ten years from now, and being able to enjoy a very decent range and extend this further without having to wait hours.

On the Island Line you could just have a bit more stock so that you can keep one train 'on charge' for a bit longer than the usual turnaround, or charge at each station. And depending on the battery tech in the future, how much range would you have in the first place? It may only require a long, deep charge, once per day and small top ups in between.

I very much doubt the marginal cost of running the Island line is greater than the cost of an equivalent bus service.

The problem is that it's cheap because very little is being upgraded. It's all adding up to one huge bill when everything comes at once.

Meanwhile, the buses will just carry on as normal. The only real cost being upgrading the buses, and perhaps newer buses (including hybrids) will further reduce running costs.

One thing I noticed on the buses was that they really go for it on the country roads, so it was surprisingly quick to get about. And with some of them having Wi-Fi, I found bus travel on the island very pleasant.
 
Last edited:

Drsatan

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
1,887
Location
Land of the Sprinters
One thing I noticed on the buses was that they really go for it on the country roads, so it was surprisingly quick to get about. And with some of them having Wi-Fi, I found bus travel on the island very pleasant.

The traffic heading into and out of Ryde can be pretty horrendous. Replacing the Island Line with bus services would only put passengers off using them as journey times would be extended.

Not to mention passengers arriving off the catamaran would need to travel down to the Esplanade. When train services are withdrawn, having a minibus shuttle up and down would be practical off-peak but impractical during the summer months.

Good luck if you believe that when the 1938 stock trains are withdrawn without replacement, buses will pick up the slack


Interesting talking after the safety of third rail, i was reading in Trains magazine earlier of the Dubai metro which has an "intelligent" third rail system which only turns the "juice" on when the train is over it. Not very relevant for the IoW maybe but interesting none the less. I wonder how bulletproof it is.

The ground-level power supply system is used in Bordeaux where I understand there have been issues with reliability, plus installing the system has proven to be more expensive than installing OHL. I would also imagine there would be safety issues whenever it rains - not a problem that would apply to Dubai.
 
Joined
14 Aug 2012
Messages
1,070
Location
Stratford
No theres not the 03 goes by lowloader to Sandown when its hired by the mainline.

Would have thought there would have been link will save the hassle, mind you not surprised in todays red tape society
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I very much doubt the marginal cost of running the Island line is greater than the cost of an equivalent bus service.

Cost of running the service is one thing, main issue is the income, if the bus is getting more income than the railway it goes a long way,
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,361
I thought Bombardier's recent testing had gone quite well, and battery charging technology is improving all the time. I can see myself owning an electric car ten years from now, and being able to enjoy a very decent range and extend this further without having to wait hours.
The batteries themselves are not improving much though.
And faster charging just makes the power spiking issues even worse.
On the Island Line you could just have a bit more stock so that you can keep one train 'on charge' for a bit longer than the usual turnaround, or charge at each station. And depending on the battery tech in the future, how much range would you have in the first place? It may only require a long, deep charge, once per day and small top ups in between.
Unless you want a train made entirely of batteries all-day performance is very unlikely.
Additionally all this is going to require brand new stock as you won't fit battery banks in tube stock - and that is going to be expensive.
Total renewal of the electrical system is only going to cut £2-3m.

Replacement scrap-value tube stock will be available at intervals from various tube lines.
The problem is that it's cheap because very little is being upgraded. It's all adding up to one huge bill when everything comes at once.

Not huge by railway standards.
The cost of a total renewal would be almost nothing.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,941
Location
UK
Good luck if you believe that when the 1938 stock trains are withdrawn without replacement, buses will pick up the slack

I don't want trains to end, but just suggested that battery powered trains (which could still be charged via OHLE in specific locations) but just pointed out that buses work fairly well and are clearly going to remain cheap to run compared to the inevitably huge bill that's coming one day for the railway line. I think they'll be a usable technology in the next 10-20 years.

I am all for keeping the line. Indeed, I'd like to see it improved with a faster service and perhaps even extended. But who is going to pay?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,361
I don't want trains to end, but just suggested that battery powered trains (which could still be charged via OHLE in specific locations)
How will this OHLE be supplied, how will it be cheaper than current arrangements?
The Island line is a case study in Southern Region's make-do-and-mend mentality, which has survived the explosion of largesse in the rest of the railway.

The line can be kept going almost indefinitely for very little money. A Penryn esque loop would be the only real improvement necessary to secure it's future. If the IoW eventually manages to get reregulated transport it would help but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,471
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
Not having to get on a crummy bus (or road based Pacer if you would prefer) would be a key one.

Of the bus services on the Isle of Wight run by Southern Vectis, where have you experienced such a poor quality bus to which you refer to above. and on which route?

Settlements such as Newport, Bembridge, East Cowes, West Cowes, Yarmouth and Ventnor (to name but six on the island) have no railway linkage these days.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,941
Location
UK
How will this OHLE be supplied, how will it be cheaper than current arrangements?
The Island line is a case study in Southern Region's make-do-and-mend mentality, which has survived the explosion of largesse in the rest of the railway.

The line can be kept going almost indefinitely for very little money. A Penryn esque loop would be the only real improvement necessary to secure it's future. If the IoW eventually manages to get reregulated transport it would help but I wouldn't hold my breath.

If it can be run as is for many more years, that's exactly what will happen.

And even if the Island Line isn't where we might one day see battery trains put into use (I never said it would, it was just an idea), it surely isn't that expensive to install overhead wires at a few fixed locations to charge - if not using ground based charging.

It's going to happen somewhere, I have no doubt. And trains may well use OHLE for most of the time, switching to battery power when venturing away from the wires for short distances - increasing travel options.

Who knows, maybe all those fuel tanks on the IEPs will be replaced with batteries one day when we finally get rid of diesel?!
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,471
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
I very much doubt the marginal cost of running the Island line is greater than the cost of an equivalent bus service.

Look at the total number of settlements on the Isle of Wight that are still served by bus these days, then look at the actual number of settlements that are now served by the Island Line, then you will find that Southern Vectis provide a far more comprehensive public transport to the island community and to holidaymakers.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,941
Location
UK
Buses have suffered lots of cuts this year, but the flexibility (in theory) that enables a new bus route to be created and put into service with just 56 days notice is always going to be hard for the railway to beat.

Of course, the railways never normally has to worry about that as it offers a far faster and efficient means to transport people. Problem is, the Island Line can't actually move that many people and also not very often.

It's swings and roundabouts. You could potentially get rid of the railway line to the pier, rebuild it as a road and then run buses up and down, separate to the existing road/walkway, instead of making people walk the pier if they don't fancy taking the train.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,361
And even if the Island Line isn't where we might one day see battery trains put into use (I never said it would, it was just an idea), it surely isn't that expensive to install overhead wires at a few fixed locations to charge - if not using ground based charging.
The problem is that fixed location charging must deliver the same amount of power to a train as a fixed electrification system, but do so over a small fraction of the amount of time.
(All the energy for the round trip must be supplied at the start or whatever).

This means the supplies tend to have enormous peak loads but low capacity factors. The former causes problems because it means you have to go to higher and higher voltage and more and more expensive substations to supply them.
If the charging rail is supplied with 750Vdc then any chance of a simple tram derived substation goes out of the window and you are looking at a several million pound high power 11kV or even 33kV substation for each charging location.
With continuous electrification you might need one ~1-2MW 11kV fed substation or you could potentially get away with a 300-500kW 400V substation or two combined with a rail coupled supercap bank or two.

The cost of the conductor rail connecting your chargers is relatively small, even if you need feeder cables. Modern controlled rectifiers can also limit output current and allow the rail-side voltage to sag without causing overloads.
That means multiple small-cheap substations can supply a train, rather than two larger ones.

For example, if you wanted a sleepy branch line somewhere that had a Cl456 pottering about on it - it could be supported by a 500kVA 400V supplied substation that would be only a total of ~35 square metres of land take and a cost of something around £400k. No high voltage switchgear, no expensive SCADA fit and no huge circuit breakers.
With a single train operation (Looe branch) you could get away with a single circuit breaker and area isolation with make-only contactors.

Look at the total number of settlements on the Isle of Wight that are still served by bus these days, then look at the actual number of settlements that are now served by the Island Line, then you will find that Southern Vectis provide a far more comprehensive public transport to the island community and to holidaymakers.

What Southern Vectis does elsewhere is completely irrelevant.
The question is whether the Island line is cheaper to operate than an equivalent replacement bus would be on this route.

The answer is almost certainly yes.
 
Last edited:

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,471
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
What Southern Vectis does elsewhere is completely irrelevant.
The question is whether the Island line is cheaper to operate than an equivalent replacement bus would be on this route.

The answer is almost certainly yes.

Shall we then introduce a scenario of a island-based resident or a holidaymaker wish to avail themselves of Red Funnel ferry travel from the mainland to and from the northern ports of Cowes and East Cowes. Therefore in response to your statement above, I ask the question "Where is the onward train service from either of these two settlements that ferry passengers can take advantage of".

I assure you that Ryde does not hold a monopoly of ferry service passengers these days and for onward passengers arriving at Ryde, only a few settlements on the east side of the island are served by the Island Line. Newport is the administrative hub of the island, but with no rail services, yet its bus station offers bus services to all parts of the island, not just to a few eastern parts that the Island Line serves. The location of the Island Line station at Sandown is not very well situated for serving the town centre or the coastal environs where many large hotels are situated.
 

Argosy

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
193
There is a class 03 at the IoW steam railway, but it's 03059. The IoW loco was 03179 which was later moved to Hornsey depot and received WAGN colours. I believe this one is now preserved in FCC livery.

The IoW steam railway also has 05001, which was the resident diesel loco before 03179 went to the island.

Ah 05001. affectionately known as Nuclear Fred in the early 1970's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I very much doubt the marginal cost of running the Island line is greater than the cost of an equivalent bus service.

I think you are definitely incorrect there. To SVOC it is just extra buses. They already have the overheads and maintenace facilities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Buses have suffered lots of cuts this year, but the flexibility (in theory) that enables a new bus route to be created and put into service with just 56 days notice is always going to be hard for the railway to beat.

Of course, the railways never normally has to worry about that as it offers a far faster and efficient means to transport people. Problem is, the Island Line can't actually move that many people and also not very often.

It's swings and roundabouts. You could potentially get rid of the railway line to the pier, rebuild it as a road and then run buses up and down, separate to the existing road/walkway, instead of making people walk the pier if they don't fancy taking the train.

The other issue is 'permanency'. You quite rightly highlight the 56 day notice period. And that is it. A bus service can come off at 56 days notice. A rail service can't. Making rail a tad more secure.

As for the road up the pier. Well there is one. A Transit minibus used to go up and down it for SVOC a number 91?? possibly. The big issue is limited parking up the top, the cost and er maintenance of the pier, which might be Wightlink's liability? Having the wooden pier worn out by motorists might not be what Wightlink had in mind.

Oh back to the days of walking (done that), cycling (nope), driving (yes), the tram (yes) and the train (yes). The nostalgia of it all and the MV Brading at the Pier Head.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,491
If the track through the tunnel were to be singled, taking whatever the optimum line is through the tunnel would that have any affect on the number of trains per hour?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,413
Location
Yorks
Look at the total number of settlements on the Isle of Wight that are still served by bus these days, then look at the actual number of settlements that are now served by the Island Line, then you will find that Southern Vectis provide a far more comprehensive public transport to the island community and to holidaymakers.

I've yet to discover any bus service, anywhere in this country worth ditching a train service for, and whilst I haven't visited the IoW in a fair few years, I sincerely doubt that Isle of Wight exceptionalism is strong enough to alter the generally inferior nature of bus transportation.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,743
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Look at the total number of settlements on the Isle of Wight that are still served by bus these days, then look at the actual number of settlements that are now served by the Island Line, then you will find that Southern Vectis provide a far more comprehensive public transport to the island community and to holidaymakers.

A typically British view.

The view should be that the Island Line and the buses together provide a comprehensive public transport network to the Island community and holidaymakers. With one ticketing system and one coordinated set of timetables.

But this is the UK, and so the nonsense of the two competing, wasting subsidy, continues.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Who knows, maybe all those fuel tanks on the IEPs will be replaced with batteries one day when we finally get rid of diesel?!

If things like IEP and for that matter D78s can be built with modular engine rafts, the idea of chucking in something that isn't a diesel engine but has the same interface to the outside world seems viable. Such a use case would work here I guess.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
13,195
If the track through the tunnel were to be singled, taking whatever the optimum line is through the tunnel would that have any affect on the number of trains per hour?

There isn't an 'optimum line', Ryde Tunnel consists of two single bores:

4125576418_6a7a762322.jpg


And they're each prone to flooding:

640px-Ryde_Esplanade_railway_line_and_tunnel_flooding.JPG
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,743
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There looks to be *loads* of clearance there - does it reduce further down?

Going back to the tram/LRV idea, wasn't one principle behind that that Ryde Tunnel could be abandoned in favour of a street running section?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top