Future for Class 180 Adelante fleets

[Zomboid]

OA have simpler diagrams and fewer drivers

 

[357]

OA have simpler diagrams and fewer drivers

Fewer diagrams perhaps, but looking at my diagram book I'd beg to differ that they are simpler.

I'd say it's more down to the desire to run a train service for the benefit of the people buying tickets, rather than my experience working at multiple TOCs where a large percentage of staff in all grades didn't really care if we ran a decent service or not.

 

[jonnyrobbo85]

Apologies if this has been asked already and I've missed it, do we know why 180109 (and180113 I believe) were moved to Widnes?

 

[trainswitheddy]

Apologies if this has been asked already and I've missed it, do we know why 180109 (and180113 I believe) were moved to Widnes?

Afaik can only speculate still...I still think NR no matter how silly it may be

 

[Driver068]

Apologies in advance however I have scimmed through this thread and unsure if if my question has been answered, I'm looking to see where the 4 180s are currently being held in storage. I'm led to believe 110 and 111 are stored at Ely. My questions are...


1. Are all the remaining 4x 180s at the same location.

2. What's their current state, are they road worthy.

I ask because I over heard someone mention GC are looking at obtaining all 4 to assist in the coupler overhaul and additional sets for this potential Cleethorpes extension. There's rumours circulating the 2x 221s GC currently lease are being returned as it's too costly to maintain.

Any information and/or correction on this would be appreciated lol

 

[trainswitheddy]

Apologies in advance however I have scimmed through this thread and unsure if if my question has been answered, I'm looking to see where the 4 180s are currently being held in storage. I'm led to believe 110 and 111 are stored at Ely. My questions are...


1. Are all the remaining 4x 180s at the same location.

2. What's their current state, are they road worthy.

I ask because I over heard someone mention GC are looking at obtaining all 4 to assist in the coupler overhaul and additional sets for this potential Cleethorpes extension. There's rumours circulating the 2x 221s GC currently lease are being returned as it's too costly to maintain.

Any information and/or correction on this would be appreciated lol

Aren't 2 180s at Alstom Widnes atm?

 

[Starmill]

They're quite unreliable and very small in number. I'm not sure anyone could possibly find a use for them as is...

The one thing they would perhaps be useful for is parts for the 175s. Even that's a stretch given the claims of inconsistent electronics inside them. It may be limited to things like spare seat frames or toilet doors etc. Other 175s may be a more economical choice to provide parts than 180s, too.

 

[D365]

Other 175s may be a more economical choice to provide parts than 180s, too.

This is already happening - one of the ’hybrid’ 175s will not be returning to traffic for GWR.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Design issues which affected the Coradia and Juniper fleets from Washwood Heath meant they had inherent issues from build, by the time First GWR finally got them they had lost interest and moved on so replaced the units ASAP. The units then sat around with no future, Northern took some as a stop gap and East Coast plans to use them got cancelled, HT's and GC picked them up but neither of them was going to spend big on the units.

During the sporadic running they have had there was little loving maintenance / ownership of the units so issues didn't get rectified, modifications didn't get made and the contracted maintainers had limited experience of the units so had little chance or incentive to improve them. If GWR had kept the 14 units they would have had to fix the issues so some effort would have been made and performance would have been better, similar to what SWT's did with the 458's. Don't forget HT's diagrammed 3 from 4 units per day running massive mileages, they got five 802 units to replace them.

Once they are finished with GC, if there is no passenger boom and a rolling stock shortage, the best option would be scrapping.

At Washwood Heath, was it just poor build quality plaguing the Coradia 1000/Juniper models? If the same models had been built elsewhere at a different plant, would the finished products actually have been reliable? In my opinion the Class 175/180 Coradia 1000 are splendid from a passenger perspective. I would go as far as saying they have nicer interiors than their contemporaries like Turbostars. The door at each end Intercity feel makes for a comfortable, quiet journey.

 

[Helvellyn]

At Washwood Heath, was it just poor build quality plaguing the Coradia 1000/Juniper models? If the same models had been built elsewhere at a different plant, would the finished products actually have been reliable? In my opinion the Class 175/180 Coradia 1000 are splendid from a passenger perspective. I would go as far as saying they have nicer interiors than their contemporaries like Turbostars. The door at each end Intercity feel makes for a comfortable, quiet journey.

I think it has been said that below the solebar they were built to a price, so that coupled with poor build quality has caused issues.

SWT showed that a small fleet (30 458 units) could be reliable but even there they have had stays of execution - retained in the 2007 franchise as cheaper to lease than 442s, which saw 450s/444s cascaded. Then rebuilt as part of the mid-2010s HLOS capacity expansion as 5-cars. Now the majority back to 4-cars to replace 442s (again) although not on the intended Portsmouth route.

The ultimate problem was small orphaned fleets. On the diesel units they might have benefitted from having the 175s/180s with one operator at one depot. The 180s, regarded for 100mph operation, might have been a good unit for Bristol-Portsmouth alongside the 175s in Devon and Cornwall. Unlikely to happen now where I suspect the 180s will head for scrap once Grand Central's IETs enter service, stripped of suitable spares that have commonality with the 175s to keep them going until the GWR DMU replacement fleet is ordered and in service.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I think it has been said that below the solebar they were built to a price, so that coupled with poor build quality has caused issues.

SWT showed that a small fleet (30 458 units) could be reliable but even there they have had stays of execution - retained in the 2007 franchise as cheaper to lease than 442s, which saw 450s/444s cascaded. Then rebuilt as part of the mid-2010s HLOS capacity expansion as 5-cars. Now the majority back to 4-cars to replace 442s (again) although not on the intended Portsmouth route.

The ultimate problem was small orphaned fleets. On the diesel units they might have benefitted from having the 175s/180s with one operator at one depot. The 180s, regarded for 100mph operation, might have been a good unit for Bristol-Portsmouth alongside the 175s in Devon and Cornwall. Unlikely to happen now where I suspect the 180s will head for scrap once Grand Central's IETs enter service, stripped of suitable spares that have commonality with the 175s to keep them going until the GWR DMU replacement fleet is ordered and in service.

The Alstom fleet from that time which shows the others up is the Pendolino fleet - despite being complex trains they have shown impressive reliability figures, particularly when Virgin were operating them.

 

[Zomboid]

I didn't think the 175s had been that bad. Not great, but useably reliable in a way that the 180s probably weren't.

 

[HSTEd]

The first class in the Hull Trains 180 had tables on the single row side that were not fixed to the bodyside. I remember they would go into resonance vibrations on the ECML quite regularly.

Is that a problem common to all the 180s?

 

[Mgameing123]

I think it has been said that below the solebar they were built to a price, so that coupled with poor build quality has caused issues.

SWT showed that a small fleet (30 458 units) could be reliable but even there they have had stays of execution - retained in the 2007 franchise as cheaper to lease than 442s, which saw 450s/444s cascaded. Then rebuilt as part of the mid-2010s HLOS capacity expansion as 5-cars. Now the majority back to 4-cars to replace 442s (again) although not on the intended Portsmouth route.

The ultimate problem was small orphaned fleets. On the diesel units they might have benefitted from having the 175s/180s with one operator at one depot. The 180s, regarded for 100mph operation, might have been a good unit for Bristol-Portsmouth alongside the 175s in Devon and Cornwall. Unlikely to happen now where I suspect the 180s will head for scrap once Grand Central's IETs enter service, stripped of suitable spares that have commonality with the 175s to keep them going until the GWR DMU replacement fleet is ordered and in service.

I doubt that they will go to scrap yet. Open Access Operators might be interested in using them as a “get the service up and running” unit.

 

[adc82140]

What future do the ex EMR 180s at Ely have?

1. New operator (unlikely, there are only 4 of them)
2. Keep them in store till the GC 180s are done with, then hope the whole fleet can find a new home (that could be a few years)
3. Export
4. Stripped for parts to keep the rest running
5. Intermediate cars used to strengthen 2 car 175s to 3 cars (a solution looking for a problem?)
6. Scrap

Any thoughts?

 

[1D53]

GC have/had aspirations to run to Cleethorpes, portion working off the Bradford at Doncaster, this would have required additional units. If that doesn't play out then 4 and ultimately 6 are the only options. GC did hire a couple the other year to cover their own fleet failures but reliability has generally improved and the units left have been stood in a field so long now I'm not sure how reliable they'd be.

 

[liamf656]

4 then 6 I would think

 

[Anonymous10]

What future do the ex EMR 180s at Ely have?

1. New operator (unlikely, there are only 4 of them)
2. Keep them in store till the GC 180s are done with, then hope the whole fleet can find a new home (that could be a few years)
3. Export
4. Stripped for parts to keep the rest running
5. Intermediate cars used to strengthen 2 car 175s to 3 cars (a solution looking for a problem?)
6. Scrap

Any thoughts?

Strengthening 2 car 175s to 3 cars isnt as bad an idea as you may think, given the cornish mainline they will be working can be quite busy in summer.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

2. Keep them in store till the GC 180s are done with, then hope the whole fleet can find a new home (that could be a few years)

I don't think any DfT operator has much reason to take them on, most 125mph lines use electric power now for some/all of the journey.
The only way I could see the 180s going to a new operator would be an Open Access Operator.

 

[brad465]

If 180s have a number of compatible parts with 175s, I could see a combination of 4 and 5, naturally leading onto 6, although lengthening 175s doesn't seem plausible.

 

[NCT]

Technically, could intermediate cars be used to lengthen existing GC units?

I’m not getting the impression the 180s are loved. I think a lonely death is the most likely outcome.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

What future do the ex EMR 180s at Ely have?

1. New operator (unlikely, there are only 4 of them)
2. Keep them in store till the GC 180s are done with, then hope the whole fleet can find a new home (that could be a few years)
3. Export
4. Stripped for parts to keep the rest running
5. Intermediate cars used to strengthen 2 car 175s to 3 cars (a solution looking for a problem?)
6. Scrap

Any thoughts?

Could you use the middle cars to strengthen the GC 180s?

 

[Charlie978]

Could you use the middle cars to strengthen the GC 180s?

Regardless of the technical aspect of that, I believe there are many GC and Lumo diagrams into Kings Cross limited to 5 cars due to platform sharing. Not sure on the exact details of it but it gets mentioned a fair bit on here.

You would then end up with an EMR style fleet of some 5 cars where they are needed to share platforms in London, and some longer units that can’t but are limited to certain diagrams. Strangely enough that could actually lead to less available seats if reliability on 5 car sets suffers.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Regardless of the technical aspect of that, I believe there are many GC and Lumo diagrams into Kings Cross limited to 5 cars due to platform sharing. Not sure on the exact details of it but it gets mentioned a fair bit on here.

You would then end up with an EMR style fleet of some 5 cars where they are needed to share platforms in London, and some longer units that can’t but are limited to certain diagrams. Strangely enough that could actually lead to less available seats if reliability on 5 car sets suffers.

Fair enough. Just a thought I had.

 

[Amos390]

180109

Why would a 180 need to go to Litchurch, is it for storage or has it been taken up by a TOC?

 

[martin butler]

Could 180,s be used on SWR west of England services, replacing 159,s a small fleet maintained as Salisbury do they have clearance over 3rd rail routes, such as Basingstoke to Waterloo?

 

[CarrotPie]

Could 180,s be used on SWR west of England services, replacing 159,s a small fleet maintained as Salisbury do they have clearance over 3rd rail routes, such as Basingstoke to Waterloo?

Why? Salisbury's 158/9s and 159s are the most reliable (ex-BR) diesel fleet in the country. Why replace them with the 180s? As a certain Paul Tyreman once said, you'll be going nowhere.

 

[martin butler]

Why? Salisbury's 158/9s and 159s are the most reliable (ex-BR) diesel fleet in the country. Why replace them with the 180s? As a certain Paul Tyreman once said, you'll be going nowhere.

Aren't 159s now getting close to be life expired?

 

[stevieinselby]

Could 180,s be used on SWR west of England services, replacing 159,s a small fleet maintained as Salisbury do they have clearance over 3rd rail routes, such as Basingstoke to Waterloo?

A poor choice in every respect.
The 180s, while not as bad as they once were, are still unreliable junk – the 159s are indestructible.
The 180s are fixed formation 5-car units, the 159s can be formed in any of 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9-car sets.
The timetable includes some services that split/join.
Loss of walk-through if you double the trains up.

 

[1D53]

Aren't 159s now getting close to be life expired?

Yes but they are at least reliable and spare parts etc are fairly plentiful. 180s are unreliable, spare parts are a problem and they'd be a huge training burden.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2026 ==

You'd also be looking at replacing 100ish Class 158/159 vehicles with 70 Class 180 vehicles.