Future of Class 379

[43102EMR]

”Earth fault reset”?
That’s one one

Does anyone know why 2 units went to Worksop?

Cold storage.

I thought the move got caped?

 

[bussnapperwm]

Here's a wild out there idea - fit them with diesel engines (so become bimodes) and ship them to Chiltern to cascade the 168s to Northern

 

[WizCastro197]

Here's a wild out there idea - fit them with diesel engines (so become bimodes) and ship them to Chiltern to cascade the 168s to Northern

What benefit would replacing the 168s give anyway except spending quite a bit of money equipping the engines, when said money is perhaps needed elsewhere?

 

[bussnapperwm]

What benefit would replacing the 168s give anyway except spending quite a bit of money which is needed elsewhere?

A) standard carriage lengths on services to Brum/Oxford from Marylebone (instead of the mix of 2-4 carriage units that Chiltern run.
B) Allows the 168s to be sent to Northern to be able to see off some of the 15x stock
C) Allows for use "under the wires" if/when the Snow Hill Lines gets wired, plus use under the wires if a diversion into New Street is needed.

Alternatively they could be converted to bimode units and, still sending to Chiltern, cascade the 168s to the 165 operated routes, meaning the 165s could get sent to Great Western. Plus it could be classed as a "levelling up" project for the Midlands!

 

[zwk500]

A) standard carriage lengths on services to Brum/Oxford from Marylebone (instead of the mix of 2-4 carriage units that Chiltern run.
B) Allows the 168s to be sent to Northern to be able to see off some of the 15x stock
C) Allows for use "under the wires" if/when the Snow Hill Lines gets wired, plus use under the wires if a diversion into New Street is needed.

Alternatively they could be converted to bimode units and, still sending to Chiltern, cascade the 168s to the 165 operated routes, meaning the 165s could get sent to Great Western. Plus it could be classed as a "levelling up" project for the Midlands!

You are proposing some quite serious mechanical work for which these units were never designed, and the 379s will be life expired before wires reach the Snow Hill Lines.

If you're replacing the Chiltern fleet, either AT200-family bi-modes or the Stadler Flirts with the detachable power packs are the way to go, but money to fund that isn't easy.

 

[WizCastro197]

A) standard carriage lengths on services to Brum/Oxford from Marylebone (instead of the mix of 2-4 carriage units that Chiltern run.
B) Allows the 168s to be sent to Northern to be able to see off some of the 15x stock
C) Allows for use "under the wires" if/when the Snow Hill Lines gets wired, plus use under the wires if a diversion into New Street is needed.

Alternatively they could be converted to bimode units and, still sending to Chiltern, cascade the 168s to the 165 operated routes, meaning the 165s could get sent to Great Western. Plus it could be classed as a "levelling up" project for the Midlands!

But are all these benefits things that absolutely have to be done, or are they all placed under the pretence 'if there is money'? Chiltern also seem to have a lot more Turbos and 168s than there are number of 379s? If you are proposing 8 car runs (which I am not sure whether you are or not), then I am sure most would have to be short formed anyway?

 

[bussnapperwm]

The other idea I did have was for use as replacements for 323s at Northern to be fair

 

[WizCastro197]

The other idea I did have was for use as replacements for 323s at Northern to be fair

Don't Northern want 323s though? I believe some of WMT's are going to Northern and it doesn't seem as if their life is over yet either. This thread seems to be going round in circles, I think the end result with all propositions, is that there is either no money or it just doesn't seems realistic in the timescale of 379s life.

 

[py_megapixel]

The other idea I did have was for use as replacements for 323s at Northern to be fair

They're too long for Stoke-on-Trent, and there aren't enough of them. Besides, the 323s don't really need replacing.

The obvious thing to do in a situation with a stretched and outdated DMU fleet combined with a surplus of serviceable EMUs is electrification. This would be a much better investment (which of course means it won't happen!) than arbitrarily shuffling stock around or attempting conversion programmes which have no guarantee of success.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They're too long for Stoke-on-Trent, and there aren't enough of them. Besides, the 323s don't really need replacing.

The obvious thing to do in a situation with a stretched and outdated DMU fleet combined with a surplus of serviceable EMUs is electrification. This would be a much better investment (which of course means it won't happen!) than arbitrarily shuffling stock around or attempting conversion programmes which have no guarantee of success.

Oh yes please. (see below) If only.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's a wild out there idea - fit them with diesel engines (so become bimodes) and ship them to Chiltern to cascade the 168s to Northern

Super idea.

I wonder if anyone else has tried to fit diesel traction packs to trains that were formerly electric only, and if so what the result was?

 

[Mamorin]

The obvious thing to do in a situation with a stretched and outdated DMU fleet combined with a surplus of serviceable EMUs is electrification. This would be a much better investment (which of course means it won't happen!) than arbitrarily shuffling stock around or attempting conversion programmes which have no guarantee of success.

Platforms 1 & 2 at SOT are signalled in both directions so 379s could terminate in platform 1, go into a siding and then use platform 2 to go Northbound.

However there are not enough 379s to replace the 323s as you say.

323s will be 30 years old when they reach Northern and by then replacements may be looked at.

323 replacements will most likely by more 331s, or perhaps 350/2s.

I think the 379s will soon be scrapped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

Super idea.

I wonder if anyone else has tried to fit diesel traction packs to trains that were formerly electric only, and if so what the result was?

Those were 30+ year old 319s, 379s are only 11 years old so addition of a diesel could work.

However I can’t see bi-mode 379s ever happening.

 

[WizCastro197]

Platforms 1 & 2 at SOT are signalled in both directions so 379s could terminate in platform 1, go into a siding and then use platform 2 to go Northbound.

However there are not enough 379s to replace the 323s as you say.

323s will be 30 years old when they reach Northern and by then replacements may be looked at.

323 replacements will most likely by more 331s, or perhaps 350/2s.

I think the 379s will soon be scrapped.

I think with most TOCs, they'll start to look at the Southern way of doing things when it comes to replacements: Don't and start reducing trains lengths and hope no one notices.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think with most TOCs, they'll start to look at the Southern way of doing things when it comes to replacements: Don't and start reducing trains lengths and hope no one notices.

This also has the added bonus of meeting the DfT OPEX budgets for 23/24

 

[Bald Rick]

Those were 30+ year old 319s, 379s are only 11 years old so addition of a diesel could work.

Age is not so much an issue, as the design of the trains.

 

[jackot]

Those were 30+ year old 319s, 379s are only 11 years old so addition of a diesel could work.

Does not mean it would be easier - with more complex software systems and electrics I would imagine it would still be a challenge. Looking at the GWR 769s I think it’s best to say that no ROSCOs are going to be in a rush to put Diesel power packs on EMUs.

 

[Mamorin]

Age is not so much an issue, as the design of the trains.

Thanks for reminding me of that. However in the 319s case the issue was age… well age of the equipment. As getting modern day diesel equipment to work with 1980s DC equipment caused issues. (Or at least according to an article in a issue of Today's Railways UK from earlier this year that was the issue)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==

Looking at the GWR 769s I think it’s best to say that no ROSCOs are going to be in a rush to put Diesel power packs on EMUs.

I agree I can’t see any ROSCO wanting to put diesel equipment on off lease EMUs any time soon.

 

[Brubulus]

Here's a wild out there idea - fit them with diesel engines (so become bimodes) and ship them to Chiltern to cascade the 168s to Northern

If anyone needs bimodes, it's Northern with services such as Windermere to Manchester Airport being operated by 195s

Platforms 1 & 2 at SOT are signalled in both directions so 379s could terminate in platform 1, go into a siding and then use platform 2 to go Northbound.

However there are not enough 379s to replace the 323s as you say.

323s will be 30 years old when they reach Northern and by then replacements may be looked at.

323 replacements will most likely by more 331s, or perhaps 350/2s.

I think the 379s will soon be scrapped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2022 ==


Those were 30+ year old 319s, 379s are only 11 years old so addition of a diesel could work.

However I can’t see bi-mode 379s ever happening.

The 323s should be replaced by 350/2s given that they have the right interior for the services operated by 323s. Yes, there is slightly less of them but it is not a large difference and they are longer trains with more capacity.
A certain operator are also in need of 125mph EMUs and TPE have some that cannot reach their top speed on the WCML. (TPE 397s on LNER replacing class 91s with 379s operating TPEs scottish services)

 

[Mamorin]

The 323s should be replaced by 350/2s given that they have the right interior for the services operated by 323s. Yes, there is slightly less of them but it is not a large difference and they are longer trains with more capacity.

The current plan has Northern getting a total of 32 323, there are 34 350/2s so there are more 350/2s. However as a fleet yes there are more 323s than 350/2s.

It would not surprise me if Portorbrook were to try and give Northern all 350/2 instead of 32 323s, given that some 379s have been off lease for 11 months now and all 379s are most likely to be scrapped.

If more of the network was wired and there was money available (there is no money btw) then the 379s would have had a new home by now.

 

[43096]

The current plan has Northern getting a total of 32 323, there are 34 350/2s so there are more 350/2s. However as a fleet yes there are more 323s than 350/2s.

Northern has 17 323s currently with another 17 to transfer from West Mids, which made 34 when I was at school. And there are 37 350/2s.

This topic has been done to death on here, btw...

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Well. The original plan was that the 379's were going to go to Great Northern and the 387s from Great Northern were going to go to Southern Railways. Barring a miracle. That is not going to happen.

 

[JonathanH]

It would not surprise me if Portorbrook were to try and give Northern all 350/2 instead of 32 323s, given that some 379s have been off lease for 11 months now and all 379s are most likely to be scrapped.

No one is giving anything to anyone. The DfT are simply not going to pay for the traincrew training that introducing 350s or 379s in the North of England would entail.

34 350/2s

37

 

[Mamorin]

Thanks for correction on the number of 350/2s.

 

[py_megapixel]

Platforms 1 & 2 at SOT are signalled in both directions so 379s could terminate in platform 1, go into a siding and then use platform 2 to go Northbound.

You are correct, and indeed 6-car 323 formations do run at the weekend (though they go north from platform 1 and then use crossovers north of the station).

The question, of course, is whether there is enough line capacity to do this every hour, reliably, without impacting the rest of the service through SOT. The current weekend arrangement might well be taking advantage of the gaps left by the second hourly Avanti and/or CrossCountry services.

323s will be 30 years old when they reach Northern and by then replacements may be looked at.

I really think they should be looking at Sprinter replacement before 323 replacement. Of course, if the solution for Sprinters is electrification and EMUs (or even bimodes) then great, order enough to replace the 323s at the same time.

I think with most TOCs, they'll start to look at the Southern way of doing things when it comes to replacements: Don't and start reducing trains lengths and hope no one notices.

Northern won't be able to get away with that as easily as they run a lot of trains formed of short single units already. Good luck "reducing train lengths" on the Crewe-Manchester circuit, for example! (runs almost exclusively with single 3-car EMUs)

The 323s should be replaced by 350/2s given that they have the right interior for the services operated by 323s. Yes, there is slightly less of them but it is not a large difference and they are longer trains with more capacity.

That's exactly the kind of pointless shuffling around we don't need at the moment. The 323s are a bit dated now but generally fine, and it would no doubt be costly to bring in the 350s for very little benefit to passengers. Also, the 350s are too long for the bay platform at Stoke-on-Trent (although that could be solved by simply always running a 331 on that route). On Northern, it's the Sprinters that are the real problem.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Well, instead of using the bay at Stoke, why not run it to Stafford/Wolverhampton/Birmingham and have it call all stations?

Maybe transfer that service to London North Western at the same Time.

 

[zwk500]

Well, instead of using the bay at Stoke, why not run it to Stafford/Wolverhampton/Birmingham and have it call all stations?

Maybe transfer that service to London North Western at the same Time.

Is there enough stock to cover the extended Journey time even to Stafford?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Not as less as it could be is the new more.

Look. We really do keep running into the same problems with the 379s. Nobody wants them, or if they do want them they cannot afford them & if they can afford them there’s something going on a DfT that’s stopping them having them.

The reality is that the only chance you’ve got of getting on a 379 now is if an open access operator does something with them.

The DfT does not want them, there’s no desire to run more trains. We are dealing with [badly] managed decline. There’s no growth.


I know I sound very depressing saying this and as someone who would love to see the railways actually thrive (for many reasons) it depresses me to say it. The reality though is the 379s aren’t going to carry punters again. But if they do then I’ll be delighted.

 

[Brubulus]

Is there enough stock to cover the extended Journey time even to Stafford?

If the 350/2s are introduced, definetly enough to run it as far as Wolverhampton, especially with the fact that they have a higher top speed and would reduce journey times.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Not as less as it could be is the new more.

Look. We really do keep running into the same problems with the 379s. Nobody wants them, or if they do want them they cannot afford them & if they can afford them there’s something going on a DfT that’s stopping them having them.

The reality is that the only chance you’ve got of getting on a 379 now is if an open access operator does something with them.

The DfT does not want them, there’s no desire to run more trains. We are dealing with [badly] managed decline. There’s no growth.


I know I sound very depressing saying this and as someone who would love to see the railways actually thrive (for many reasons) it depresses me to say it. The reality though is the 379s aren’t going to carry punters again. But if they do then I’ll be delighted.

Honestly, if the 379s do get scrapped, I'll officially have lost ALL faith in UK railways FULL STOP. We finally have more than enough trains to solve capacity problems and now the DfT no longer have the resources to utilise them; time to consider relocating to a country that can actually manage their railways properly like Switzerland or Morocco.

 

[py_megapixel]

Honestly, if the 379s do get scrapped, I'll officially have lost ALL faith in UK railways FULL STOP.

You hadn't already?