Future of Class 707

[387star]

Sorry so as these are being tested do they still eneter service with swt for a few months or what

 

[Clansman]

Not going to happen, but I can't help but think the 707s (fitted with a pantograph) would be a great fit in and around Glasgow for many reasons both from a passenger and operations perspective, as well as on the maintenance front - assuming they share similarities with the 380s in that respect?

Only in the South are brand spanking new trains being deemed surplus to requirements!

 

[Starmill]

They will be in service until their replacements are ready to enter service. Given their replacements haven't been ordered until the contracts are all signed (a few more weeks?) that will be some years yet.

 

[SF-02]

Lots of mentions of sending them to SE. Bit stupid to send 10 car trains to a railway that has seen millions spent recently to become mostly 12 car ready. Unless they can be made 6 cars long then its a repeat of the 376 mistake. When these were ordered I wondered why the 30 odd 376s didn't go to SWT Metro and SE order trains for 12 car running with SDO

 

[applepie2100]

Not going to happen, but I can't help but think the 707s (fitted with a pantograph) would be a great fit in and around Glasgow for many reasons both from a passenger and operations perspective, as well as on the maintenance front - assuming they share similarities with the 380s in that respect?

Only in the South are brand spanking new trains being deemed surplus to requirements!

They'd be fantastic to allow all day five car running on the North Clyde lines such as Balloch to Airdrie or the Argyle Line.

We can dream!

 

[J-2739]

I was thinking, couldn't an extra car be fitted, so they can operate on the cross city lines?

 

[Bungle965]

I was thinking, couldn't an extra car be fitted, so they can operate on the cross city lines?

In one word,
No.
Sam

 

[SpacePhoenix]

They will be in service until their replacements are ready to enter service. Given their replacements haven't been ordered until the contracts are all signed (a few more weeks?) that will be some years yet.

By that time it wouldn't surprise me to see them replace absolutely all their EMUs with a new build (apart from Island Line)

 

[MrCub]

If you buy cheap you buy twice (albeit cheaply specified rather than actually cheap-to-buy).

Parts of the country crying out for more diesel trains with other places overrun with redundant electrics including some that haven't been built yet. You couldn't make it up.

Oh well.

 

[The Ham]

What's to stop First using 707's on services like the Basingstoke stoppers (lengthens off peak trains to 10 coaches from 8) or the Alton services (again longer off peak trains)?

They would need loos fitted, but the loss of capacity wouldn't be an issue as there would still be an increase in overall capacity. The main problem would be shuffling stock to get 12 coach trains for the peak hour services.

Other places that could benefit could be the Ascot Guildford services (which are currently 4 coach trains with, IIRC, no loos) or services along the south coast.

It would all be a fairly dull way of using them, but there is probably scope that they could stay with the same franchise but just not be used on the London metro services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They'd probably work for Merseyrail, couldn't be doubled up though.

 

[agerj001]

This is a theory, but could the 707s be simply retained, ut extended 10 ten cars each? additional 5 cars x 30 units = 150 cars.
Plus 60 x 10 car units = 60 new trains, totaling the 90 units plus '750 new vehicles'.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they were extended to 10 car units, would coaches 5 and 6 have the same setup of traction motors as coaches 1 and 10?

 

[59CosG95]

In one word,
No.
Sam

Acceleration is key for the route; the main reason why LM (or WMR as they're about to be known) haven't got rid of them is because they VOOM out of stations. Their acceleration is unrivalled in the UK EMU world, 350s can't keep up with them!

 

[westcoaster]

If they are due to be released around 2019-20, could they be moved onto the Corby electrified services as they are due to commence around then, if they were refurbished into a regional 2+2 layout with tables. Add an extra car with toilet and associated gubbins giving a length of 120m. Double these up in service to get 240m 12 car trains, ( I saw planning concent for Kettering, corby and wellingborough stations to be ext3nded to fit 240m trains), also Kettering stabling sidings will be ready around 2019. They could use Bedford Cauldwell Depot as a home depot/Base.

 

[Townsend Hook]

They'd probably work for Merseyrail, couldn't be doubled up though.

Theoretically, but zero chance in practice as Merseyrail already has a replacement fleet in order.

 

[59CosG95]

If they are due to be released around 2019-20, could they be moved onto the Corby electrified services as they are due to commence around then, if they were refurbished into a regional 2+2 layout with tables. Add an extra car with toilet and associated gubbins giving a length of 120m. Double these up in service to get 240m 12 car trains, ( I saw planning concent for Kettering, corby and wellingborough stations to be ext3nded to fit 240m trains), also Kettering stabling sidings will be ready around 2019. They could use Bedford Cauldwell Depot as a home depot/Base.

They wouldn't need much of a livery change at all in that case! Perhaps SWT and EMT have been tipping each other winks in case Stagecoach lost the SW franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Theoretically, but zero chance in practice as Merseyrail already has a replacement fleet in order.

Indeed, and Merseyrail's new fleet is a lot more specialised.

 

[physics34]

Indeed, and Merseyrail's new fleet is a lot more specialised.

Yep..not too sure the desiro city body will fit down the tunnels

 

[urpert]

Not to mention the end door question.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yep..not too sure the desiro city body will fit down the tunnels

I'm sure they'd fit, as they're surely not fatter than a 66? They'd be less than ideal though, and as has already been said there's already plans afoot for replacement.

 

[phil281]

Regarding 313 replacement on the coastway, i believe the plan is they will go when certain southern routes go over to thameslink and the freed up 377s go to the coastway.

The 707s in theory could replace 455s on southern metro work but would need platforms on the tulse hill line, the Wimbledon loop as well as the Tattenham and Caterham branches extended to 10 coaches

 

[swt_passenger]

Regarding 313 replacement on the coastway, i believe the plan is they will go when certain southern routes go over to thameslink and the freed up 377s go to the coastway.

The GTR insider (who used to post here) said quite a few times that there were no plans to replace the 313s with 377s during the current franchise.

 

[Fuzzytop]

I have only an elementary knowledge of the rosco leasing systems, but can't there be quite severe penalties for returning stock early? The 313/2s on Coastway are definitely leased until 2021.

 

[Starmill]

They'd be fantastic to allow all day five car running on the North Clyde lines such as Balloch to Airdrie or the Argyle Line.

We can dream!

Surely the far better option is for ScotRail to take some of the abundance of homeless 321s coming up soon and use those in 3 car to strengthen Argyle line and A-B services? Far cheaper, equally clean and modern and higher in capacity.

 

[Sunset route]

The GTR insider (who used to post here) said quite a few times that there were no plans to replace the 313s with 377s during the current franchise.

There were no plans original to move 387s instead of 337/5 to Great Northern but it happened. If there is one thing you can say about the UK multiple train market is its very dynamic and fluid at the moment.

Does any one know how may 377s Southern use in metro service alongside their 455s. Because maybe if it is true that SWT are not going to retain the 707s then maybe they could go to Southern Metro to replace the 455s and Southern and South Eastern could swap 377s and 376s so Southern has a complete 5/10 car metro and South Eastern Metros could become 12cars 377s. But as this is only a thought I've not sat down to even think if there could be enough 377s released by a combined 376s, 700, 707, taking over Southern routes to be of any use.

 

[Sunset route]

Regarding 313 replacement on the coastway, i believe the plan is they will go when certain southern routes go over to thameslink and the freed up 377s go to the coastway.

The 707s in theory could replace 455s on southern metro work but would need platforms on the tulse hill line, the Wimbledon loop as well as the Tattenham and Caterham branches extended to 10 coaches

The branches only run as 5 car max combining and splitting at Purley so station lengths on the branches are not the limiting factor there.

 

[Chris125]

Aren't they quite a lot lighter than the relatively heavyweight "traditional" Desiro?

Yes, a significant reduction

Bogies, car bodies, interiors and the electrical equipment including the cabling, as an example, are weight optimised – resulting in up to 25% weight reduction compared to the existing UK fleets.

As a result, the vehicle is able to reduce its primary energy consumption by as much as up to 50%.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

First like Desiros, don't they? Why wouldn't they simply order more Class 707s?

They did in 2003 when they ordered the 185s for TPE.
I'm not quite sure who ordered the 380s in 2008 (First or Transport Scotland).
They were "given" the 350/4s for TPE as a result of being allocated part of the Govia order for LM, and of course already had a Siemens depot in Manchester.
However, in the recent spree to re-equip the TPE fleet for the new franchise, they dumped half the 185s and ordered (among other things) EMUs from CAF (class 397).

 

[Goldfish62]

Regarding 313 replacement on the coastway, i believe the plan is they will go when certain southern routes go over to thameslink and the freed up 377s go to the coastway.

The 707s in theory could replace 455s on southern metro work but would need platforms on the tulse hill line, the Wimbledon loop as well as the Tattenham and Caterham branches extended to 10 coaches

They've got ASDO because there are a significant number of short platforms on the Windsor lines, so that wouldn't be an issue.