Future Northern Rail

[Masbroughlad]

Been thinking about a wishlist for future Northern...

Would it cover the same area?
Would there be bits added?
Would some services be lost?
What would new rolling stock be?
When the Pacers go, what would we have instead?
Will Northern always just be locals/inter-urbans?
Should Northern locals be split and added to Intercity franchises?

Lots of food for thought!

I think I'd like to see local connecting services added to intercity operators and the rest (ie urban services) assigned to PTE type organisations.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Been thinking about a wishlist for future Northern...

Would it cover the same area?
Would there be bits added?
Would some services be lost?
What would new rolling stock be?
When the Pacers go, what would we have instead?
Will Northern always just be locals/inter-urbans?
Should Northern locals be split and added to Intercity franchises?

Lots of food for thought!

I think I'd like to see local connecting services added to intercity operators and the rest (ie urban services) assigned to PTE type organisations.

I would scrap TPE, incorperate all bar Scottish trains in new Northern. Virgin from West Mids and TPE from Manchester back on XC. New stock similar to 172s to replace 142s.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would tend to agree about the core TPE into Northern, however I would probably have Cleethorpes - Manchester, Sheffield - Manchester, Nottingham - Leeds, Cleethorpes / Lincoln - Sheffield and Cleethorpes - Barton into EMT

Put Manchester - Scotland into Virgin.

Some have said about grouping with the IC operator, but which one for example would Newcastle - Carlisle be east coast or West Coast etc.

 

[dickdarlington]

I would also consider breaking up the TPE and Northern franchises.
Proper TPE (Scarb/Newc/Boro etc) to XC. Scotland trips to either WC or Scotrail.

The current commuter trips I'd break up into regional sectors: North East to East Cost (Domestic) for example. It doesn't sit right with the rest of the northern routes. I'd also give the Sheff based services to EMT. Then focus a more efficient and focused service on the Yorkshire and Lancashire routes which remain.

As for rolling stock. As long as the pacers go, I couldn't give a monkeys. Longer trains though would be a must into Leeds and Manc.

 

[185]

Yep, couldn't agree more.

TPE should end. It was a good idea, given to the wrong vultures.

Manchester Scotland should be ICWC franchise.

The most of the ret should be Northern.

Liverpool Newcastle should be XC.

Manchester Cleethorpes should be EMT.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have no problems with TPE at all, I especially like their Airport Advance tickets which no other operator provides

Northern Leeds-Nottingham is pretty good

 

[Nym]

Spesifically with some of the routes...

Finish TPE...

TPE South: EMT
TPE North: Sub-Brand of Northern
TPE NW: Sub-Brand of Northern
TPE Scotland: Intercity West Coast, with eye to ordering 8 car 390s, or extending Manchester Airport's platforms.

I'd keep northern as one massive franchise but the internals would look somwhat diferent.

Commuter routes would be passed over to the relevant PTEs to control stock and timetables, and order their own stock if so desired.

ie. If Northern offers pacers / 150s that will cost £xx to run, the PTE can provide 170s/172s at the same price via a ROSCO or themselves to Northern to run the service.

For example, in GMPTE, a lot of services run wholy within or just outside the PTE area, these could be improved by the PTE and have it as public knowlage.

Northern Express would come into exitence, and would take over the entire 185 fleet.

Northern would loose TPE's 170s and a handful of 158s to EMT to run the Cleethorpes - Airport service. And if Peak Rail ever happens, the Nottingham - Manchester slows while the fasts are diverted via Derby and Matlock, with the slows now going via New Mills.

Northern Express would operate pretty much the TPE Network as it is, with near exclusive use of the 185 and 158 fleet, and would be branded as such, in a smilar way to 'Central Citylink' and the 185s and 158s would be interchangeable on routes, with a high quality refurbishment of the 158 fleet to fit proper 1st class seating. Electric stock for 'Northern Express' would be either cascaded 319s with a big refurbishment or new build 380 or 379 style stock, 3 cars long with corridor connections.
Diesels
Manchester Airport - Newcastle
Manchester Airport - Middlesborough
Liverpool Lime Street - Scarbrough
Liverpool Lime Street - Hull - (Bridlington)
Blackpool North - York
Manchester Airport - Barrow / Windermere

Electric
Manchester Airport - Liverpool Lime Street
Manchester Airport - Blackpool North
Manchester Victoria - Liverpool Lime Street (Express only)
Crewe - Preston via Earlstown & Newton-le-Willows (Although this could be London Midland)

At the minute I can't think of any other express routes in the world of northernland I havn't passed on to EMT.

But it would use only 158s and 185s for diesel sections.

Oh, and I'd be throwing a lot more wires up around the North for northern to use.

Alternativly, enlarge TPE to take over some of these other routes, either way they should remain branded sepreatly as to have an 'intercity operator around the north'

 

[The Snap]

I have no problems with TPE at all

Me neither! I fail to see why people are calling for it's break up?

I agree that the Manchester to Scotland services should be Virgin WC, but other than that, what's wrong with TPE?

Breaking it up would just be expensive - rebranding all the 185s and refitting their interiors with new colour schemes...EMT livery on a 185? No thanks! If it isn’t broke, don't fix it!

(Unless someone can point what is seriously wrong with TPE that I have missed??)

 

[sprinterguy]

Some have said about grouping with the IC operator, but which one for example would Newcastle - Carlisle be east coast or West Coast etc.

Newcastle to Carlisle would be with East Coast as the units for that service are allocated to and maintained at Heaton. It would be no different to the Regional Railways North East/North West arrangement.

I believe that Transpennine Express should be kept as a separate entity, as it works well being treated as a long distance regional operator rather than as an annexe of a local train operators activities, but only for as long as the franchise boundaries are maintained as they are. Except for the Manchester to Scotland route, which should be incorporated into the West Coast franchise as a top priority.

However, were electrification of Transpennine North to be on the cards, then in the run up to such a scheme I would hand over Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes to EMT, and incorporate Transpennine North into the Northern franchise. EMT would gain additional 158s, either from ATW or Scotrail through an arrangement of cascades, to operate the Manchester to Cleethorpes service.

IMO Northern works very well as a combined single entity, and the only resplit of the franchise I would support would be if there was an aggressive redefining of the franchise boundaries to reduce the number of separate franchises, which would see the North West local services incorporated into the West Coast franchise and the North East local services incorporated into the East Coast franchise.

The franchises would then be arranged thus: Scotrail, West Coast, East Coast, East Midlands/MML, Crosscountry, Wales, Great Western (absorbing Chiltern), Anglia, London Overground, Crossrail (Could be part of the Anglia franchise, or joint operated by Anglia/Great Western), Thameslink (Could be part of the Southern franchise) and the three Southern region third rail TOCs. Of course, in this model TPE would logically have to either remain as a separate entity or be combined into the XC franchise.

Strategic electrification schemes around Britain would allow all of Northerns' Pacers to be replaced by cascaded Sprinters or directly by EMUs, so new rolling stock wouldn't be required until the replacement of the Sprinter classes occured. The electrification schemes required to do this would be Cardiff Valleys, Transpennine North, Uckfield & Marshlink and all of the Scottish Central Belt, extended north to cover Perth/Dundee to Aberdeen. MML electrification would be useful as well to allow the majority of the West & South Yorkshire local services to go over to electric operation through a combination of branches of that scheme and the Transpennine scheme.

New diesel rolling stock to replace the Sprinters on the remaining unelectrified routes when that time comes would be in the form of whatever the 2025-2030 equivalent of the class 172 is.

 

[Failed Unit]

Me neither! I fail to see why people are calling for it's break up?

I agree that the Manchester to Scotland services should be Virgin WC, but other than that, what's wrong with TPE?

Breaking it up would just be expensive - rebranding all the 185s and refitting their interiors with new colour schemes...EMT livery on a 185? No thanks! If it isn’t broke, don't fix it!

(Unless someone can point what is seriously wrong with TPE that I have missed??)

TPE is a well ran franchise, but it causes duplication of depots etc. As the majority of it is exclusively on Northern areas it would just mean that Heaton depot for example would not be in the money go round.

 

[SuperOwl86]

I have been reading this forum for a couple of weeks now thought I would make a post now.

Maybe its just me but I dont see why you would give the TPE South to EMT, would that not be an odd ball route, Would have to run a load of service's short at Sheffield to get the units back to Notttingham, unless I am missing a depot somewhere.

I would have thought be more effective just to hand it over to Northern.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I speak for a family friend who is a regular business traveller who uses the EMT Liverpool to Norwich service, with whom I was generally discussing railway matters. I mentioned during our conversation that suggestion on the forum seemed to favour the South TPE Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes service that serves Sheffield, Doncaster and Scunthorpe (currently with 3-car Class 185 units) being transferred to EMT.

When he had finished laughing, he said that the way that the current standard of EMT rolling stock seat availability provision on the Liverpool to Norwich use had deteriorated over recent years, he was sure that the Sheffield and Doncaster passengers on the existing South TPE serevice would voice much disquiet if EMT were handed this route. He stressed that the views of people who actually use EMT should be given more credence than any hypothetical arguments raised by "Armchair Critics"....to use his exact words.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It would use the current TPE 170s / 185s though, not current EMT 158s!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would use the current TPE 170s / 185s though, not current EMT 158s!

Matt, I think that the point that he was making to me was the comparison on the number of cars per train, in terms of passenger seating totals now, to the seating numbers per train that was common a few years ago.

It is not the stock, just the number of seats per train, in which he is adamant has seen a decrease.

 

[465fan]

Scrap TPE? Jesus christ, No!

TPE provides a very reliable, very "safe" service for punters all across the region.

Giving their routes to Scotland to XC would not be a good idea, nor Virgin. Although I don't agree that TPE should have it. What I would like to see is new coaches for TPE, in respect of four or five car units.

As for the Northern Rail bit, I think there can be room for tweaking here.

Extend 1tp2h from Scunthorpe (current destination of "locals") to Grimsby Town
Extend EMT services from Lincoln to Cleethorpes
EMT to operate Barton on Humber
Trains via Brigg to run to Nottingham, via Retford / Worksop / Mansfield by EMT

Newacastle - Carlisle to remain with Northern, operated out of Heaton as it is. Chathill services to extend to Dunbar at least, operated by Electric units (cascaded 319s). Extend a majority of Newcastle - Carlisle services to Whitehaven / Workington / Barrow, and encourage an all 156 op with full refurbishment.

 

[emoaconr]

I think the whole Northern/TPE argument is probably down to ideology.

There have been two options in the North which have operated:
1) North West franchise and North East franchise, re First North Western vs Arriva Trains Northern with Transpennine Intercity services split between them

2) All-North local franchise and Transpennine Inter-City franchise; this in theory should be the better option giving more choice, but it has ruined Northern's reputation simply because of the nature of the services it provides and the rolling stock allocated to "local" services

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't think i'd split TPE from northern they are different services.... I would order some 172's and take over york blackpool (maybe extend to scabrough not sure if it needs it? peak times maybe) get rid of all 170's to NXEA to provide capcity, all 158's from york blackpool to northern trade them for 156's or 150's with companies like FGW who have 150's runnig quite a long way.

I would obviously electrify as much as possible of the network. Especially TPE. I would start an electric service from leeds calling garforth york thirsk northallerton darlington durham (chester le street??) newcastle morpeth alnmouth berwick(could terminate here) dunbar endinburgh. To allow some speeding up of cross country services by either missing out darlington/durham or allowing them to miss out leeds. Maybe start the electric service from sheffield or nottingham if possible and take all XC trains the faster route. I suppose if you put the service into XC franchise it could be very useful in terms of through ticketing with one change. Or even divert reading to terminate in leeds.

Northern i would concentrate on creating more capcity and newer more reliable stock. The current service pattern can be altered when everything else is right. Maybe forward planning and start pushing for infrastructure upgrades to coincide with stock replacement. woodhead, Extend northern hub to include more than manchester as well.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sorry, I don't follow. Take 158s off York-Blackpool North and do what with them?

Also, the 'Reading' XC runs terminate at Newcastle already

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry, I don't follow. Take 158s off York-Blackpool North and do what with them?

Also, the 'Reading' XC runs terminate at Newcastle already

i was typing very quick towards end of lunch hour... i will edit it as i get time.

I meant to leeds. Use them as extra capcity. Or send them to FGW and get 150's back.

Edited it a little.

 

[Anvil1984]

I don't get this logic that TPE and Northern should be kept apart based on the fact that one runs express routes and the other local ones. Using that logic we would need to separate parts of the East Midlands, London Midland, Scotrail, First Great Western, NXEA, FCC and Southern franchises up as they all have the equivalents or greater differences with actual Intercity and regional services mixed together as opposed to the regional express TPE like to call Intercity and Northern local services.

I agree with the idea of putting TPE North and Cumbria back in to Northern and TPE South with EMT alongside the seemingly planned split of TPE Scotland back to West Coast. Some other local services can also be swapped about Barton branch and Hope Valley spring to mind.

It would save on some pointless ECS moves we see now (Liverpool to Nottingham at top of my head) and gives you a broader range of staff and stock to work with. For example I'm a conductor who works services between York and Manchester Victoria but only via one route, colleagues from a different TOC but same home station sign the same two places by a multitude of ways yet I stilk sign one they don't however don't sign traction and get paid by someone else so sorry cant help.

It may also help the passenger especially in times of inconvienience, for example I passed back on a service ran by TOC A which was 20 mins late so on my diagram where I have a booked connection of 6 mins between getting off TOC As train and getting on my TOCs train (where I am only diagrammed assist so it can go without me) it doesn't look good. This also effects passengers as when this happens it adds 90 mins to the journey as they have to go via different route like I do. If they were ran by the same company you would expect the second train to be held as it is the last of the night from station s to station y

 

[YorkshireBear]

I don't get this logic that TPE and Northern should be kept apart based on the fact that one runs express routes and the other local ones. Using that logic we would need to separate parts of the East Midlands, London Midland, Scotrail, First Great Western, NXEA, FCC and Southern franchises up as they all have the equivalents or greater differences with actual Intercity and regional services mixed together as opposed to the regional express TPE like to call Intercity and Northern local services.

I agree with the idea of putting TPE North and Cumbria back in to Northern and TPE South with EMT alongside the seemingly planned split of TPE Scotland back to West Coast. Some other local services can also be swapped about Barton branch and Hope Valley spring to mind.

It would save on some pointless ECS moves we see now (Liverpool to Nottingham at top of my head) and gives you a broader range of staff and stock to work with. For example I'm a conductor who works services between York and Manchester Victoria but only via one route, colleagues from a different TOC but same home station sign the same two places by a multitude of ways yet I stilk sign one they don't however don't sign traction and get paid by someone else so sorry cant help.

It may also help the passenger especially in times of inconvienience, for example I passed back on a service ran by TOC A which was 20 mins late so on my diagram where I have a booked connection of 6 mins between getting off TOC As train and getting on my TOCs train (where I am only diagrammed assist so it can go without me) it doesn't look good. This also effects passengers as when this happens it adds 90 mins to the journey as they have to go via different route like I do. If they were ran by the same company you would expect the second train to be held as it is the last of the night from station s to station y

When you put it like that i agree. Now i think it could up northerns image by running it helping it secure investment for stock. Also TPE and northern if worked together could achieve more on the TPE routes.
My only concern is 158's going back over to TPE i think it should be new order 172's running new services with 158's on semi fast/londistance routes elsewhere.

 

[Anvil1984]

People on here have stated that TPE provide an adequate Leeds to Newcastle service this sadly isn't true as TPE prune the services back to terminate at York from Manchester after about 4pm with big gaps after this (to provide extra capacity on the core network).

Saying that you would run a Sheffield to Scotland EMU is all well and good but will we see the level of investment for OHLE and new EMU stock in next 10- 15 years I doubt it.

Merging them together even short term make sense for when Northern Hub comes along as no doubt services will have to be swapped and changed about again bettwe to do it at start or wnd of franchise than in between.

New stock will probably be needs either way and yes I would (given funds) order more 172 but for EMT to give them a uniform local fleet with their stock going to Northern, I'd let London Midland have their add on as they have an option for more with the 170s going to Northern for ex TPE routes and maybe whoever gets Anglia for same reason as EMT (small DMU fleet so easy to make uniform)

Of course I prefer electrification but as I say that's not going to happen in the next franchise period except for whats already been announced

 

[YorkshireBear]

People on here have stated that TPE provide an adequate Leeds to Newcastle service this sadly isn't true as TPE prune the services back to terminate at York from Manchester after about 4pm with big gaps after this (to provide extra capacity on the core network).

Saying that you would run a Sheffield to Scotland EMU is all well and good but will we see the level of investment for OHLE and new EMU stock in next 10- 15 years I doubt it.

Merging them together even short term make sense for when Northern Hub comes along as no doubt services will have to be swapped and changed about again bettwe to do it at start or wnd of franchise than in between.

New stock will probably be needs either way and yes I would (given funds) order more 172 but for EMT to give them a uniform local fleet with their stock going to Northern, I'd let London Midland have their add on as they have an option for more with the 170s going to Northern for ex TPE routes and maybe whoever gets Anglia for same reason as EMT (small DMU fleet so easy to make uniform)

Of course I prefer electrification but as I say that's not going to happen in the next franchise period except for whats already been announced

The Leeds scotland EMU was based on TPE electrification, with sheffield being a big if to electrifcation mean to state this sorry.

Mean to be a stopping service so cascaded stock would do.

I like the idea of uniforming fleets cos surely it ultimately means more capacity as less have to be spare at once, and relability goes up to due to standardisation of parts and maintenance practices etc etc

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We all know the terms of "no growth" expectations that has so blighted the current Northern franchaise when it was granted, but any new franchaise will not be hidebound by this proviso. Just a comment that I thought was worth making amongst all the current speculation.

 

[Anvil1984]

Correct, I dont think we will be hit by the limitations of the current franchise where Northern have have to beg, steal or borrow their way through but I still don't expect we will get spanking new stock, rather the traditional cast offs from others but with a refurb

 

[YorkshireBear]

Correct, I dont think we will be hit by the limitations of the current franchise where Northern have have to beg, steal or borrow their way through but I still don't expect we will get spanking new stock, rather the traditional cast offs from others but with a refurb

I think many on here will say even if it is second hand stock it is still stock. For me that goes for pretty much anything my main concern is capacity before quality.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I personally think Northern should be split in two;

1) The North-East and Cumbria (Heaton depot)
2) Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds etc

This then means that Newcastle - Middlesbrough/Carlisle/Morpeth and Middlesbrough - Whitby/Saltburn/Darlington/Bishop Auckland can all be under a smaller company, as it's quite a way from any other Northern regional routes!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I personally think Northern should be split in two;

1) The North-East and Cumbria (Heaton depot)
2) Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds etc

This then means that Newcastle - Middlesbrough/Carlisle/Morpeth and Middlesbrough - Whitby/Saltburn/Darlington/Bishop Auckland can all be under a smaller company, as it's quite a way from any other Northern regional routes!

I thought that the current thinking in railway terms was to create a larger, not a smaller size franchaise for the North of England to obtain a better return of stock availability and maintenance units.

 

[WatcherZero]

Northerns currently the largest franchise by daily services operated but not by route miles, passenger numbers or revenue I dont think. TPE is one of the smaller franchises, high revenue and route miles low number of services operated. Merging them makes a stronger more independent from subsidy whole. Those saying split it on each side of the Pennines clearly have no idea that then your still left with two companies operating services across each others areas.

I was in favour previously of giving the Scotland services to XC to bulk up that franchise and because they were a fairly close fit with its large roaming geographical scope. However I now believe that the best option is giving them to Virgin WC as it simplifies planning and operation and for all intents and purposes it is a WCML route. London Midland would continue to operate the Midlands route as a competitive alternative along with ECML.

Obviously however theres going to be a fundamental recast around 2026 when WCML loses its primary north-south intercity status and becomes essentially one long North-South commuter franchise with entirley different economics and services. Whatever reform happens another major reform will be needed in a decades time.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would personally merge what is left of the regional franchises. ie recreate regional railways without Anglia, Wales and Scotland. Anglia fits well with the IC however Lincolnshire doesn't fit well with anything. That would include the former CT bits of XC and leave XC with the ex-IC bits.

We have to much ECS because of the franchises, or services which are never going to carry passengers.