Future of Class 379

[zwk500]

379s are just as capable of being modified for ETCS as 387s though, there is nothing fundamental stopping it from being fitted.

That's just an excuse trotted out by people who - for whatever reason - refuse to accept the possibility that more stock is needed.

But somebody has to pay for it.

 

[43074]

But somebody has to pay for it.

but but but ETCS must be cheaper than conventional signalling

 

[Doomotron]

But somebody has to pay for it.

They have to pay for it with 387s too...

 

[Southern Dvr]

Although in this case leasing the stock to GTR certainly wouldn't result in shipping fresh air, as you put it.

It’s a self fulfilling prophecy, the trains aren’t empty. People are travelling. Numbers won’t grow at a decent rate if the railway is uninviting.

As for the protection during the pandemic, if the government had actually done something instead of partying the night away they could have worked a sensible plan to protect the railways then and save money.

 

[DanNCL]

Also what costs of modifications? 379s need work on them because they've been out of use for ages not because they are fundamentally unsuitable for use on GN.

In any case the cost of making them operational again would be on Akiem not the DFT.

 

[JonathanH]

In any case the cost of making them operational again would be on Akiem not the DFT.

Yes, although then wrapped up into the lease cost of units which are speculated to already be too expensive to lease.

 

[theblackwatch]

Can anyone confirm which sets are still at Harwich please? By my reckoning it's 006/008/021/025/026 - but I may of course be wrong!

 

[03_179]

Can anyone fill in the unknown locations please.
I've lost touch with moves etc. but the dates listed are what is on an internal system.

Unit	Location
379001	Ilford 26/04/2023
379002	Ilford 14/04/2023
379003	Unknown
379004	Unknown
379005	Unknown
379006	Unknown
379007	Unknown
379008	Unknown
379009	Worksop up Recp 14/04/2023
379010	Unknown
379011	Ilford 26/04/2023
379012	Unknown
379013	Unknown
379014	Unknown
379015	Unknown
379016	Ilford 26/04/2023
379017	Unknown
379018	Ilford 25/04/2023
379019	Unknown
379020	Unknown
379021	Ilford 18/04/2023
379022	Unknown
379023	Ilford 18/04/2023
379024	Unknown
379025	Unknown
379026	Unknown
379027	Worksop Up Recp 14/04/2023
379028	Ilford 25/04/2023
379029	Unknown
379030	Unknown

 

[swt_passenger]

Can anyone fill in the unknown locations please.
I've lost touch with moves etc. but the dates listed are what is on an internal system.

I don’t know the answer, but there’s just been an offer of an updated location list next week, in the other 379 thread in the rolling stock forum...

 

[03_179]

Thanks

 

[317 forever]

SNCF have had no stake in Akiem since last year and it was 50:50 ownership with DWS since 2026 before that.

As the 379s are 50% DWS owned, it's a pity that Stagecoach are no longer involved in UK Rail

 

[43096]

As the 379s are 50% DWS owned

Not any more they aren't: Akiem is now 100% owned by CDPQ, the Canadian investment fund.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Rumour has it that GTR are looking to source some EMU stock for Great Northern.

 

[Class15]

Rumour has it that GTR are looking to source some EMU stock for Great Northern.

379s?!

 

[JonathanH]

Rumour has it that GTR are looking to source some EMU stock for Great Northern.

Discussed here. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-fleet-tender.247756/#post-6195120

They are looking to renew the lease on most or all of 387101-387129. It looks like the only role of the 379s in the tender is to keep Porterbrook's price for the 387s keen.

 

[Snow1964]

Rumour has it that GTR are looking to source some EMU stock for Great Northern.

Not a rumour, there is a tender which is being discussed in this thread

Great Northern Fleet Tender

Thameslink Great Northern have gone out to tender for rolling stock, presumably in the same way that GWR recently did. https://www.delta-esourcing.com/delta/respondToList.html;jsessionid=ED4AA4A5CB38596F97120B5F345FD0F2?noticeId=777675000 Provision of a fleet of between 21, and up to 30 x...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43096]

Discussed here. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-fleet-tender.247756/#post-6195120

They are looking to renew the lease on most or all of 387101-387129. It looks like the only role of the 379s in the tender is to keep Porterbrook's price for the 387s keen.

Except that the National Rail Contract for TSGN shows the lease on the 387/1s expiring on 31 March 2028: https://assets.publishing.service.g...ilway-limited-2022-national-rail-contract.pdf
(Image below of relevant table from the contract document showing 387 lease end dates)


There lots of possible options for why this tender has been published as the cascade alternatives are numerous. Could there be an intent to (finally) cancel the Class 701 order and this is a way of getting stock in to release 707s back to SWR?

Of course, it might not be the 379s that are a given for any extra stock: Porterbrook can offer 350/2s - indeed you could use the 37x350/2s to release all the 387s on GN, thus making the GN (and Hornsey depot) a completely Siemens operation.

 

[JonathanH]

There lots of possible options for why this tender has been published as the cascade alternatives are numerous.

OK, but previous postings have indicated that 387s are the right rolling stock for GN services because of the ease of installing the equipment for ETCS operation. This seems believable.

It is also known that the railway's finances are finite, and both staff training and the lease costs of additional units represent more costs that can only be met by a higher expense from the Treasury.

A 379 > 387 > 377 > 465 > 707 > 455 cascade seems a bit too complex to deliver.

 

[43096]

A 379 > 387 > 377 > 465 > 707 > 455 cascade seems a bit too complex to deliver.

But it minimises costs, particularly for crew competencies, compared with other alternatives.

 

[Energy]

OK, but previous postings have indicated that 387s are the right rolling stock for GN services because of the ease of installing the equipment for ETCS operation. This seems believable.

Its not that different to installing on the 379s. The fitment to the GN 387s would be using different ETCS equipment to the HX ones.

It is also known that the railway's finances are finite, and both staff training and the lease costs of additional units represent more costs that can only be met by a higher expense from the Treasury.

Its a tender for additional stock, the leases on current stock don't end till 2028. Clearly the DfT think they can find some money.

 

[D365]

Its not that different to installing on the 379s. The fitment to the GN 387s would be using different ETCS equipment to the HX ones.

Yep, the Bombardier ETCS (as per 387/1a) is no longer being fitted.

 

[Doomotron]

Could there be an intent to (finally) cancel the Class 701 order and this is a way of getting stock in to release 707s back to SWR?

How would that one work?

 

[43096]

How would that one work?

(say) 379 to GN > 387 to Southern > 377 to South Eastern > 465s release 707s > 707s back to SWR. They would have to retain the 455s as well, obviously, pending a decision on how to replace them.

 

[RobShipway]

Except that the National Rail Contract for TSGN shows the lease on the 387/1s expiring on 31 March 2028: https://assets.publishing.service.g...ilway-limited-2022-national-rail-contract.pdf
(Image below of relevant table from the contract document showing 387 lease end dates)
View attachment 134127

There lots of possible options for why this tender has been published as the cascade alternatives are numerous. Could there be an intent to (finally) cancel the Class 701 order and this is a way of getting stock in to release 707s back to SWR?

Of course, it might not be the 379s that are a given for any extra stock: Porterbrook can offer 350/2s - indeed you could use the 37x350/2s to release all the 387s on GN, thus making the GN (and Hornsey depot) a completely Siemens operation.

What do you do about the class 171, 377/2, 377/3 and class 700 units all of which have a scheduled lease expiry of 31st March 2028.

I notice that class class 717 only runs until 30th September 2023. Does that mean that GTR should be looking for replacements for the class 717 units?

I have not fully read the PDF https://assets.publishing.service.g...ilway-limited-2022-national-rail-contract.pdf but I would be surprised if there is not an automatic renewal of the lease for the class 717 units for at least another 5 years and the same with the class 377/378 units when expiry comes up in 2028.

I also suspect that the class 701 units will enter revenue service this year and with half the fleet now having been built, i think it would be more costly to cancel the order than to see the class 701 enter revenue service. Hence, I do not see the class 707 units going back to SWR. I still expect that by the end of the year that the class 707 units with SWR will go to South Eastern.

379 > 387 > 377 > 465 > 707 > 455

Whilst the class 379's might replace the class 387's with Great Northern and so the 387's then go to Southern, which releases class 377 units to South Eastern, I do not see class 465 replacing class 707 units at South Eastern and I also do not see class 707 units replacing class 455 units at SWR. In fact I would say that it will be class 701 units that replace class 455 units as originally planned.

What nobody is thinking about in the replacement process starting with the class 379 above,, is what is to happen with the class 458 units? What is the expiry date for the lease on the class 444/450 with SWR?

 

[43102EMR]

Whilst the class 379's might replace the class 387's with Great Northern and so the 387's then go to Southern, which releases class 377 units to South Eastern, I do not see class 465 replacing class 707 units at South Eastern and I also do not see class 707 units replacing class 455 units at SWR. In fact I would say that it will be class 701 units that replace class 455 units as originally planned.

If anything, it will just cause an internal cascade within GTR to prevent shortforms - that is if it does happen.

 

[JonathanH]

If anything, it will just cause an internal cascade within GTR to prevent shortforms - that is if it does happen.

Preventing shortforms doesn't justify spending multi millions on train leases.

 

[43096]

I also suspect that the class 701 units will enter revenue service this year and with half the fleet now having been built, i think it would be more costly to cancel the order than to see the class 701 enter revenue service. Hence, I do not see the class 707 units going back to SWR. I still expect that by the end of the year that the class 707 units with SWR will go to South Eastern.

It doesn't matter if half the trains have been built or not - if they are not up to scratch then there is the possibility that the order is cancelled. The problem then is Alstom's as the builder of such dross. Given that the whole fleet was due in service by December 2020 and that none have entered service so far, I'd say SWR and DfT would be quite within their rights to cancel the order. Incidentally this is exactly what ÖBB has done with the Talent 3 fleet ordered from Bombardier (yes, them again) - they've placed a contract with Siemens for more Desiro ML sets instead.

 

[Energy]

What do you do about the class 171, 377/2, 377/3 and class 700 units all of which have a scheduled lease expiry of 31st March 2028.

Nothing for now? They'll negotiate a new/longer lease in a few years time.

Preventing shortforms doesn't justify spending multi millions on train leases.

Leasing adequate rolling stock to deliver the service to the public is a bad spend of money? As they've put the tender out they obviously think they can find enough money to pay for it.

 

[MattRat]

Nothing for now? They'll negotiate a new/longer lease in a few years time.

Or scrap without replacement in the case of the 171s, since diesels will be politically unacceptable around that time, but buying new stock will still be off the table.

 

[Energy]

Or scrap without replacement in the case of the 171s, since diesels will be politically unacceptable around that time, but buying new stock will still be off the table.

Umm no? Getting rid of popular Marshlink and Uckfield services would be more politically unacceptable. The future of those lines is battery or electrification.