Future Northern Rail

[bluenoxid]

As far as I am aware, the intention is to merge apart from the Scotland to Manchester services. Personally, I think that Northern are the best operators of the South TPE service. They gel with it very well at various points and offer the opportunity to really develop the service.

 

[CJ]

I don’t see anything wrong with TPE. They are fine as they are at the moment and I like travelling on their Class 185s.

I do agree with others about the Manchester - Scotland service being with West Coast Franchise. At first when I heard the news that TPE would be getting the route, I was delighted because it would give Edinburgh and Glasgow a connection to MIA, but nowadays having to travel on a Class 185 to Edinburgh/Glasgow would be horrendous. It’s bad enough that the Manchester Airport - Blackpool North service is jam packed everyday (from my experience).

The North West Electrification should allow some Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh trains to go via Manchester in the future (at least I hope so).

If TPE routes do go to Northern (or their successor) then they should at least keep the TPE brand and have it as a sub-brand (like Arriva Trains Northern did with their TPE services).

 

[Gareth]

I'd actually merge the northern semi-fasts with TPE, such as Liverpool-Blackpool. The Manchester-Scotland services would be part of Virgin's franchise (with Liverpool-Scotland services added) and, ideally, I'd like to have more local stopper services that fit more closely with metropolitan areas and perhaps with some PTE involvement; similar to the London Overground.

 

[Anvil1984]

As far as I am aware, the intention is to merge apart from the Scotland to Manchester services. Personally, I think that Northern are the best operators of the South TPE service. They gel with it very well at various points and offer the opportunity to really develop the service.

With South TPE my issue is not TPE at all but the EMT Liverpool - Norwichs as you know whenever there is engineering work between Chesterfield - Sheffield or something hits the fan EMT seem to bus replace everything between Sheffield - Liverpool or force passengers onto TPE. Changing TPE south to tie in with EMT Liverpool - Norwich would give EMT bases at Lime Street and Manchester / Sheffield and help co-ordinate services better. Also would help with Barton Branch (use a EMT 153 and crew not a Northern one). Theres pros and cons either way

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With South TPE my issue is not TPE at all but the EMT Liverpool - Norwichs as you know whenever there is engineering work between Chesterfield - Sheffield or something hits the fan EMT seem to bus replace everything between Sheffield - Liverpool or force passengers onto TPE.

The point that you make about the EMT Liverpool to Norwich service above is further proof of what I reported in posting # 12 on this thread, which expressed the views of a daily business traveller regarding EMT service provision on this particular route.

 

[TUC]

I would scrap TPE, incorperate all bar Scottish trains in new Northern. Virgin from West Mids and TPE from Manchester back on XC. New stock similar to 172s to replace 142s.

And so create an even bigger monopoly in the north ...

 

[YorkshireBear]

And so create an even bigger monopoly in the north ...

Yeah but its not bad in this case, its not like northern have ridculously high fares....
You cant say dont have a monopoly when northern control the only trains on about so many routes, bradford-leeds (excluding the rare EC) harrogate-leeds etc etc

for mainlines ie london birmingham i think a monopoly is bad but for this situation not at all. It will allow a much better timetable with connections.

 

[Gareth]

They're regional monopolies anyway on most routes, if we don't include changing trains. It's more or less similar to the old ITV network really.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem with mixing regional and local services in the same franchise (with both FNW and ATN) was that they did unit swaps and finished up sometimes putting 142s and 144s on long distance services. ATW do similar now with 150s on long distance and 175 on short distance.

Maybe go for two North of England franchises:
- Northern Express: North TPE, South TPE, Manchester Airport to North West, Manchester Airport to Liverpool, Blackpool to York, Sheffield to East Yorks, Nottingham to Leeds and Leeds to Morecambe. Maybe add Liverpool-Norwich?(158*, 170, 185 fleet)
- Northern Local: All other Northern routes (142*, 144*, 150*, 153, 155, 156 + EMU fleet)

* Units to be replaced during the franchise as part of the new franchise agreement.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The problem with mixing regional and local services in the same franchise (with both FNW and ATN) was that they did unit swaps and finished up sometimes putting 142s and 144s on long distance services. ATW do similar now with 150s on long distance and 175 on short distance.

Maybe go for two North of England franchises:
- Northern Express: North TPE, South TPE, Manchester Airport to North West, Manchester Airport to Liverpool, Blackpool to York, Sheffield to East Yorks, Nottingham to Leeds and Leeds to Morecambe. Maybe add Liverpool-Norwich?(158*, 170, 185 fleet)
- Northern Local: All other Northern routes (142*, 144*, 150*, 153, 155, 156 + EMU fleet)

* Units to be replaced during the franchise as part of the new franchise agreement.

You could run them as the same franchise but not couldnt you.... just different branding its not like FGW ever put a 142 on paddington penzance.

 

[northwichcat]

You could run them as the same franchise but not couldnt you.... just different branding its not like FGW ever put a 142 on paddington penzance.

FGW have used a Pacer at least once on long distance Paddington services starting west of Bristol, but switched to HST before it got to Bristol. I don't know the exact point it got switched over.

FNW used 142s on North Wales Coast services and ATN used 144s on TPE services.

 

[Gareth]

You could run them as the same franchise but not couldnt you....

There's not reason why you couldn't, though most TOCs would rather not, I'd reckon, as not to dillute their own name.

 

[YorkshireBear]

FGW have used a Pacer at least once on long distance Paddington services starting west of Bristol, but switched to HST before it got to Bristol. I don't know the exact point it got switched over.

FNW used 142s on North Wales Coast services and ATN used 144s on TPE services.

ooo fair enough then.
well this is why i am undecided. This is the reason i dont want them to merge and it is the only reason, but its a big reason.

 

[sulli_os]

EMT Norwich - Liverpool is getting better though. There may be slightly fewer seats per carriage but I can assure you that there is more leg room (I'm 6ft3 so notice that sort of thing) and you do sometimes get 4-coach trains now.

In my mind, if you cant create a separate micro-franchise for the South TP (with maybe a couple of other Shef services) then put it with EMT.

 

[northwichcat]

EMT Norwich - Liverpool is getting better though. There may be slightly fewer seats per carriage but I can assure you that there is more leg room (I'm 6ft3 so notice that sort of thing) and you do sometimes get 4-coach trains now.

I don't think people have ever argued that there is less leg room following refurbishment. The usual comments are less tables and less luggage space.

 

[Anvil1984]

FGW have used a Pacer at least once on long distance Paddington services starting west of Bristol, but switched to HST before it got to Bristol. I don't know the exact point it got switched over.

FNW used 142s on North Wales Coast services and ATN used 144s on TPE services.

But this was usually out of desperation remember the 175s were very unreliable at the start of their lives and set swaps like this only occur at times of disruption.

If I was at York this week during the fatality at Tollerton preventing TPE services from getting into and out of York from the North and misplaced crew I would love to juggle around and use any spare Northern units on there.Northern have a 158 which sits in the platforms for about an hour which is better than nothing as a one off. Also last time ATN weren't big on first class, they did have it but orIginally it was just a supplement. Now TPE have that and have brought in a lot of advances they have a lot of incentive not to put sub par stock on the routes by not earning penalties for doing so. It is posaible just look at all the other TOCs I mentioned earlier they cope

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Until cross-Pennine electrification actually happens, all the platitudes about obtaining the best passenger and freight services by a new franchaisee is meaningless. It is needed as a fundemental part of the regeneration of Northern England.

There seems to be some sort of downtrodden acceptance that cascaded stock of any shape, size or variety is good enough for services in the North of England. Electrification is something for other regions and when all their needs are fully met, it MAY be considered.

A Queen of France once said "Let them eat cake!!" It appears that someone must have said "Let them have Pacers" in relation to the North of England.

Heavens above, it is a wonder that we don't still have gas lamps and mantles to light up the cobbled streets........:roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

Heavens above, it is a wonder that we don't still have gas lamps and mantles to light up the cobbled streets.

I sometimes wonder if some people down south actually think we still do!

 

[TUC]

Any option that gets the north east and Cumbria services some real love and attention wold get my vote. Northern seem to be almost exclusively focused on their PTE services (and Tyne and Wear don't really cout in this regard since there's only the one route). I think that a better arrangement would be to put the Manchester/West Yorks services into one frachise and to split the Cumbria, north east and Lincs/Notts services between the east coast, cross-country and TPE franchises. In a strange way I think they would get more attention as the routes would be feeders for these companies wider routes and so there would be an incentive to invest in them..

 

[northwichcat]

I think that a better arrangement would be to put the Manchester/West Yorks services into one frachise and to split the Cumbria, north east and Lincs/Notts services between the east coast, cross-country and TPE franchises. In a strange way I think they would get more attention as the routes would be feeders for these companies wider routes and so there would be an incentive to invest in them..

Creating a West Yorks and Greater Manchester franchise wouldn't work. West Yorks has already taken the FNW 158s, the extra 158s allocated to Northern for the Liverpool to Manchester Airport/Wigan services and the 158 centre cars that were allocated for Blackpool services, leaving the west side with 150s and 156s instead.

 

[TUC]

Creating a West Yorks and Greater Manchester franchise wouldn't work. West Yorks has already taken the FNW 158s, the extra 158s allocated to Northern for the Liverpool to Manchester Airport/Wigan services and the 158 centre cars that were allocated for Blackpool services, leaving the west side with 150s and 156s instead.

That's assumes that there's wouldn't be a rearrangement of stock wit any new franchises. Besides which, decisions on franchise shapes need to be taken on what both gives te best results for passengers and work financially. Making decision n the basis of where stock has historically been allocaed would be the tail wagging the dog.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Any option that gets the north east and Cumbria services some real love and attention wold get my vote. Northern seem to be almost exclusively focused on their PTE services (and Tyne and Wear don't really cout in this regard since there's only the one route). I think that a better arrangement would be to put the Manchester/West Yorks services into one frachise and to split the Cumbria, north east and Lincs/Notts services between the east coast, cross-country and TPE franchises. In a strange way I think they would get more attention as the routes would be feeders for these companies wider routes and so there would be an incentive to invest in them..

Precisely my idea - except the additional Lincs/Notts services. I think that'd work just fine!

 

[route:oxford]

Heavens above, it is a wonder that we don't still have gas lamps and mantles to light up the cobbled streets........:roll:

Oddly enough, if you ever visit London, you'll find that some streets are lit by gas lamps and mantles.

 

[All Line Rover]

I would scrap TPE, incorperate all bar Scottish trains in new Northern. Virgin from West Mids and TPE from Manchester back on XC. New stock similar to 172s to replace 142s.

Are you seriously suggesting that Virgin's Birmingham to Scotland route should be given to Arriva!?

Many people want to pay extra to travel with Virgin! It's not just for the shorter journey time, but also for the far superior First Class service.

There is a BIG difference when travelling First Class between Birmingham and Crewe (with Virgin) and Birmingham and Stoke (with Arriva). Virgin give you breakfast, or a nice sandwich (which is guaranteed to be served), or dinner (plus alcohol if you're an adult) - Arriva give you a buiscuit! (Although I give my thumbs up to Arriva for having Coca Cola instead of Pepsi .)

 

[tbtc]

The problem with mixing regional and local services in the same franchise (with both FNW and ATN) was that they did unit swaps and finished up sometimes putting 142s and 144s on long distance services. ATW do similar now with 150s on long distance and 175 on short distance

Before, if there were no long distance units (e.g. 158s) then the operator (e.g. ATN) had to put a "local" train out instead (such as the Pacer you refer to).

Now, if there's no long distance units (e.g. 170/185s) then TPE just cancel the train.

I don't think anyone would claim a Pacer were suitable for a longer distance route like Transpennine, but if it were substituted only when there was no other stock available then are you saying you'd rather the train were just cancelled?

As for changing boundaries etc, a lot depends on electrification plans. For example, the planned electrification of Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh services means that they are better "bedfellows" with the West Coast services currently provided by Virgin.

I think that TPE and Northern will be merged back (with parts sliced off to EMT*/ Virgin etc), which is no comment on TPE/ First/ 185s, but realistically a TOC with only 60 trains covering an area from Glasgow to Cleethorpes/ Newcastle to Liverpool is never going to be very efficient to run (depot sizes etc). However there are then questions to ask about whether TPE North could fit with XC and thats a whole can of worms...

...but, in general, it makes sense to have one operator running local and "longer" services, encourages co-ordination, keeps bureaucracy simpler... look at the muddle in Lincolnshire where the re-jugged ECML services (East Coast) don't connect with the local trains (EMT) - compare that to FGW's ability to co-ordinate the former Wessex services with Paddington HSTs.

* - the Cleethorpes service has nothing to do with the rest of Transpennine - giving it to EMT/ Northern is a no-brainer.

 

[TUC]

There is a BIG difference when travelling First Class between Birmingham and Crewe (with Virgin) and Birmingham and Stoke (with Arriva). Virgin give you breakfast, or a nice sandwich (which is guaranteed to be served), or dinner (plus alcohol if you're an adult) - Arriva give you a buiscuit!

Only when one of the crew has remembe to buy the packet of bicuits on the way into work!

 

[krisk]

I don't do the animosity towards Northern, they do the best they can with what they have got which was at best a mixed bag of left over stock with a huge franchise area.

Its an unenviable task but they have got increases in pass numbers year on year which the DFT didnt expect or predict.

The north west has always been neglected for years, flipping loco hauled stock and its passengers onto a 2 car 150 was never gonna work. And right now there is no sign of extra capacity any time soon.

My heart goes out to the bosses of Northern and more so to their guards who must get no end of grief... why is my train still full.... why are there no more carriages etc

The investment in new stock should have been made years ago by the last government instead of messing about

 

[TUC]

I don't do the animosity towards Northern, they do the best they can with what they have got which was at best a mixed bag of left over stock with a huge franchise area.

Its an unenviable task but they have got increases in pass numbers year on year which the DFT didnt expect or predict.

The north west has always been neglected for years, flipping loco hauled stock and its passengers onto a 2 car 150 was never gonna work. And right now there is no sign of extra capacity any time soon.

My heart goes out to the bosses of Northern and more so to their guards who must get no end of grief... why is my train still full.... why are there no more carriages etc

The investment in new stock should have been made years ago by the last government instead of messing about

And they dump the worst of their stock in the north east where (especially because of Tyne and Wear's disinterest), there's no PTE to nag them.

Did they inherit a rolling stock problem? Yes. Do they treat all parts of their region equally with the stock they have? No.

 

[Batman]

The Robbin Hood line should become part of the Northern network so that through trains can be run between Notingham and Shefield via Mansfield and Worksop.

 

[northwichcat]

Before, if there were no long distance units (e.g. 158s) then the operator (e.g. ATN) had to put a "local" train out instead (such as the Pacer you refer to).

Now, if there's no long distance units (e.g. 170/185s) then TPE just cancel the train.

Well for a start the units weren't as intensively used under ATN so there was more likely to be a spare. Also ATN suffered from staff shortages/staff refusing to work overtime etc. so units finished up out of position meaning that, for instance, the 158 that should have been in Newcastle was in Leeds as it was terminated short on it's previous run so to run the next southbound service they had to find something available in the North East.

Unless you reinstate BR you're always going to have issues with cancellations.

One such example:

the Cleethorpes service has nothing to do with the rest of Transpennine - giving it to EMT/ Northern is a no-brainer.

TPE do not have stock in Cleethorphes. However, on the other hand EMT running Liverpool-Norwich when the Hope Valley Line was closed caused nightmares in the North West as services between on the very busy Stockport to Liverpool were cancelled for a number of consecutive days simply because the Nottingham based trains and crews were only on one side of the closure.