Future Metrolink Expansion

[spargazer]

Well everything is OK until it gets very near to its terminus, I could end up being sued if I name them but as landlords go they are the ultimate nightmare.

 

[northwichcat]

It never occurred to me, excepting street running sections, that a Metrolink set and a diesel powered heavy rail vehicle couldn't share paths provided there was an overhead power source for the latter. I know the two networks are now completely isolated but what were to happen if hypothetically a Pacer were to make the run on the isolated section between Victoria and Bury?

The M5000s don't meet the crash regulations for heavy rail so can't be used on the same tracks as the heavy rail passenger and freight going through Hale. A vehicle cleared for street running is unlikely to be cleared to run on the same track as this: http://www.midcheshirerail.org.uk/uploads/Ashley 17.4.11 60010 004.jpg or this: http://www.nwrail.org.uk/gm151214-66546-skelton.jpg

Another problem is AC electrification of Chester-Stockport is being considered, so DC to Hale would conflict with that. TfGM have looked at the option of dual-voltage tram-trains being used on all Metrolink services to Altrincham which would eliminate the single track sections through Navigation Road, presumably that means Timperley-Altrincham would be switched back to AC (as it was pre-conversion.)

 

[WatcherZero]

Despite the high ranking given to it in the electrification report I don't think electrification of that line will even be on the horizon for at least a decade.

 

[edwin_m]

Another problem is AC electrification of Chester-Stockport is being considered, so DC to Hale would conflict with that. TfGM have looked at the option of dual-voltage tram-trains being used on all Metrolink services to Altrincham which would eliminate the single track sections through Navigation Road, presumably that means Timperley-Altrincham would be switched back to AC (as it was pre-conversion.)

Any short term solution would most likely keep 750V on the Navigation Road section, because a 25kV feeder is a large and expensive thing and not worth providing for a couple of miles of OLE. Even if there is a suitable grid supply nearby, which there probably isn't.

However any new equipment would be designed for easy conversion to 25kV should the through route be electrified. This is the solution adopted on the Rotherham tram-train route.

The M5000s don't meet the crash regulations for heavy rail so can't be used on the same tracks as the heavy rail passenger and freight going through Hale.

It would be possible if TfGM can demonstrate that they have reduced the likelihood of collision between the two sufficiently to compensate for the increased consequences if it did happen. General concensus is that this woudl be achievable by fitting TPWS to all signals and adjusting speeds and overlaps so a SPAD on its own can't result in a collision. This would apparently be acceptable in principle even with a vehicle that doesn't meet the latest Euro-standard for tram-trains.

 

[Greybeard33]

It would be possible if TfGM can demonstrate that they have reduced the likelihood of collision between the two sufficiently to compensate for the increased consequences if it did happen. General concensus is that this woudl be achievable by fitting TPWS to all signals and adjusting speeds and overlaps so a SPAD on its own can't result in a collision. This would apparently be acceptable in principle even with a vehicle that doesn't meet the latest Euro-standard for tram-trains.

A drawback to this approach is that the long signal overlaps would increase the headway required between a tram and a following or crossing heavy rail train, so limiting line capacity. This would be a particular issue for conflicting movements over the flat junction at Deansgate Lane, where there are speed restrictions of 15mph westbound and 20mph eastbound round the tight curve to Skelton Junction. Considering the line is regularly used by 400m long sluggish freight trains, I think TfGM would struggle to operate the trams reliably at the 6 minute headway currently achieved through the Navigation Road single line section.

A further issue is that there are three low brick arch overbridges between Altrincham and Hale. These would probably have to be raised/replaced, or the trackbed lowered, to enable OHL installation - a high cost for a short extension.

 

[snowball]

Progress on the Trafford Centre metrolink seems to have ground to a halt, the silence is deafening. No start date is being given so I assume that it is a problem with the local landowners; and we can guess which one it is. Usually, if it takes so long, the transport undertaking gives up and walks away.

I can't imagine much will happen on the ground until the TWA is granted, but things could start happening quite quickly afterwards.

The public inquiry into the TWAO closed in December. A ministerial decision is awaited.

Surveyors have been observed in action.

The suggestion that TfGM might give up and walk away is in my opinion ridiculous. The scheme is at far too advanced a stage for any such possibility.

 

[edwin_m]

The public inquiry into the TWAO closed in December. A ministerial decision is awaited.

Surveyors have been observed in action.

The suggestion that TfGM might give up and walk away is in my opinion ridiculous. The scheme is at far too advanced a stage for any such possibility.

As I work for one of the companies involved, I do know something of what is happening on this project. However it is still the case that nothing significant will happen on the ground until the TWA order is granted.

 

[northwichcat]

Any short term solution would most likely keep 750V on the Navigation Road section, because a 25kV feeder is a large and expensive thing and not worth providing for a couple of miles of OLE. Even if there is a suitable grid supply nearby, which there probably isn't.

However any new equipment would be designed for easy conversion to 25kV should the through route be electrified. This is the solution adopted on the Rotherham tram-train route.

TfGM were pushing for Mid-Cheshire electrification after they declared tram-trains beyond Altrincham was a less viable option of improving journey times than 'alternative heavy rail solutions.' Note that until the Sheffield tram-train trial has been undertaken TfGM won't even implement their preferred tram-train option (Marple) so any other lines getting tram-trains probably won't be for 10 years or more by which time Network Rail may have started on electrifying more local routes out of Manchester.

Despite the high ranking given to it in the electrification report I don't think electrification of that line will even be on the horizon for at least a decade.

I agree that there probably won't be any EMUs on the line until CP7 or later. However, tram-trains are unlikely to arrive in Altrincham any quicker.

 

[edwin_m]

TfGM were pushing for Mid-Cheshire electrification after they declared tram-trains beyond Altrincham was a less viable option of improving journey times than 'alternative heavy rail solutions.' Note that until the Sheffield tram-train trial has been undertaken TfGM won't even implement their preferred tram-train option (Marple) so any other lines getting tram-trains probably won't be for 10 years or more by which time Network Rail may have started on electrifying more local routes out of Manchester.



I agree that there probably won't be any EMUs on the line until CP7 or later. However, tram-trains are unlikely to arrive in Altrincham any quicker.

That may well be so, but it still doesn't mean that there would be a tiny island of 25kV around Altrincham under any circumstances.

 

[spargazer]

The public inquiry into the TWAO closed in December. A ministerial decision is awaited.

Surveyors have been observed in action.

The suggestion that TfGM might give up and walk away is in my opinion ridiculous. The scheme is at far too advanced a stage for any such possibility.

The big question is "do Peel Holdings really want this scheme?" I am not sure what they want.

 

[snowball]

The big question is "do Peel Holdings really want this scheme?" I am not sure what they want.

I thin that's now rather a side issue, it isn't going to stop it being built.

 

[northwichcat]

The big question is "do Peel Holdings really want this scheme?" I am not sure what they want.

Peel Holdings sold the Trafford Centre a few years ago. It's now owned by intu and all marketing now refers to it being the intu Trafford Centre.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The big question is "do Peel Holdings really want this scheme?" I am not sure what they want.

Are you referring to the Peel Holdings interests in the possibility of an extension to Port Salford?

 

[WatcherZero]

Peel Holdings sold the Trafford Centre a few years ago. It's now owned by intu and all marketing now refers to it being the intu Trafford Centre.

Not quite that simple, they exhanged it for 25% stake in Intu, they are now Intu's largest shareholder.

 

[spargazer]

I thin that's now rather a side issue, it isn't going to stop it being built.

it is

 

[edwin_m]

it is

Source?

If Peel has motive, means and opportunity to stop this scheme then I'm sure TfGM will be very interested in knowing about it, as a good deal of public money will have been wasted.

 

[snowball]

The website of the recent public inquiry is here should anyone want to check what Peel was planning to say to it.

http://trafford-park.persona-pi.com

 

[daodao]

The website of the recent public inquiry is here should anyone want to check what Peel was planning to say to it.

http://trafford-park.persona-pi.com

Thank you for the link. Peel support the Metrolink extension in principle - after all it would bring more visitors to the intu centre without extra congestion and the need for more parking spaces - but have specific concerns about the details. Until these are addressed to Peel's satisfaction, progress will be delayed.

 

[spargazer]

That sounds good, will it go up to Barton Dock (city air port and the proposed amazon depot?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As this is about metrolink extensions TfGM have wishes to extend to Hale and Ashley but NR own that line. If the airport line were extended to Mobberly TfGM could then go to Hale, The idea of binliners and stone trains crawling past Terminal 2 appeals to me

 

[edwin_m]

That sounds good, will it go up to Barton Dock (city air port and the proposed amazon depot?)

The current extension proposal only goes to Trafford Centre. There is a feasibility study for a further extension to Port Salford, and I believe the new bridge over the Ship Canal includes provision for a Metrolink line.

 

[spargazer]

A better investment would be to divert it to Urmston and close three railway stations, Urmston, Chassen Rd and Flixton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As this is about metrolink extensions TfGM have wishes to extend to Hale and Ashley but NR own that line. If the airport line were extended to Mobberly TfGM could then go to Hale, The idea of binliners and stone trains crawling past Terminal 2 appeals to me

Look at the cutting that lies between Altrincham and Hale and the properties that fringe either side of it and there is no real option of widening to run even one extra track in that section.

I am sure that the stone trains will be taking their usual route for the foreseeable future.

 

[spargazer]

Manchester Airport-Mobberley is through green belt and is down for Cap7 or Cap8

 

[edwin_m]

Look at the cutting that lies between Altrincham and Hale and the properties that fringe either side of it and there is no real option of widening to run even one extra track in that section.

I am sure that the stone trains will be taking their usual route for the foreseeable future.

I think the suggestion is that the Airport branch would extend to meet the Mid-Cheshire line and all its trains including freight would use this route, with Metrolink extended from Altrincham to the new junction to provide interchange. However I don't think this would work for the freight, much of which runs to and from the Hope Valley Line so would have to take a much more roundabout route.

It would also be possible to extend Metrolink to Hale using tram-train operation and sharing the two existing tracks with the Mid-Cheshire line. This would probably need a bay platform at Hale but like the option above wouldn't need any extra tracks between there and Altrincham.

 

[Altfish]

Manchester Airport-Mobberley is through green belt and is down for Cap7 or Cap8

Do you have any plans for this line?

 

[daodao]

I think the suggestion is that the Airport branch would extend to meet the Mid-Cheshire line and all its trains including freight would use this route, with Metrolink extended from Altrincham to the new junction to provide interchange. However I don't think this would work for the freight, much of which runs to and from the Hope Valley Line so would have to take a much more roundabout route.

It would also be possible to extend Metrolink to Hale using tram-train operation and sharing the two existing tracks with the Mid-Cheshire line. This would probably need a bay platform at Hale but like the option above wouldn't need any extra tracks between there and Altrincham.

There no point in extending Metrolink beyond Altrincham into rural Cheshire as there isn't the population to support high frequency light rail. Hale (only 1 mile beyond Altrincham, but within Trafford) is very affluent and can't even support an hourly daytime bus service (it is subsidised and hardly used) in addition to the hourly train. In addition, Hale station is extremely cramped and has no capacity for terminating trains. The existing tram fleet is not suitable for tram-train operation. The line (unlike most routes) still has heavy freight use, and all alternative routes for the freight have been closed.

 

[charley_17/7]

There no point in extending Metrolink beyond Altrincham into rural Cheshire as there isn't the population to support high frequency light rail. Hale (only 1 mile beyond Altrincham, but within Trafford) is very affluent and can't even support an hourly daytime bus service (it is subsidised and hardly used) in addition to the hourly train. In addition, Hale station is extremely cramped and has no capacity for terminating trains. The existing tram fleet is not suitable for tram-train operation. The line (unlike most routes) still has heavy freight use, and all alternative routes for the freight have been closed.

Some might say if there is demand to build a road, masquerading as a motorway, then perhaps there might be demand for a rail solution.

Who is to say that those affluent people might be 'kiss and ride', or even walk the short distance between the stations?

I'd say, having signed the route as traincrew, and suffered congestion as a motorist, there would be demand at least far as Knutsford, serving a P&R for the M6, but that ship has sailed with (re)construction of the A556.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A better investment would be to divert it to Urmston and close three railway stations, Urmston, Chassen Rd and Flixton.

Are you in any way dissatisfied with the heavy rail service from these three stations, that currently offers a fast route into Manchester Piccadilly, Warrington Central and Liverpool Lime Street railway stations?

 

[northwichcat]

Hale (only 1 mile beyond Altrincham, but within Trafford) is very affluent and can't even support an hourly daytime bus service (it is subsidised and hardly used) in addition to the hourly train.

You obviously don't know much about local buses in Trafford. Hale gets the following services to/from Altrincham:
14 half-hourly. First bus to Altrincham 09:05, last bus from Altrincham 14:10
21 roughly hourly. First bus to Altrincham 09:02, last bus from Altrincham 14:40
18 hourly. First bus to Altrincham 05:30, last bus from Altrincham 23:15
88 half-hourly. First bus to Altrincham 06:00, last bus from Altrincham 19:20
283 every 35-45 minutes. First bus to Altrincham 15:42, last bus from Altrincham 18:35
285 two early morning circular journeys only.

There no point in extending Metrolink beyond Altrincham into rural Cheshire as there isn't the population to support high frequency light rail.

It's not just population but demand. No-one lives at Radbrooke Hall or Knutsford Academy but those 2 combined result in around 300 people per day commuting from Trafford to Knutsford. If only population was considered then City of London would require less public transport than Hale!

 

[spargazer]

Are you in any way dissatisfied with the heavy rail service from these three stations, that currently offers a fast route into Manchester Piccadilly, Warrington Central and Liverpool Lime Street railway stations?

Closing those three stations would make the CLC route fast plus plenty of frieght paths, the money saved will make the trams scheme more feasible' the stopping trains spend a lot of time in the glazebrook loop, and I have stood inside a pacer for nearly 15 mins there, stoppers and express do not seem to work at all well together on that line