Future Metrolink Expansion

[radamfi]

Bus deregulation is here to stay outside London. Metrolink was never originally envisaged as a street tramway and was merely intended to have a short city centre street section as building an underground link was unaffordable and technically challenging. The street-running sections are very slow and it is likely that they are a drag on the performance of the system. Metrolink stops are difficult to site because of the size and requirements for a 4car high platform stop, and therefore they are further apart than might be desirable.

Greater Manchester will be getting devolved transport powers once it has its elected mayor. The Buses Bill also effectively gives local authorities the right to regulate its buses if they desire.

Metrolink started out being a light-rapid transit system but with the Eccles, Ashton and Airport lines it now has a lot of street running. Are they slower than other street running systems?

You can see the distance between stops here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1358782&postcount=3

Some stops are less than 500 metres apart, standard for bus spacing in most European countries.

 

[edwin_m]

In the unlikely event that Oxford Road was ever converted to tramway then I suspect it would be an independent low-floor route rather than high-floor Metrolink. There is no capacity to feed more trams into the existing city centre routes so Oxford Road trams would have to have an independent terminus, perhaps by taking the existing bus route along Portland Street to Piccadilly or crossing Metrolink at St Peters Square with platforms at right angles and continuing to terminate somewhere in Salford.

However I have seen no indication that TfGM is considering anything of the sort.

 

[Greybeard33]

Forum members may not all be aware of TfGM's Bus Priority Package for the Oxford Road corridor:

Oxford Road has traffic flows of more than 20,000 vehicles on a typical weekday and is one of the busiest public transport routes in Europe. It has very high bus flows, but is also very well used by pedestrians and cyclists.

A key component of the Cross City Bus package is a bus, hackney carriage (taxi) and cycle only section on Oxford Road between Hathersage Road and Grosvenor Street. These elements would be within the existing carriageway and include widening the footways and introducing segregated cycle lanes on the carriageway.

Complementary traffic management/capacity measures will be introduced on the parallel Upper Brook Street corridor to help manage traffic flow, allowing some displacement to be accommodated and also assist in the provision of servicing and access.

http://www.tfgm.com/buses/crosscitybus/Pages/routes.aspx

A video flythrough of the scheme can be viewed at http://www.tfgm.com/buspriority/Pages/website/routes-oxford-road.html and detailed plans are at http://www.tfgm.com/buspriority/Pages/website/routes-oxford-road-plans.html. Work has already started and is scheduled for completion by the end of 2016.

Additionally, future bus re-regulation will enable TfGM to reduce capacity in the corridor to better match demand and to get rid of the oldest, worst polluting, vehicles currently operated by the likes of Magic Bus.

IMO these measures will achieve most of the benefits claimed for a tram line at much lower cost and with much less disruption, with the further advantage of preserving direct services from central Manchester to the current range of destinations in the southern suburbs.

 

[nerd]

Bus deregulation is here to stay outside London. Metrolink was never originally envisaged as a street tramway and was merely intended to have a short city centre street section as building an underground link was unaffordable and technically challenging. The street-running sections are very slow and it is likely that they are a drag on the performance of the system. Metrolink stops are difficult to site because of the size and requirements for a 4car high platform stop, and therefore they are further apart than might be desirable.

The city centre street running sections on Metrolink are almost entirely along reserved trambahn alignments. They have very little effect on average speeds in service across the system as a whole. Indeed those lines that run segregated outside of the city centre - Altrincham, Bury, South Manchester - operate at an average speed in service of around 25 kph - which is the same as that for the Paris Metro. By comparison the Tube has an average speed in service of around 33 kph. Travellers tend vastly to overestimate the speed of underground services.

Moreover, the decision to run at street level through the city centre is in no way second-best; indeed the contrary is true. The case in point being the Metrolink line through Oldham, which in its rail days ran through a tunnel under the town centre (and so continued in Metrolink Phase 3a); but in Phase 3b has been realigned to run at street level in mixed traffic along Union Street. It would have been much easier, and cheaper, to have inserted a low-level Oldham town centre stop along the original rail route; but the alternative street level alignment - even though around 6 minutes slower, due to the insertion of extra stops - has resulted in a major increase in patronage. Interestingly (for me at least) this includes a continued increase in travellers from north of Oldham commuting through the town centre and on into Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Moreover, the decision to run at street level through the city centre is in no way second-best; indeed the contrary is true. The case in point being the Metrolink line through Oldham, which in its rail days run through a tunnel under the town centre

Not really under it, but round the side of it.

I agree though that street running makes the system very visible.

 

[nerd]

Not really under it, but round the side of it.

I agree though that street running makes the system very visible.

the new line runs around 200m north of the old one; a low level town centre stop would have been around 500m from the Civic Centre, and nowhere in town centre would have been more than 800m from a stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my view, it was a big mistake building the Ashton line with such wide spacing that the bus service needs to be retained. That is a massive duplication of service. But there was probably no choice because of the deregulated bus network. In the future, that won't be an issue and if the Ashton line was built in 10 years time you would probably build the stops closer and cancel the bus service. In London, where buses are not deregulated, bus services were curtailed and cancelled as a result of tram building.

not really radamfi - bus use and tram use mainly serve different markets. The recent expansion of Metrolink has had very little impact on overall levels of bus use in Greater Manchester; ovewhelmingly, people who now are regular tram commuters would otherwise have used a private car or train.

Which confirms the points made by a number of posters; the demand along the Oxford Road corridor is predominantly for bus and bike travel, and most current users are unlikely to see a new tram as meeting their needs as well as an enhanced bus and bike lane package would do.

 

[radamfi]

not really radamfi - bus use and tram use mainly serve different markets. The recent expansion of Metrolink has had very little impact on overall levels of bus use in Greater Manchester; ovewhelmingly, people who now are regular tram commuters would otherwise have used a private car or train.

If you are thinking in British terms that would be right. Trams have been marketed as an up-market form of transport and great effort has been made to differentiate the two modes. You don't get such a division in mainland Europe and buses and trams are more equal in status. Trams are used for the major corridors with buses used to connect with trams.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The new line runs around 200m north of the old one; a low level town centre stop would have been around 500m from the Civic Centre, and nowhere in town centre would have been more than 800m from a stop.

I did tentatively raise the matter of distances in relation to Metrolink tram stops earlier in the thread, but compared with the average distances between bus stops, that figure of 800m that you state above is not one that would even be dared to be cited at any public meeting that was convened to extol the future line expansion virtues of the Manchester Metrolink system.

I am well aware that Manchester has many highly trained athletes to whom that figure would be regarded as naught but a comfortable stroll, but there are also those suffering from "fast-food syndrome" who would regard an attempt to walk such a distance akin to some punishment in the unfortunate parts of "Paradise Lost"..:roll:

 

[ivanhoe]

I was in Bury recently. The amount of traffic that goes east west through Bury is quite significant. I wonder if Metrolink will always be Manchester based because it would be great to see Bolton, Bury Rochdale linked together with decent transport options. It could also bring some much needed regeneration in parts of Bolton, Bury and Rochdale.

 

[nerd]

I did tentatively raise the matter of distances in relation to Metrolink tram stops earlier in the thread, but compared with the average distances between bus stops, that figure of 800m that you state above is not one that would even be dared to be cited at any public meeting that was convened to extol the future line expansion virtues of the Manchester Metrolink system.

I am well aware that Manchester has many highly trained athletes to whom that figure would be regarded as naught but a comfortable stroll, but there are also those suffering from "fast-food syndrome" who would regard an attempt to walk such a distance akin to some punishment in the unfortunate parts of "Paradise Lost"..:roll:

800m is quite commonly applied as 'walking distance' for the purpose of transport planning - as in 'total population within walking distance of a tram stop'. There are a number of studies into how far commuters (in particular) will regard as a reasonable regular walk across a town centre - either from a transport node, or from a long-stay car park, and various numbers result; but it is usual for regular walking much further than 800m to be exceptional. The standard Metrolink locality streetmaps in each new stop, plot circles at intervals of 200m, 400m, 600m and 800m.

In residential suburbs, people will walk a bit further for a tram stop or train station - though not generally for a bus stop.

 

[miami]

800m is quite commonly applied as 'walking distance' for the purpose of transport planning

Yet the mediacity spur was built to save about 300m of walking.

 

[nerd]

Yet the mediacity spur was built to save about 300m of walking.

actually 500m from Mediacity to Harbour City

- and more than 800m from Harbour City to the far end of Mediacity.

Whereas, had a low level station been built under Oldham on the original line, it would have been some 300m from Oldham Market Place, and 500m from the Civic Centre and Oldham College. 800m would have been the distance to the furthest extremity of the central business district, not to the centre of town.

Which just illustrates the general point; travellers generally prefer transport systems that penetrate into the centre of town on the surface with multiple stops; any sort of tunnelled or elevated solution will always be second best -whichever side of the centre its station happens to be located at.

 

[Altfish]

Yet the mediacity spur was built to save about 300m of walking.

No, it was built to help secure the BBC in Salford

 

[Busaholic]

No, it was built to help secure the BBC in Salford

Dead right.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

800m is quite commonly applied as 'walking distance' for the purpose of transport planning - as in 'total population within walking distance of a tram stop'.

That was most probably the summation of the group decision thoughts of fit young men in a quango and as usually the case, especially so often expressed at NICE, naught to do with normal travelling populace at large....:roll:

 

[randyrippley]

if station spacing is 800 yards, then the maximum walk is only 400 yards.....

more interestingly, would not Oxford Rd be a good location to reintroduce trolley buses? Or even guided trolley buses?

 

[edwin_m]

the new line runs around 200m north of the old one; a low level town centre stop would have been around 500m from the Civic Centre, and nowhere in town centre would have been more than 800m from a stop.

However, and crucially, the tram stops would have been on the wrong side of the bypass. Think how Mumps station and its temporary replacement tramstop felt isolated from the town when they were accessed through a B&Q car park and a dismal subway or a long footbridge. The new Mumps tramstop is only 100m from the old site but that move makes all the difference.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

if station spacing is 800 yards, then the maximum walk is only 400 yards.....

About time that I put the First in Mathematics that I gained some fifty years ago at Manchester University in 1966 to the test. Of course, if you live on the direct line area of the line route, then what you say would most certainly apply, but let us then have the start point of the walk at 800 yards to the west or east of the route and the walk then remains at 800 yards.

Apologies for using a somewhat simplistic methodology to express my view.

 

[Greybeard33]

That was most probably the summation of the group decision thoughts of fit young men in a quango and as usually the case, especially so often expressed at NICE, naught to do with normal travelling populace at large....:roll:

I am male and regard myself as reasonably fit, but I am above State Pension age. The nearest Metrolink stop to my house is 2400m away, which takes me about 25 minutes at a brisk walk. The nearest bus stop is only 350m walk, with a half-hourly service to the Metrolink stop (free after 09:30 with my ENTCS pass). The bus journey, including the walk to the stop, takes at least 15 minutes, but traffic congestion often causes delays. I almost always choose to walk rather than take the bus, since I consider it healthier. Even in adverse weather, one can get just as drenched on a short walk as on a longer one.

I accept that a minority of people, of all ages and genders, have reduced mobility and can find even a short walk challenging. However, I think that many people considerably younger than myself are, quite frankly, just plain lazy when it comes to walking any distance. With the availability of buggies, wheeled luggage, shopping trolleys and rucksacks, the supposed need to carry heavy loads by hand is not really a valid excuse for many journeys.

A wider spacing between bus stops would undoubtedly speed up journeys and, in the longer term, I think the increased walking distances could help raise fitness levels and reduce obesity, so improving the overall health of the population.

 

[Busaholic]

I am male and regard myself as reasonably fit, but I am above State Pension age. The nearest Metrolink stop to my house is 2400m away, which takes me about 25 minutes at a brisk walk. The nearest bus stop is only 350m walk, with a half-hourly service to the Metrolink stop (free after 09:30 with my ENTCS pass). The bus journey, including the walk to the stop, takes at least 15 minutes, but traffic congestion often causes delays. I almost always choose to walk rather than take the bus, since I consider it healthier. Even in adverse weather, one can get just as drenched on a short walk as on a longer one.

I accept that a minority of people, of all ages and genders, have reduced mobility and can find even a short walk challenging. However, I think that many people considerably younger than myself are, quite frankly, just plain lazy when it comes to walking any distance. With the availability of buggies, wheeled luggage, shopping trolleys and rucksacks, the supposed need to carry heavy loads by hand is not really a valid excuse for many journeys.

A wider spacing between bus stops would undoubtedly speed up journeys and, in the longer term, I think the increased walking distances could help raise fitness levels and reduce obesity, so improving the overall health of the population.

I wouldn't advocate wider spacing between bus stops, in the main. What is needed is speedier operation i.e. fare collection. It is amazing how quickly a bus can load and be on its way in London as opposed to where I now live (Cornwall). I would never dream of hopping on a bus in Penzance for the half a mile or so journey to the Bus Station, regardless of the weather and the fact that I too qualify for free travel. The buses seem to take forever to load, though I admit passholders are treated somewhat quicker now in theory than a year or two back.

 

[radamfi]

I wouldn't advocate wider spacing between bus stops, in the main. What is needed is speedier operation i.e. fare collection. It is amazing how quickly a bus can load and be on its way in London as opposed to where I now live (Cornwall). I would never dream of hopping on a bus in Penzance for the half a mile or so journey to the Bus Station, regardless of the weather and the fact that I too qualify for free travel. The buses seem to take forever to load, though I admit passholders are treated vsomewhat quicker now in theory than a year or two back.

Bus stops in Britain are nearer together than they are in mainland Europe, but tram stops are further apart. I do agree that speeding up fare collection is more important. At least we don't have stops every 100 metres like in the USA.

 

[tsangpogorge]

Hi all first time posting here! Lived in Manchester for a year back in 2006 and had a chance to ride the Bury/Altrincham and Picc/Eccles lines, thought it was a fantastic service, a great way to revitalise part of the underused heavy rail network around Manchester and a nice addition to the city centre street scene. Back then expansion seemed dead in the water but cut to 2016 and Ashton, Oldham, Rochdale, East Didsbury and the Airport are all on the network too of which the latter two, to my delight, re-use what was once the old Midland rote into Central station. Having said that East Disbury and the Airport were already extremely well connected to central Manchester by bus and train so was a Metrolink service necessary? Would be interested to see any usage figures and hear what experiences any one here has had travelling on the Airport route in particular which seems not only superfluous but circuitous and at present only terminates at Cornbrook.

 

[Ianno87]

Hi all first time posting here! Lived in Manchester for a year back in 2006 and had a chance to ride the Bury/Altrincham and Picc/Eccles lines, thought it was a fantastic service, a great way to revitalise part of the underused heavy rail network around Manchester and a nice addition to the city centre street scene. Back then expansion seemed dead in the water but cut to 2016 and Ashton, Oldham, Rochdale, East Didsbury and the Airport are all on the network too of which the latter two, to my delight, re-use what was once the old Midland rote into Central station. Having said that East Disbury and the Airport were already extremely well connected to central Manchester by bus and train so was a Metrolink service necessary? Would be interested to see any usage figures and hear what experiences any one here has had travelling on the Airport route in particular which seems not only superfluous but circuitous and at present only terminates at Cornbrook.

The Airport line is not really intended for Airport-City Centre journeys, it's about linking the Airport to Wythenshawe (for workers) and also Wythenshawe to the City Centre (which is otherwise a very long bus ride).

Similarly the East Didsbury route is about linking to reasonabky affluent parts of central/western Didsbury, and Chorlton, that are otherwise remote from a rail service and still a long-ish bus ride into town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hi all first time posting here! Lived in Manchester for a year back in 2006 and had a chance to ride the Bury/Altrincham and Picc/Eccles lines, thought it was a fantastic service, a great way to revitalise part of the underused heavy rail network around Manchester and a nice addition to the city centre street scene. Back then expansion seemed dead in the water but cut to 2016 and Ashton, Oldham, Rochdale, East Didsbury and the Airport are all on the network too of which the latter two, to my delight, re-use what was once the old Midland rote into Central station. Having said that East Disbury and the Airport were already extremely well connected to central Manchester by bus and train so was a Metrolink service necessary? Would be interested to see any usage figures and hear what experiences any one here has had travelling on the Airport route in particular which seems not only superfluous but circuitous and at present only terminates at Cornbrook.

The Airport line is not really intended for Airport-City Centre journeys, it's about linking the Airport to Wythenshawe (for workers) and also Wythenshawe to the City Centre (which is otherwise a very long bus ride).

Similarly the East Didsbury route is about linking to reasonably affluent parts of central/western Didsbury, and Chorlton, that are otherwise remote from a rail service and still a long-ish bus ride into town.

 

[WatcherZero]

Airport line patronage is currently 187,000 a month. A 1/3rd increase as it enters its second year.

 

[Altfish]

Airport line patronage is currently 187,000 a month. A 1/3rd increase as it enters its second year.

I suspect that will rise significantly when 2CC opens and the service continues, without the need for a change, via St Peter's Square to Victoria

 

[miami]

Back then expansion seemed dead in the water.

I remember there was a "Metrolink 2000" poster in our geography class room around 1994, Seemed an enourmous network compared to the single line that had just opened. As a wee lad at the time the next few years certainly meant nothing was happening. Then Eccles opened, but it wasn't really a network.

Far more impressive now, still needs double the lines though, and an orbital would be good too.

 

[northwichcat]

I remember there was a "Metrolink 2000" poster in our geography class room around 1994, Seemed an enourmous network compared to the single line that had just opened. As a wee lad at the time the next few years certainly meant nothing was happening. Then Eccles opened, but it wasn't really a network.

Far more impressive now, still needs double the lines though, and an orbital would be good too.

I recall around 2006 when GMPTE got a front page spread on the Metros distributed in the Manchester area to show the future Metrolink network map if the congestion charge went ahead, showing lines to places including Leigh and The Trafford Centre.

 

[Camden]

Airport line patronage is currently 187,000 a month. A 1/3rd increase as it enters its second year.

2m a year. How long to pay back its capital costs from its takings minus inflation/interest, running costs, maintenance and cyclicals? 100 years? More? Ever?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I recall around 2006 when GMPTE got a front page spread on the Metros distributed in the Manchester area to show the future Metrolink network map if the congestion charge went ahead, showing lines to places including Leigh and The Trafford Centre.

Do not forget that when the double-banded congestion charge proposal was put to the ten constituent areas of "Greater Manchester" in the referendum that had much spent in the way of exhortation to say how the Manchester Metrolink system would be able to be expanded, all ten areas, even the rock-solid Labour strongholds of Manchester, Salford and Wigan, voted overwhelmingly with a "NO" vote to reject those aspirations.

 

[nerd]

2m a year. How long to pay back its capital costs from its takings minus inflation/interest, running costs, maintenance and cyclicals? 100 years? More? Ever?

Actually the Airport Line is currently running at a monthly rate equivalent to 2.5m passengers per year.

The rule of thumb for Metrolink is that lines pay back their cost when they carry 6m passenges a year or more. At present that is the case for only three lines - Altrincham, Bury and Eccles; though Eccles only achieved notional pay-back performance some ten years after opening. Nevetheless, it is already apparent that the South Manchester and Oldham/Rochdale lines will pass over into the black sometime in 2017. Given that they had a good 18 month head-start, I would be surprised in Airport Line did not join them a year of so later.