Future of Class 379

[Peter Sarf]

It doesn't matter if half the trains have been built or not - if they are not up to scratch then there is the possibility that the order is cancelled. The problem then is Alstom's as the builder of such dross. Given that the whole fleet was due in service by December 2020 and that none have entered service so far, I'd say SWR and DfT would be quite within their rights to cancel the order. Incidentally this is exactly what ÖBB has done with the Talent 3 fleet ordered from Bombardier (yes, them again) - they've placed a contract with Siemens for more Desiro ML sets instead.

Although I cannot see SWR turning their back on the class 701s built in the UK there are a few things to whinge/think about. I have to wonder at the scale of the order and the lack of alternative suppliers that brought this about. If we had more competition within train manufacturing then the mistakes would hopefully not be so large. I am reminded that Siemens were declining to tender for certain fleets (Crossrail/EL iirc) as they did not believe they had the capacity do deliver on time. Did Bombardier knowingly make promises it could not keep ?. If that is true then a very clear message needs to be sent to manufacturers in the future. But then it would be ironic if Alstom were left holding the baby.

 

[Doomotron]

Umm no? Getting rid of popular Marshlink and Uckfield services would be more politically unacceptable. The future of those lines is battery or electrification.

They didn't even suggest getting rid of the services though... Granted, their comment was a bit cynical anyway.

 

[Energy]

They didn't even suggest getting rid of the services though... Granted, their comment was a bit cynical anyway.

Scrap without replacement would be a removal of services as nothing else can operate them in the Southern fleet.

 

[Doomotron]

Scrap without replacement would be a removal of services as nothing else can operate them in the Southern fleet.

Again, you're assuming removal of the services was what they meant.

 

[Trainbike46]

Again, you're assuming removal of the services was what they meant.

if you remove the only units in the fleet that could operate these services, and do not replace them with anything, what other things than removing the services could they have meant?

 

[Doomotron]

if you remove the only units in the fleet that could operate these services, and do not replace them with anything, what other things than removing the services could they have meant?

I can't believe I need to explain that they obviously aren't saying they want to get rid of the Marshlink and Uckfield services, just that the 171s won't get a like-for-like diesel replacement. @MattRat could you please explain what you meant in more detail in your post.

 

[MattRat]

I can't believe I need to explain that they obviously aren't saying they want to get rid of the Marshlink and Uckfield services, just that the 171s won't get a like-for-like diesel replacement. @MattRat could you please explain what you meant in more detail in your post.

I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if the government got rid of the services in the name of 'decarbonization'. I just don't have any faith in them any more.

 

[RobShipway]

if you remove the only units in the fleet that could operate these services, and do not replace them with anything, what other things than removing the services could they have meant?

I can't believe I need to explain that they obviously aren't saying they want to get rid of the Marshlink and Uckfield services, just that the 171s won't get a like-for-like diesel replacement. @MattRat could you please explain what you meant in more detail in your post.

I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if the government got rid of the services in the name of 'decarbonization'. I just don't have any faith in them any more.

I would imagine if there is going to be replacement for the class 171 units, then I would suspect that these should be bi - mode or tri - mode units and probably would be ordered in conjunction with other TOC's or have similar or the same requirements such as SWR, GWR, Northern, Scotrail and XC in replacing class 15x units.

But he class 171 fleet and whether the Marshlink or Uckfield lines should continue running or not in favour of decarbonisation, I think is for another thread, if one is not already within the speculation area!

 

[Pdf]

I notice that class class 717 only runs until 30th September 2023. Does that mean that GTR should be looking for replacements for the class 717 units?

There is nothing that could replace the 717s as the northern city line has quite specific requirements: 6 car, emergency exit end gangways, and ETCS ready.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It doesn't matter if half the trains have been built or not - if they are not up to scratch then there is the possibility that the order is cancelled. The problem then is Alstom's as the builder of such dross. Given that the whole fleet was due in service by December 2020 and that none have entered service so far, I'd say SWR and DfT would be quite within their rights to cancel the order. Incidentally this is exactly what ÖBB has done with the Talent 3 fleet ordered from Bombardier (yes, them again) - they've placed a contract with Siemens for more Desiro ML sets instead.

However SWR have already accepted quite a lot of 701s…

 

[MattRat]

However SWR have already accepted quite a lot of 701s…

Does that stop them handing them elsewhere though? Like SouthEastern.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does that stop them handing them elsewhere though? Like SouthEastern.

My guess is that if SWR were to ditch the 701s then they would be so much of a problem that SouthEastern will be even less interested.

I have lost track of what connection this has with the 379s btw.

The main issue is that there are more EMUs than the electrified lines need. The 379s are proof of that. We need more electrification.

 

[D_Sims97]

i believe the 379s can run on batteries so would there still be a need for DC Shoes or 25kV overhead?

 

[zwk500]

i believe the 379s can run on batteries so would there still be a need for DC Shoes or 25kV overhead?

You'd need at least one or the other to charge the batteries.

 

[JonathanH]

i believe the 379s can run on batteries

They would need to be fitted first.

 

[D365]

They would need to be fitted first.

And designed.

 

[jon0844]

There is nothing that could replace the 717s as the northern city line has quite specific requirements: 6 car, emergency exit end gangways, and ETCS ready.

And said in-cab signalling testing is already underway and progressing quite well, so you'd be crazy to rock the boat in the future given all the potential nightmares.

 

[Poyntz]

There's a Worksop Sims Newport run on 28th. Just saying.

 

[Class15]

There's a Worksop Sims Newport run on 28th. Just saying.

Not surprised. We all saw this coming.

 

[Trainguy34]

Does anyone have a precise date of the first service, I know it was sometime in March 2011...

 

[bramling]

Not surprised. We all saw this coming.

I thought there were still some 321s stored at Worksop?

 

[Energy]

I thought there were still some 321s stored at Worksop?

At least some are at Worksop going by this post (24th May 2023)

currently in secure storage at Worksop pending final arrangements for the site. It will be moved down by road in due course.

And before someone asks, unfortunately, we still cannot confirm the unit number. When we are allowed to disclose we will.

 

[43102EMR]

There's a Worksop Sims Newport run on 28th. Just saying.

I highly doubt it’s a 379 with 321s still on the site.

 

[Class15]

I thought there were still some 321s stored at Worksop?

Phew, thanks for that. I thought the 321s were at Wembley, gascoigne wood and Walton old junction. The 379s live another day then.

 

[JonathanH]

Phew, thanks for that. I thought the 321s were at Wembley, gascoigne wood and Walton old junction. The 379s live another day then.

The Renatus 321s are at Wembley and Walton Old Junction. There are non-Renatus 321s at Worksop. Not sure there are any at Gascoigne Wood.

 

[Class15]

The Renatus 321s are at Wembley and Walton Old Junction. There are non-Renatus 321s at Worksop. Not sure there are any at Gascoigne Wood.

Either there are or there were.

 

[AlexNL]

As long as the 379s are still listed on Akiem's website, I wouldn't worry too much about them going for scrap.

 

[Class15]

As long as the 379s are still listed on Akiem's website, I wouldn't worry too much about them going for scrap.

I worry about them, there’s no takers at the moment and with a massive surplus of EMUs I don’t see them going anywhere but Newport (or Rotherham).

 

[03_179]

I worry about them, there’s no takers at the moment and with a massive surplus of EMUs I don’t see them going anywhere but Newport (or Rotherham).

Don't put any money on that will you.

 

[Class15]

Don't put any money on that will you.

If it’s being offered, I happily would. I’m 90% sure they’re not going to find a new home. I’m 100% sure they should find a new home, but that’s a different matter.