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Future of Class 379

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Ayman Ilham

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You hadn't already?
Not quite, but with two Avanti Voyagers gone to cold storage instead of CrossCountry (which desperately need more capacity and the Voyagers make perfect sense to join the rest of the fleet) and now the future of relatively new trains (the 379) is on the brink of scrappage after many decent mid-life trains being wasted, I'm ready to throw in the towel and give up on this joke of a broken country they call the 'UK' - it's just left a terrible taste on the railways here
 
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Ayman Ilham

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It isn't just the railways, everything in this country seems to be either broken or on its knees at the moment, and seemingly no coherent strategy for how to get out of this mess.
Not to be rude, but there's more to a country than how they run their railways.
Exactly, but I specifically mentioned the railways cos of how glaringly mismanaged that is in particular (given how much I love train travel), especially its importance in getting people out of car centricity. The worse the railways get, the more people will end up going to cars (as not as many people are willing to be seen dead on a bus, as much as I hate to say it) which ultimately leads to more soulless infrastructure to cater for cars over people. Many factors are making us resent this broken country, but scrapping of modern units when there's a capacity crisis combined with the time it'll take to get more new trains built & in-service, that's the final nail in the coffin for me! Apologies for going a bit off topic, I'll end the rant here.
 
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zwk500

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It isn't just the railways, everything in this country seems to be either broken or on its knees at the moment, and seemingly no coherent strategy for how to get out of this mess.
Have a look at my location, and guess whether or not I agree with you! :lol:
 

43096

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Honestly, if the 379s do get scrapped, I'll officially have lost ALL faith in UK railways FULL STOP. We finally have more than enough trains to solve capacity problems and now the DfT no longer have the resources to utilise them; time to consider relocating to a country that can actually manage their railways properly like Switzerland or Morocco.

You hadn't already?
It's only unofficial currently...
 

D365

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I'm not going to get emotional about the Class 379s, which are ultimately a privately owned asset.
 

Mikey C

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To be fair to the government, nobody expected the whole business model of the railways in the Southeast, which needed vast numbers of long trains to carry commuters into London, to be suddenly impacted by Covid and then WFH. Commuter numbers are significantly down, that's the reality, and they may never return to 2019 levels. Especially with the current strikes forcing people back into WFH habits again.

Combine that with tough economic circumstances, and difficult decisions have to be made. I'm not saying the government has got them all right, but that's the reality of the current situation.
 

JonathanH

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I'm not going to get emotional about the Class 379s, which are ultimately a privately owned asset.
Absolutely. No one gets upset about empty office blocks or shop units and begs that a use is found for them.

Plenty of empty purpose built bank branches which are surplus to requirements because the relevant industry has changed that aren't ever going to be banks again. Railway rolling stock is no different.
 

gmaguire

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If the owner is willing to make them work on the third rail, it opens up the possibility of Southeastern using them for partial Networker replacement. 30 379s could probably replace the 34 465/9s, especially since a few of those are out of use at the moment. If they can be made to work with the 375s then even better.

I would have thought getting an AC only train to work on DC would be easier than the other way around. Does the AC just get stepped down and rectified to DC anyway? It's not like they'd have to be dual voltage either, just DC only for Southeastern. And I would have thought Bombardier could provide shoe beams etc.
 

ashkeba

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Absolutely. No one gets upset about empty office blocks or shop units and begs that a use is found for them.

Plenty of empty purpose built bank branches which are surplus to requirements because the relevant industry has changed that aren't ever going to be banks again. Railway rolling stock is no different.
It is panto season, so 'oh yes they do!' Especially banks. In Norwich, the Cozy Club is in an old NatWest, while a short distance away, Gurney's Bank hosts concerts. The former HSBC at Mitcham Corner in Cambridge is being turned into a café and crypto bar. The Bank House in King's Lynn is a hotel. The desire not to destroy useful stock is not only trains.
 

Southern Dvr

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If the owner is willing to make them work on the third rail, it opens up the possibility of Southeastern using them for partial Networker replacement. 30 379s could probably replace the 34 465/9s, especially since a few of those are out of use at the moment. If they can be made to work with the 375s then even better.

I would have thought getting an AC only train to work on DC would be easier than the other way around. Does the AC just get stepped down and rectified to DC anyway? It's not like they'd have to be dual voltage either, just DC only for Southeastern. And I would have thought Bombardier could provide shoe beams etc.
I mean the simple question is why?

What possible reason is there to bother doing that?

You have to accept that the current modus operandi of the government is that nobody is travelling and nobody wants to and that suits their run it into the ground narrative.

If you build it then will come, if you knock it down they might notice it’s not there any more. Unfortunately the government attitude is not only knock it down but also don’t let anyone else build on it. Remember the TOCs would quite like to expand and do more. The government are the ones stopping them.

But we digress. Back to 379s. If no use can be found for them on AC land (spoiler alert it can’t) then they’ll be disposed of.
 

Snow1964

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It is such a shame there is no decent push pull fitted diesel loco available to work with them

Out here in the west struggling with overcrowded trains, the 379s are spare, could help solve the crisis on struggling diesel routes.

Might not be perfect solution effectively turning them into trailer sets, but has to be better than trying to patch up and keep running 30+ year old diesel multiple units that are well past their prime.

We can all dream, but just imagine if wires had been installed on Filton bank, the 379s could run on Bristol-Cardiff part of Portsmouth-Cardiff, then at Bristol where they reverse and wait, could have coupled on the loco and sent it south. If Bournemouth could add/remove 33/1s for years then presumably Bristol could. Perhaps not best example as really want 120m long trains, not 80m trains on the route, but I am sure somewhere could use them in push-pull mode to allow a cascade of scarce diesel stock.
 

RobShipway

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It is such a shame there is no decent push pull fitted diesel loco available to work with them

Out here in the west struggling with overcrowded trains, the 379s are spare, could help solve the crisis on struggling diesel routes.

Might not be perfect solution effectively turning them into trailer sets, but has to be better than trying to patch up and keep running 30+ year old diesel multiple units that are well past their prime.

We can all dream, but just imagine if wires had been installed on Filton bank, the 379s could run on Bristol-Cardiff part of Portsmouth-Cardiff, then at Bristol where they reverse and wait, could have coupled on the loco and sent it south. If Bournemouth could add/remove 33/1s for years then presumably Bristol could. Perhaps not best example as really want 120m long trains, not 80m trains on the route, but I am sure somewhere could use them in push-pull mode to allow a cascade of scarce diesel stock.
It is all down to whether the owners heart is in finding work for the trains and whether the Government will allow it to happen. It also depends on whether the demand for such services is there.

Within Sussex, we have 40 plus class 313's operating local routes. Now, if you added third rail shoes to them, then they would be a good replacement for the class 313 units. However, there is not so many of the 18 units now in use so you would not be using all the 30 class 379 units though.

You make reference to 30+ year old diesel multiple units that are well past their prime, I am presuming that you mean the class 150/158/165/166 units. Try living by the Seaford - Brighton line where you have 40 year plus class 313 units. At least the class 150/158/165/166 units have toilets!

I cannot see the class 379 units being loco hauled though to be honest, if diesel was to be involved then it would be more likely that a diesel engine would be added to each of the class 379 units. But I cannot see that happening either. It would be more likely that battery packs would be added to them.
 

Southern Dvr

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No. It’s not a shame there’s no push pull locos available.

The shame is that there’s no desire to use the units in their as built condition on lines with the appropriate electrification that are in need of decent new rolling stock.

People, please, stop thinking of conversions for these units. If they cannot be made to work in their current condition they just aren’t gonna work in any environment.
 

zwk500

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It is such a shame there is no decent push pull fitted diesel loco available to work with them

Out here in the west struggling with overcrowded trains, the 379s are spare, could help solve the crisis on struggling diesel routes.

Might not be perfect solution effectively turning them into trailer sets, but has to be better than trying to patch up and keep running 30+ year old diesel multiple units that are well past their prime.

We can all dream, but just imagine if wires had been installed on Filton bank, the 379s could run on Bristol-Cardiff part of Portsmouth-Cardiff, then at Bristol where they reverse and wait, could have coupled on the loco and sent it south. If Bournemouth could add/remove 33/1s for years then presumably Bristol could. Perhaps not best example as really want 120m long trains, not 80m trains on the route, but I am sure somewhere could use them in push-pull mode to allow a cascade of scarce diesel stock.
And we come back to this old fallacy. No, leaving locos around at Bristol Temple Meads is not feasible. Bournemouh was/is far less busy than TM, and leaving a loco in the platform at TM takes out 2 platforms so you'll be forever shunting it around the station. They stopped doing loco changes at Bournemouth for a reason. What worked 40 years ago is not feasible today.
 

Snow1964

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And we come back to this old fallacy. No, leaving locos around at Bristol Temple Meads is not feasible. Bournemouh was/is far less busy than TM, and leaving a loco in the platform at TM takes out 2 platforms so you'll be forever shunting it around the station. They stopped doing loco changes at Bournemouth for a reason. What worked 40 years ago is not feasible today.

OK, but in my experience they always use platforms 9 or 11, and although they are long through platforms, the other ends are numbered separately, and not used as through platforms, so leaving a loco parked in the middle (where platforms change number) will not actually get in the way. So not sure why they need to be shunted somewhere rather than wait for next train to/from south. It’s not like you are running the loco around to other end.

There are times of day when units are added or split there, so already get these sort of moves of coupling to something parked in the platform. It would be same procedure.

Admittedly using 379s on diesel routes is not perfect, but a 379 coupled to a push-pull diesel loco is better than scrapping them. Basically there is excess of EMUs but overcrowding on many diesel lines in the west, so cheaper way of fixing the problem that buying whole new diesel trains, whilst scrapping good trains. Much more likely to be approved than electrification to utilise the surplus newish EMUs
 

dorsetdesiro

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Fair enough about not being sentimental on the 379s but they were a real upgrade over their predecessors on Stansted Express also NXEA then GA had mostly older stock at the time.

Sure, the FLIRTs are superior which I feel these should be moved to work Ipswich and Cambridge services (which are further than Stansted) then move the 720s elsewhere. If the owner would see sense to reduce leasing costs and for GA to keep the 379s exclusively for Stansted Express.
 

JonathanH

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then move the 720s elsewhere. If the owner would see sense to reduce leasing costs and for GA to keep the 379s exclusively for Stansted Express.
GA already have too many 720s on order, as discussed elsewhere. There is nowhere for those 720s to be sent, let alone more, so the surplus ones could easily end up in storage.

379s are not going to run Stansted Express, even if they were offered for free. Driver knowledge will have lapsed so it isn't even straightforward to bring them back.
 

Roast Veg

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To be fair to the government, nobody expected the whole business model of the railways in the Southeast, which needed vast numbers of long trains to carry commuters into London, to be suddenly impacted by Covid and then WFH. Commuter numbers are significantly down, that's the reality, and they may never return to 2019 levels. Especially with the current strikes forcing people back into WFH habits again.
Of course they will return to 2019 levels. Population growth effectively guarantees it.
 

Snow1964

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Of course they will return to 2019 levels. Population growth effectively guarantees it.
And companies have generally worked out that team discussions, on the job training, mentoring, staff training and development is virtually impossible with long term working from home, so anyone who wants to progress their career is likely to be back soon, at least in middle of the week (if not Mondays and Fridays)

You only have to look back to 1987 and the panic to reverse the early 1980s fleet cuts in commuter land to know how fast it can change. (When 100+ extra class 319+321 were added at short notice). So wouldn’t assume the spare EMUs will never be needed again.
 

Mikey C

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And companies have generally worked out that team discussions, on the job training, mentoring, staff training and development is virtually impossible with long term working from home, so anyone who wants to progress their career is likely to be back soon, at least in middle of the week (if not Mondays and Fridays)

You only have to look back to 1987 and the panic to reverse the early 1980s fleet cuts in commuter land to know how fast it can change. (When 100+ extra class 319+321 were added at short notice). So wouldn’t assume the spare EMUs will never be needed again.
But that doesn't mean 5 days a week in the office AND it doesn't require everyone to be at their desk before 9am.

If people are allowed to work flexibly, thus spreading the load across the day, then less extra rush hour capacity will be needed.

I mean the simple question is why?

What possible reason is there to bother doing that?

You have to accept that the current modus operandi of the government is that nobody is travelling and nobody wants to and that suits their run it into the ground narrative.

If you build it then will come, if you knock it down they might notice it’s not there any more. Unfortunately the government attitude is not only knock it down but also don’t let anyone else build on it. Remember the TOCs would quite like to expand and do more. The government are the ones stopping them.

But we digress. Back to 379s. If no use can be found for them on AC land (spoiler alert it can’t) then they’ll be disposed of.
But the whole point of this suggestion wasn't to expand capacity but to replace older 465/9s, seeing that the Networkers are coming up for replacement.
 

gmaguire

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I mean the simple question is why?

What possible reason is there to bother doing that?

You have to accept that the current modus operandi of the government is that nobody is travelling and nobody wants to and that suits their run it into the ground narrative.

If you build it then will come, if you knock it down they might notice it’s not there any more. Unfortunately the government attitude is not only knock it down but also don’t let anyone else build on it. Remember the TOCs would quite like to expand and do more. The government are the ones stopping them.

But we digress. Back to 379s. If no use can be found for them on AC land (spoiler alert it can’t) then they’ll be disposed of.
Southeastern is interested in replacing some or all of their Networkers because they’re becoming more expensive to maintain. An invitation to tender has been put out. It could be decided that new trains are too expensive. In that case they’d look at existing stock.

Just like turning a bank into a crypto bar, if there is no work for them in their current state, and the owner would rather not scrap them, they’ll have to be adapted to find more work.

Southeastern would be a good fit for them, as long as they can be made to work on the third rail. If they can get them into service before the Networker lease with Angel expires it could all be done relatively cheaply, and I believe the Angel networkers are the more troublesome ones. They would just renew the lease for however many 466s they need. Later on they can look at replacing the rest of the fleet, when the economy is better.

Southeastern already have a sizeable fleet of Electrostars, so we’re talking minimal staff training, the type is already cleared to work on their network and it simplifies maintenance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They could simplify things even further and eliminate the 466s, and that would be all of the Met Cam Networkers gone. In that case Networker diagrams would either be shorter, or they could run more 8s and 12s depending on what is available. Or shuffle things around to have 707s and 376s on busy 10 car trains. They are expecting more 707s (eventually), so those would fill some of the 10 car diagrams as well.
 
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Brubulus

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If the owner is willing to make them work on the third rail, it opens up the possibility of Southeastern using them for partial Networker replacement. 30 379s could probably replace the 34 465/9s, especially since a few of those are out of use at the moment. If they can be made to work with the 375s then even better.

I would have thought getting an AC only train to work on DC would be easier than the other way around. Does the AC just get stepped down and rectified to DC anyway? It's not like they'd have to be dual voltage either, just DC only for Southeastern. And I would have thought Bombardier could provide shoe beams etc.
The GN 387s are dual voltage with no real first class... exactly what Southeastern need. 377s would need shoes and first class removal. I know it makes it more complicated with the cascade getting larger, but they are all effectively subsidiaries of the DfT now so... Just send the 379s to GN and the 387s to SE...
 

LogicalTrainBo

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Relocate the 379s to replace the 319s that northern has. I'm sure commuters in the north will be happy to have modern trains, heck replace any of the older EMU in use in the north of england.
 

JonathanH

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Relocate the 379s to replace the 319s that northern has. I'm sure commuters in the north will be happy to have modern trains, heck replace any of the older EMU in use in the north of england.
319s are already being replaced by 323s.

There are previous postings which explain why 379s aren't appropriate for Northern.
The GN 387s are dual voltage with no real first class... exactly what Southeastern need.
Unfortunately the GN 387s are exactly what is needed on the GN so they aren't available.
 

JonathanH

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The 323s are best replaced with the 350/2s that are coming off lease. It's just a question of if the Dft will pay for the driver training.
No they aren't. The DfT won't pay for driver training and the 323s are the right length for the Northern operation and platforms.
 

py_megapixel

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The 323s are best replaced with the 350/2s that are coming off lease. It's just a question of if the Dft will pay for the driver training.
There's just no need for it. The 323s arguably feel a bit dated inside now, but that's largely because they've only had what appears to be a bare minimum level of work done - which should be a pretty clear sign that there's no money for anything better! Other than that, there is nothing wrong with them, and they seem to fit well into Northern's operation.
 

Brubulus

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The 350/2s could be sent to GWR so their 387s could be sent to SE if the 323s are to not be replaced. Or the 350/2s could just be made dual voltage as they are perfect for SE otherwise.
 
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