Future Northern Rail

[northwichcat]

When TPE was set up as a "stand alone" service it took over

• Services run by ATN with 158s
• Services run by FNW with 158s and 175s

To be slightly pedantic Manchester-Hull had some services booked to be 156 operated and TPE had to sublease a couple of 158s off FNW and then later CT to have enough 158s for all North and South TPE services.

I think 158s only rarely made it on to the Manchester Airport-North West routes and you probably had as much chance of seeing a 150 or 156 on those routes as a 158.

 

[Anvil1984]

Also IIRC I believe the Scottish TPE services were added after the trains were ordered too adding more strain.

Weren't the 170s only brought to TPE because SWT wanted to standardise their DMU fleet into 158/159s only

 

[tbtc]

To be slightly pedantic Manchester-Hull had some services booked to be 156 operated and TPE had to sublease a couple of 158s off FNW and then later CT to have enough 158s for all North and South TPE services.

I think 158s only rarely made it on to the Manchester Airport-North West routes and you probably had as much chance of seeing a 150 or 156 on those routes as a 158.

To be even more pedantic there used to be regular Pacer use on the bi-hourly York - Sunderland - Newcastle (Hexham) trains, which were part of Northern Spirit's Transpennine operation

 

[YorkshireBear]

They don't double up many, apart from the "four coach" 170s on some Hull duties and the "six coach" 185s on the handful of services which split at Preston.

Hull wouldn't need doubling up if all 185s were four coach, but I don't know whether *all* platforms between Manchester Airport and Preston could cope with eight coaches.

I have seen them through leeds qutie a lot, usually on a liverpool scarbrough.

 

[tbtc]

Also IIRC I believe the Scottish TPE services were added after the trains were ordered too adding more strain

True. In which case an order for 70x 4 car 185s would have been much better, enough to give the class a bit more "critical mass".

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know whether *all* platforms between Manchester Airport and Preston could cope with eight coaches.

I assume when you say 'all' you mean all stations served by TPE.

I'd guess that the only ones they would have difficulty at aren't on their standard calling pattern e.g. Blackrod.

Don't the 185s have SDO?

TPE used to stop the Liverpool to Newcastle/Scarborough portion working at Irlam and at Lime Street, Warrington Ctl and Birchwood passengers were informed that they must travel in the front train only if they wished to alight at Irlam. I suppose TPE could have used Irlam as a pick-up only call to simply things.

 

[Anvil1984]

185s dont have SDO, however they have a system which locks out a whole unit. However there are certain stations they cant use that however cant remember which ones

 

[WestCoast]

185s dont have SDO, however they have a system which locks out a whole unit. However there are certain stations they cant use that however cant remember which ones

They only open the middle door of the centre carriage at Staveley and Burneside on the Windermere branch.

 

[ainsworth74]

They only open the middle door of the centre carriage at Staveley and Burneside on the Windermere branch.

Which is the middle door as the doors are (visually at least) equal distances apart from each other and from the ends of the carriages

 

[Lampshade]

Hull wouldn't need doubling up if all 185s were four coach, but I don't know whether *all* platforms between Manchester Airport and Preston could cope with eight coaches.

Only Bolton can AFAIK.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Only Bolton can AFAIK.

...and platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly.

I am not sure about Heald Green, but the platforms there easily take 6-car First TPE joint service sets (Blackpool/Windermere) with room to spare.

 

[northwichcat]

TPE originally proposed the 170s would run as doubled up but the 185s would, under normal circumstances, run as single units.

If TPE had got 60 extra centre cars it would have been possible for them to have 30 x 3car units and 30 x 5 car units if they would have fitted platforms and passenger flows better.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If TPE had got 60 extra centre cars it would have been possible for them to have 30 x 3car units and 30 x 5 car units if they would have fitted platforms and passenger flows better.

It would have enabled known high passenger loading services at certain times on the First TPE North services to have been catered for had 5-car sets been available.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Are you seriously suggesting that Virgin's Birmingham to Scotland route should be given to Arriva!?

Many people want to pay extra to travel with Virgin! It's not just for the shorter journey time, but also for the far superior First Class service.

There is a BIG difference when travelling First Class between Birmingham and Crewe (with Virgin) and Birmingham and Stoke (with Arriva). Virgin give you breakfast, or a nice sandwich (which is guaranteed to be served), or dinner (plus alcohol if you're an adult) - Arriva give you a buiscuit! (Although I give my thumbs up to Arriva for having Coca Cola instead of Pepsi .)

Please stop doing this. I based what I said on logical distribution of services and what routes are more suited to what franchises. Removing Birmingham-Preston-Scotland from the XC network was idiotic, as was giving Manchester-Preston-Scotland to TPE, that should lie with XC or the WC franchise. I do not base such decisions on whether I would get a free biscuit or not if I travelled First Class, obviously you do!

They don't double up many, apart from the "four coach" 170s on some Hull duties and the "six coach" 185s on the handful of services which split at Preston.

Hull wouldn't need doubling up if all 185s were four coach, but I don't know whether *all* platforms between Manchester Airport and Preston could cope with eight coaches.

Oxford Rd you may be able to, only on p2/4 though. Deansgate and Crescent you may have to stop dead in front of the signal, same for Chorley. Bolton could take a 12-car diagram with ease. Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland would all struggle, but I don't think they would be a million miles off being able to fit them on...

 

[tbtc]

Bolton could take a 12-car diagram with ease

...makes it such a waste that such a big town with such long platforms gets so many thirty metre Pacers etc.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

TBF they did move the stopboards closer to the footbridge during the recent refurbishment, used to be hell beofre, three-four minutes to get from platforms 3 to 4! It did have 4/5-car 220s/221s before December 2007 (when TPE took over from AXC), they would have been the longest trains to use the platforms in quite a while...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

FGW have used a Pacer at least once on long distance Paddington services starting west of Bristol, but switched to HST before it got to Bristol. .

If only the Southport to Manchester Airport trains could start with Pacers from Southport, then switch to Class 185 units from Wigan onwards

 

[Waverley125]

personally I think the current franchise is unsustainable due to a couple of different things:

1) Sheer size. It's a huge franchise with many boundaries of interoperation, which leads to delays and other knock-ons.

2) Service 'level'. There are basically 3 types of service in Northern's region-Intercity (existing TPE long-distance, Scarborough-Blackpool), Regional (Leeds-Nottingham etc.) and local (Leeds & Manchester commuter lines)

I'd look to split into a couple of different franchises, starting from the bottom

LEEDS, SHEFFIELD & MANCHESTER 'METROTRAIN', New Merseyrail

these lines running as commuter services, all stops with an emphasis on new stations & electrification, PTEs to be heavily involved.

from Leeds, stopping services on the following lines

Airedale & Wharfedale (Skipton, Ilkley, Bradford)
Harrogate (York via Harrogate)
York & Selby (York & Selby)
Pontefract (Goole)
Hallam (Sheffield via Barnsley)
Wakefield (Doncaster & Sheffield via Moorthorpe)
Huddersfield (Huddersfield via Dewsbury)
Caldervale (Bradford, Todmorden & Huddersfield via Brighouse)

Sheffield lines

Penistone (Huddersfield)
Dearne Valley (York)
Hull (Doncaster)
Lincoln (Retford)

Manchester lines

Caldervale (Blackburn via Burnley)
Ribble Valley (Clitheroe)
East Lancashire (Colne)
Preston (Preston)
Southport (Southport via Wigan)
Liverpool (St Helens & Warrington Central)
Crewe (Crewe, Manchester Airport)
Stafford (Stoke on Trent)
Buxton (Buxton)
Styal (Crewe via Airport)
Mid Cheshire (Northwich)

Merseyrail Lines

Manchester (Warrington Central, Warrington Bank Quay)
Crewe (Crewe)
Ormskirk (Preston)
Kirkby (Wigan Wallgate)
Wigan (Preston via Wigan North Western)
Chester (Chester)

Northeastern Lines

Bishop Auckland-Saltburn
Middlesbrough-Newcastle
Newcastle-Hexham
Darlington-Berwick

NORTHERN REGIONAL LINES

These services running semi fast, serving large-moderate towns as 'connecting' services, operated mainly with Turbostars, Desiros or similar

Leeds-Carlisle
Leeds-Nottingham
Leeds-Scarborough
Leeds-Hull
Leeds-Lincoln
Leeds-Cleethorpes
Sheffield-Lincoln
Sheffield-Cleethorpes
Sheffield-Hull
Sheffield-York via Pontefract
Manchester-Carlisle via Hellifield
Manchester-Chester
Manchester-Bradford
Manchester-Blackpool
Manchester-Liverpool
Manchester-Barrow
Carlisle-Barrow
Newcastle-Carlisle
Newcastle-Edinburgh (Run jointly with ScotRail)
Liverpool-Blackpool

NORTHERN INTERCITY

Long-distance intercity services, run as such with reduced stops & shorter journey times.

Newcastle-Liverpool via Leeds & Manchester
Hull-Liverpool via Leeds & Manchester
Middlesbrough & Sunderland-Manchester via Leeds
Lincoln-Liverpool via Sheffield
Scarborough-Manchester
Scarborough-Sheffield via Pontefract
Scarborough-Blackpool via Leeds
Hull-Holyhead via Leeds & Manchester

OTHER SERVICES

Manchester-Scotland Services to ICWC
Leeds-Scotland Services (via Newcastle & via Carlisle) to ICEC
Liverpool-Norwich to ICXC
Liverpool/Manchester-Holyhead to ATW

as an addendum, an example of service where all 3 operators are present, on the Leeds-Hull line

WY Metro:

SELBY, Thorpe Willoughby, Hambleton, South Milford, Micklefield, East Garforth, Garforth, Thorpe Park, Cross Gates, Killingbeck, East End Park, LEEDS (2TPH)

Northern Regio:

HULL, Hessle, Brough, Selby, Garforth, LEEDS (2TPH)

Intercity Northern:

HULL, LEEDS (1tph)

 

[northwichcat]

p
Manchester lines

Mid Cheshire (Northwich)

NORTHERN REGIONAL LINES
Manchester-Chester

Where does the second service come from? If it truncating the Manchester-Llandudno service at Chester you'll have the Welsh Assembly to fight with.

Merseyrail Lines

Manchester (Warrington Central, Warrington Bank Quay)
Crewe (Crewe)
Ormskirk (Preston)
Kirkby (Wigan Wallgate)
Wigan (Preston via Wigan North Western)
Chester (Chester)

This section makes little to no sense. Are you referring to lines out of Liverpool? If so I don't think running Liverpool-Crewe instead of Liverpool-Crewe-Birmingham will be popular. Liverpool Central-Ormskirk and Liverpool Central-Chester are part of the Merseyrail franchise which doesn't end until 2028 and why mention those two and not the other Merseyrail lines?

Hull-Liverpool via Leeds & Manchester
Scarborough-Manchester

I think there's more need for a York-Liverpool link (as present) than a Hull-Liverpool service as you're proposing.

 

[Gareth]

Mixing the more-or-less totally separate Merseyrail system with other lines is not a good idea.

However, what about splitting the stopper services so that they cover metropolitan areas? What I mean is, instead of having a stopper going from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria, have an extra one going from Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay and another one going from Bank Quay to Victoria. This way, it's clear that if you want to go from Liverpool & Manchester, you should use the faster services. I know that this would not be without complications in 2011, but perhaps after electrification, the northern hub improvements and hopefully, some four-tracking and passing places for fast trains, as well as more fast trains per hour, this may be possible.

Also, if all the long distance services are re-routed away from the CLC route, then perhaps the Merseyrail Northern Line could be extended from Hunts Cross to Warrington Central, with a Northern stopper service (perhaps under a TfGM scope, maybe even branding) could do Warrington Central to Manchester stations.

 

[WatcherZero]

Cant remember if it came up before, Jacobs study for ORR and Dft into franchise remapping published in May.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/rvfm-jacobs-franchising-march2011.pdf

Now it has the disclaimer that this is from an organisational and strategic viewpoint and the effects on the individual routes arent studied in detail. It does study rolling stock, depots, historic wage deals (from previous franchise mergers), track usage and management. It makes the following reccomendations.

* Merge C2C into Greater Anglia.
* Merge Thameslink and Southern with retention of residual GN services.
* Split London Midland, with West Coast / West Midlands electric services merged with Inter City West Coast; and West Midlands diesel routes mapped to Chiltern.
* Split Transpennine, with TP-North services merged with CrossCountry, TP-South services merged with East Midlands Trains, and TP-West Coast services merged with Northern Rail. Potentially transfer Manchester-Scotland (WCML route) services to West Coast following north west electrification.
* The combined TP-North / CrossCountry franchise could beneficially be merged with Inter City East Coast, providing some synergy in Yorkshire and on the northern half of the ECML.
* If appropriate in the context of alignment with PTE geographies, improved market focus, and closer vertical integration with Network Rail, the expanded Northern Trains franchise can be split into separate NE and NW parts to produce separate West Yorkshire- and Greater Manchester-focussed TOCs.

 

[northwichcat]

* Split Transpennine, with TP-North services merged with CrossCountry, TP-South services merged with East Midlands Trains, and TP-West Coast services merged with Northern Rail. Potentially transfer Manchester-Scotland (WCML route) services to West Coast following north west electrification.
* The combined TP-North / CrossCountry franchise could beneficially be merged with Inter City East Coast, providing some synergy in Yorkshire and on the northern half of the ECML.

Interesting.

People have suggested about EMT taking over South TPE or TPE taking over Liverpool-Norwich but the rolling stock has been an answered. If the same company is running two almost identical West-East routes then you'd expect the same on board experience.

Maybe if the North West TPE routes go to Northern and the South TPE goes to EMT then the solution is EMT takes on 185s for Liverpool-Norwich and the EMT refurbished 158s go on the North West TPE services that go to Northern. A 185 wouldn't be the most popular choice on Liverpool-Norwich but it could include a minor refurbishment of increasing seat padding along with new seat covers (to replace the First coloured purple.)

The North TPE/East Coast/CrossCountry franchise could result in lots of different things, so careful consideration would be needed there.

and West Midlands diesel routes mapped to Chiltern.

So would Birmingham-Edinburgh be a Chiltern route or would it become electric?

 

[tbtc]

Interesting.

People have suggested about EMT taking over South TPE or TPE taking over Liverpool-Norwich but the rolling stock has been an answered. If the same company is running two almost identical West-East routes then you'd expect the same on board experience

Plenty examples where thats not the case.

For example you can do London - Worcester by three coach DMU or eight coach HST - both run by the one TOC - as long as the facilities are marked in the timetable (e.g. which services have a trolley).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cant remember if it came up before, Jacobs study for ORR and Dft into franchise remapping published in May.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/rvfm-jacobs-franchising-march2011.pdf

Now it has the disclaimer that this is from an organisational and strategic viewpoint and the effects on the individual routes arent studied in detail. It does study rolling stock, depots, historic wage deals (from previous franchise mergers), track usage and management. It makes the following reccomendations.

* Merge C2C into Greater Anglia.
* Merge Thameslink and Southern with retention of residual GN services.
* Split London Midland, with West Coast / West Midlands electric services merged with Inter City West Coast; and West Midlands diesel routes mapped to Chiltern.
* Split Transpennine, with TP-North services merged with CrossCountry, TP-South services merged with East Midlands Trains, and TP-West Coast services merged with Northern Rail. Potentially transfer Manchester-Scotland (WCML route) services to West Coast following north west electrification.
* The combined TP-North / CrossCountry franchise could beneficially be merged with Inter City East Coast, providing some synergy in Yorkshire and on the northern half of the ECML.
* If appropriate in the context of alignment with PTE geographies, improved market focus, and closer vertical integration with Network Rail, the expanded Northern Trains franchise can be split into separate NE and NW parts to produce separate West Yorkshire- and Greater Manchester-focussed TOCs.

There's a lot of sense there.

My "ideal" for TOC-reshaping really depends on what routes are being electrified, but I think that these are good suggestions.

 

[northwichcat]

Plenty examples where thats not the case.

For example you can do London - Worcester by three coach DMU or eight coach HST - both run by the one TOC - as long as the facilities are marked in the timetable (e.g. which services have a trolley).

I'd said you'd expect the same facilities not that you would get the same. Would you really expect if the same operator ran Liverpool-Norwich and Manchester Airport-Cleethorphes for one to have FC and one to have standard class only?

 

[tbtc]

I'd said you'd expect the same facilities not that you would get the same. Would you really expect if the same operator ran Liverpool-Norwich and Manchester Airport-Cleethorphes for one to have FC and one to have standard class only?

I wouldn't be *that* shocked. When ATN used to run services you had some with First Class (e.g. 158s on transpennine routes) and some without, meaning trains from Leeds to Huddersfield were all run by the same TOC but not all had First Class.

See also the ATW Holyhead - Cardiff trains, where one a day has First Class. Plenty of examples of different service levels from the one TOC. As I said, as long as its clearly marked in the timetable you'd expect passengers to be savvy enough to work it out.

 

[swt_passenger]

My "ideal" for TOC-reshaping really depends on what routes are being electrified, but I think that these are good suggestions.

The difficulty I have with that proposal above ^^^ is that it seems to simply divide the current LM area into electric and diesel sections on the basis of the current electrified areas - but what happens following any future infill electrification, such as Bromsgrove?

Do you end up with one TOC gradually shrinking as it gets left with all the disconnected 'DMU islands', and the other getting bigger and bigger, as it bites off what would probably by then be the more financially viable routes - remembering the 'sparks effect'?

BTW there is a whole page devoted to this report in the current Today's Railway UK. Doesn't really say how relevant it is to the DfT's future plans though...

 

[tbtc]

The difficulty I have with that proposal above ^^^ is that it seems to simply divide the current LM area into electric and diesel sections on the basis of the current electrified areas - but what happens following any future infill electrification, such as Bromsgrove?

Do you end up with one TOC gradually shrinking as it gets left with all the disconnected 'DMU islands', and the other getting bigger and bigger, as it bites off what would probably by then be the more financially viable routes - remembering the 'sparks effect'?

Thats a good point.

I'm thinking of the Reading - Gatwick service as an example. Logically you'd put that service with SWT (Reading, Wokingham, Ash, Guildford etc), or maybe Southern at a push (Guildford, Redhill, Gatwick etc). But, because its not electrified it lives with FGW who have a DMU depot at Reading. It wouldn't be worth SWT/Southern maintaining a small fleet of DMUs there for this service (the only DMU services they run are in their *core* areas).

You could argue that Bidston - Wrexham sits better with Merseyrail, but it wouldn't be worth them maintaining a couple of 150s for one route - more sense to have it run by ATW (who can run the trains as part of their larger DMU fleet). Same with Ellesmere Port - Hellsby (run by Northern rather than Merseyrail, because its a diesel route).

To take another example, I think that when the Lancashire Triangle is completed, it makes sense for Manchester Airport - Edinburgh/Glasgow to move to the WCML franchise (which will also run long distance EMUs up the WCML). But, at the moment I can see why it lives with TPE and their other diesel services.

 

[IanXC]

The difficulty I have with that proposal above ^^^ is that it seems to simply divide the current LM area into electric and diesel sections on the basis of the current electrified areas - but what happens following any future infill electrification, such as Bromsgrove?

I guess the choices are all of LM diesel services, or just the Snow Hill diesel services. I'd be inclined to think it would be better to have interface at places like Worcester than to have both LM and Chiltern on the Cross City Line?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

NORTHERN INTERCITY

Long-distance intercity services, run as such with reduced stops & shorter journey times.

Newcastle-Liverpool via Leeds & Manchester
Hull-Liverpool via Leeds & Manchester
Middlesbrough & Sunderland-Manchester via Leeds
Lincoln-Liverpool via Sheffield
Scarborough-Manchester
Scarborough-Sheffield via Pontefract
Scarborough-Blackpool via Leeds
Hull-Holyhead via Leeds & Manchester

I am not sure when these service patterns that you propose take into account of the Ordsall Chord project, so I am not sure when you state "Manchester" in this list whether you refer to both Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria, using the Ordsall Chord where applicable, or services that run to and from Manchester Airport.

There have been doubts expressed in threads previously on this forum concerning any Lincoln - Sheffield - Manchester - Liverpool services.

The Hull - Leeds - Manchester - Holyhead service is a service that would offer a coast to coast option, but I would like this to be the subject of some considered debate amongst our more operationally minded forum members. I will open a new thread to sound this option out.

 

[sulli_os]

I like the idea of PTE based local operators - Leeds have invested in some quality commuter trains via METRO - I'd like to see similar done by SYPTE in South Yorkshire.

Furthermore, I'd like the local operators to be able to shape the franchise specification to suit their local area. So if SYPTE (say) wanted new trains i.e. not pacers, they could make that clear in the franchise spec, understanding that fairs may increase slightly for that improvement.

Would be much better than some bod in London who doesn't know what the North looks like having the final say on such matters.