Future of Class 707

[Nymanic]

While I don't expect shortening of the sets to be feasible, perhaps lengthening would be an option? Upping them to 7-car would make them near-identical in length to a pair of 323s. They could be employed on the Cross City Line...

 

[phoenixcronin]

Idle speculation- 707s to GTR, replacing 387s on Great Northern for fleet commonality and capacity enhancement (some 365s staying for 12 car diagrams) 387s to c2c (or are they commited to "brand new" trains?)

I believe the 6 c2c 387s are temporary anyway, until they get more new trains in ~ 2019.

 

[phoenixcronin]

Since there are 30 707s in total, and GN has 29 387s in total, would it be possible to remove one car from each 707 to make 29 4-car sets and then replace all the 387s? It would give GTR a more uniform fleet (700, 707, 717)

 

[Astradyne]

I don't see how they don't meet 0.25 sqm rule ... either passenger stand in that amount of space or they don't. Surely this is not dependant on floor layout, type of floor installed. Can some one please expand on this requirement and how it is not meet.

The photos I have seen of the inside of a Class 707 show 1+2 seating with wide isles for seating ... so really only suited for high density metro work.

 

[AM9]

Since there are 30 707s in total, and GN has 29 387s in total, would it be possible to remove one car from each 707 to make 29 4-car sets and then replace all the 387s? It would give GTR a more uniform fleet (700, 707, 717)

I can already hear the howls of those GN passengers who think that the 387s are 'theirs' and don't want anything that doesn't have wide +2 seats with armrests, table and power outlets.

 

[D365]

Why would you spend money on adding toilets, removing carriages, yadda yadda...

Maybe for once just wait and see what kind of fleet the new franchise will be bringing in?!

 

[TheDavibob]

While I don't expect shortening of the sets to be feasible, perhaps lengthening would be an option? Upping them to 7-car would make them near-identical in length to a pair of 323s. They could be employed on the Cross City Line...

Yeah, the Cross City would be the ideal line, but only if they had the capacity of a pair of 323s. To be fair though, 323s (3+2 and stock shortage aside) are still a very good fit for Cross City and it seems a bit sad to replace them just for somewhere to put some new stock.

---

Edit: and regards the GN 387s, I've seen a lot of loathing of them around here (and I'll admit they weren't amazing in my only trip on them), so I doubt there's any inherent attachment to them yet (though admittedly due to the popularity of the 365s). Sockets are presumably a must though in this day and age.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I can't believe were discussing the future of a unit that hasn't even been delivered yet.

I didn't think that the lunacy that is happening with Greater Anglia with a crazy amount of trains being delivered to replace stock that doesn't even need replacing in some cases could be topped but now we are talking about replacing trains that haven't even been delivered yet, let alone entered into service.

It's clear the UK needs more rolling stock, but we've gone from a situation where nobody was ordering anything to the point where we are seeing crazy amounts of rolling stock being ordered every franchise and the users is going to end up having to pay for it.

 

[Fuzzytop]

The 365s and 387s are swapping each other very soon though. I hope you don't want 707s on King's Lynn services, as state-of-the-art as they are, that'd be evil! (And even the 365s will soon be limited to the Peterborough fasts...)

And of course adding to the lunacy with the return of the 442s !!! :roll:

 

[swt_passenger]

The photos I have seen of the inside of a Class 707 show 1+2 seating with wide isles for seating ... so really only suited for high density metro work.

That's only in a specific area, (albeit widely photographed); most seating is 2+2.
But I don't know the detailed reasoning about the 0.25/0.35 decision by DfT, all I can do is quote the relevant parts of the ITT.

 

[The Ham]

How about sending them to live out their days on the Lymington Branch, like the slam door trains did!!!

 

[swt class 450]

If they get rid of the 707s then i am thinking the Sussex Coastway services would be a good place for them to go to replace the 313s (especially considering Govia already have 700s and soon 717s as well).

 

[158756]

I can't believe were discussing the future of a unit that hasn't even been delivered yet.

I didn't think that the lunacy that is happening with Greater Anglia with a crazy amount of trains being delivered to replace stock that doesn't even need replacing in some cases could be topped but now we are talking about replacing trains that haven't even been delivered yet, let alone entered into service.

It's clear the UK needs more rolling stock, but we've gone from a situation where nobody was ordering anything to the point where we are seeing crazy amounts of rolling stock being ordered every franchise and the users is going to end up having to pay for it.

I don't think this is as bad as Greater Anglia, as long as the 707s find a home. There's the 313s to replace and Southeastern need more stock. There are probably enough third rail trains for a while though.

Greater Anglia looks crazy though, as the vast majority of their trains will not find another use.

There's still a DMU shortage though, and a massive number of sprinters with only another decade in them. The South Western announcement doesn't do anything for that, despite probably having the best case for new diesels of anyone.

 

[Class455]

I don't think this is as bad as Greater Anglia, as long as the 707s find a home. There's the 313s to replace and Southeastern need more stock. There are probably enough third rail trains for a while though.

Greater Anglia looks crazy though, as the vast majority of their trains will not find another use.

There's still a DMU shortage though, and a massive number of sprinters with only another decade in them. The South Western announcement doesn't do anything for that, despite probably having the best case for new diesels of anyone.

455/7's converted to 3 car (minus the 508 trailer) or 377/3's would be ideal replacements for the 313's. I would most probably think these will end up at Southeastern as Grayling has already said that more carriages are needed, and now that these are becoming spare, why spend money on new trains?

 

[southern442]

455/7's converted to 3 car (minus the 508 trailer) or 377/3's would be ideal replacements for the 313's. I would most probably think these will end up at Southeastern as Grayling has already said that more carriages are needed, and now that these are becoming spare, why spend money on new trains?

I think SWT did have some 455's on the coastway line at one point. So far the ideas that seem to make the most sense are the ones about replacing the 387's on GN which can then be sent to c2c. The idea of building yet more new trains just because c2c wants them to be new sounds like a miserable waste of money, especially when at least 150 EMU's from various places are soon to be made surplus.

I actually can't think of anywhere else for them to go where it would make sense, but then again there are some units that haven't even been delivered yet that have already been announced for replacement. Maybe chuck them at Southeastern somewhere? What if they electrified a few more places or re-opened some railway lines?

 

[RichJF]

I'm by no means in the business; but I have a gut feeling these will move across to GTR (alongside their other Desiros) & end up working the metro diagrams that 455's currently work.

Whatever (SWT or Southern) 455's will move to the Coastway & the 313's will be retired. Just a hunch!

 

[urpert]

455/7's converted to 3 car (minus the 508 trailer) or 377/3's would be ideal replacements for the 313's. I would most probably think these will end up at Southeastern as Grayling has already said that more carriages are needed, and now that these are becoming spare, why spend money on new trains?

Everyone is suggesting Southeastern, but the issue is that SE metro services need to be either 12car (for Charing X/Cannon St) or 8car (for Victoria). The 376s are already a poor fit at 5/10 car length and I can't see more 5 car units being a sensible choice.

It would seem equally ridiculous to spend more money to reconfigure them to 4/8car when they haven't even finished building them yet.

Having said all this, recent franchise awards and the just-published consultation do make it seem very likely that the Networkers will go in the next Southeastern franchise. I certainly wouldn't miss them.

 

[Kite159]

I agree with RichJF, they would be suitable replacements for the Southern 455s, as the Southern Metro tries to be a 10-car railway.

The shortfall being made up by the additional 377s Southern will have due to Thameslink

 

[philjo]

Presumbaly they could be reconifgured into some 6 car and some 4 car sets so they could run in 8s or 12s for the routes there 10 cars is insufficient or likewise too long.

Otherwise, send some to northern - I assume these have SDO so could run on the airedale line where currently a 4 car 333 is rammed in the peak ?

Or tell Welsh government that there some EMUs available if they can get funding approval to get the wires done in the valleys !

 

[hwl]

Right I just had very very good look at the official Siemens 707 spec sheet, all I can say is it look like the spec was judged very wrongly...

https://www.mobility.siemens.com/mo...latform/brochure-desiro-city-class-707-en.pdf

Desiro Cities:
Each half of an 8 car 700 has a transformer with 4 secondary windings, one for each traction electronics box which has 2 separate sets of electronics each of which powers a traction motor (8 motors per 4car half unit), each 700 traction motor is 207kw (281hp) and an 8 car has 16 and 12 car 24 i.e. 50% powered axles.

Now turning to the 707s. It appears an epic mistake in spec was agreed when ordering the stock leading to it being one of the earliest withdrawls in recent years if the First MTR rumours are true.

707s have all powered axles in driving cars (8 axles) with 3 trailers in-between (including the pantograph /transformer car.) So 40% powered axles but the traction motors are just 150KW (204hp). So performance wise they are equivalent to a 4car networker that has had an extra trailer car added to make 5 car unit!!!
A 5car 707 only has 60% of the tractive power of a 5car 377/6 or /7.

The 707 spec looks cunningly cheap as it has the bare minimum of everything and looks like it assumed the units would stay in 3rd rail land for their whole life and unlike all the other Siemens Desiro and Desiro City unit won’t have needed software throttling of power draw when on 3rd rail DC.
The max acceleration is just 0.85ms^-2 unlike virtually all other current design EMUs of 1.0ms^-2

Hence these units aren't actually high performance metro unit and it is very easy to see why MTR don't want them.
Epic mistake!

 

[phoenixcronin]

If one of the trailers was removed then the performance would be more adequate

 

[hwl]

If one of the trailers was removed then the performance would be more adequate

Precisely...

 

[urpert]

If one of the trailers was removed then the performance would be more adequate

Cheap + just about adequate + 4-car... starting to sound more and more like it's going to suit Southeastern!

Surely it wouldn't be politically acceptable in 2017 to scrap trailer cars that had never turned a wheel in passenger service though?

 

[Roast Veg]

They could be returned or reformed into other new desiro city units without too much difficulty.

 

[hwl]

They could be returned or reformed into other new desiro city units without too much difficulty.

Not without some major re-engineering if you want to go to 6car...

 

[Roast Veg]

Which is why they could all go to 4 car, and the carriages put into new build sets.

 

[Monty]

Right I just had very very good look at the official Siemens 707 spec sheet, all I can say is it look like the spec was judged very wrongly...

https://www.mobility.siemens.com/mo...latform/brochure-desiro-city-class-707-en.pdf

Desiro Cities:
Each half of an 8 car 700 has a transformer with 4 secondary windings, one for each traction electronics box which has 2 separate sets of electronics each of which powers a traction motor (8 motors per 4car half unit), each 700 traction motor is 207kw (281hp) and an 8 car has 16 and 12 car 24 i.e. 50% powered axles.

Now turning to the 707s. It appears an epic mistake in spec was agreed when ordering the stock leading to it being one of the earliest withdrawls in recent years if the First MTR rumours are true.

707s have all powered axles in driving cars (8 axles) with 3 trailers in-between (including the pantograph /transformer car.) So 40% powered axles but the traction motors are just 150KW (204hp). So performance wise they are equivalent to a 4car networker that has had an extra trailer car added to make 5 car unit!!!
A 5car 707 only has 60% of the tractive power of a 5car 377/6 or /7.

The 707 spec looks cunningly cheap as it has the bare minimum of everything and looks like it assumed the units would stay in 3rd rail land for their whole life and unlike all the other Siemens Desiro and Desiro City unit won’t have needed software throttling of power draw when on 3rd rail DC.
The max acceleration is just 0.85ms^-2 unlike virtually all other current design EMUs of 1.0ms^-2

Hence these units aren't actually high performance metro unit and it is very easy to see why MTR don't want them.
Epic mistake!

I currently sign 707s and I don't think it's nearly as bad as you say. They are noticeably quicker at both acceleration and breaking than a 450 Desiro despite having identical traction packages.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I currently sign 707s and I don't think it's nearly as bad as you say. They are noticeably quicker at both acceleration and breaking than a 450 Desiro despite having identical traction packages.

Aren't they quite a lot lighter than the relatively heavyweight "traditional" Desiro?

 

[westcoaster]

Could they head back for a face ( cab) transplant and become 717's. Add an extra car with toilet and you have a 6 car unit.

 

[3141]

Could they head back for a face ( cab) transplant and become 717's. Add an extra car with toilet and you have a 6 car unit.

...which would be designated 6LAV.

Explanation for those who aren't older: there was an SR 4 car EMU in which, if my memory is correct, just one car had a toilet, and they were called 4LAV.

Presumably, the 707s as currently configured should be 5NOL.