Future EMU Cascades

[MCR247]

Even if it is not a class 379, bombardier need to be delivering something similar to it if they win the bid because as you say Ajax, FCC serves major two airports, not just one.

Woah! Lets not get too hasty! If they can deliver something on-time i'll give them a round of applause, whatever it is

 

[Class377/5]

My understanding was that

• The four "semi fast" services each hour from KX (two to Cambridge, two to Peterborough) would be going through the Thameslink tunnel, and so be NXEMU routes
  
• The two "fast" Cambridge services would still run from KX, and be nothing to do with Thameslink (to go to IEP, longer term)
  
• The Moorgate service will stay in the hands of 313s for the forseeable future

Whilst I could see the 365s being kept for the "fast" Cambridge services, what would the 317/321s do? By my logic they'd be freed up. I appreciate that some of this is guesswork/ rumours/ plans (which are subject to change).

The idea was that more platforms on the GN were to be extended under KO2. to allow more 12 car trains. Under this the timetable being formed was based on keeping the current fleet intact to provide the post TLP timetable increasing seats. But as you said its subject to change so things may have moved on since this was last briefed out.

Officially, and in the public domain, Modern Railways Dec 2009 provides all the data - a 12 car fixed formation Aventra has 620 seats.

This compares to an 8 car 319 which has approx 600 seats depending on sub class.

Unofficially, this has also been confirmed by someone in FCC who knows his onions, and independently by someone from one of the bidders I sat next to at lunch today.

Personally, the new trains can't come soon enough. Yet again today I had to clamber over numerous suitcases (and a punter) to get out of a 319 because of the quite unsuitable layout these trains have for airport + commuter traffic.

I hadn't actually seen that figure. But thats worse than a 377 and the idea being that capcity is increased by removing four cabs so the seating capcaity is supposed to go up. Is this figure is true then where the hell is this extra space dissapearing to? (unless its luggage space). Note the the 12 car 377 will have 3 disabled loos which take up alot of space.

Just to compare seating on units in 12 car formations

• 319/0 - 957 seats
• 319/2 - 690 seats (54 first class) (this figure may be different now the dinning area has been removed)
• 319/3 - 900 seats
• 319/4 - 867 seats (36 first class)
• 377/5 - 723 seats (60 first class)

As for the fact each NXEMU is supposed to hold up to 1,500 (and thats offical within FCC) then 600 just doesn't cut it. Current figures show that peak 8 car services carry over 1,000 people, going off what you've heard (which is different to what I've been told) that its expected for only 40% of people travelling should expect a seat?

The bidders had to prove a max exit and entry of 1,000 people at a station stop within 45 seconds. I suppose if everyone is standing this will help things along but can't help think that the figure of 600 seats is wrong.

 

[Bald Rick]

All the extra space will be used to ease circulation, reduce dwell times and provide more standing room. Max 2+2 seating, wide corridors, big door stand backs, that sort of thing.

MCR247 - the 379s have been delivered on time and entered service on the day specified in the contract, so start clapping now!

 

[jon0844]

I have to assume the semi-fasts from PBO and CBG will remain 8-car, as many (most?) stops it makes today can't take 12-car trains. I don't think they're all down to be lengthened either.

I'm not too worried about that, but my personal concern is that when they stop starting at King's Cross, there's a very good chance they'll get delayed - and I wonder how much thought has been put into how late trains coming through the core will affect the ECML with very little spare capacity.

 

[MCR247]

MCR247 - the 379s have been delivered on time and entered service on the day specified in the contract, so start clapping now!

True, although they couldn't do it on their own but never look a gift horse in the mouth....

Next step:

Ontime and fewer faults

 

[Whistler40145]

Why is it that London & Scotland get brand new EMUs, but the Northwest will inherit everyones cast offs!

 

[jon0844]

Besides the mechanicals, if you get trains like the 319s that are TOTALLY gutted and refurbished, with air conditioning, Wi-Fi, disabled access - they'll be VERY nice trains indeed. In fact, people who use them every day will be demanding to know why they weren't done when they had them!

 

[tbtc]

Besides the mechanicals, if you get trains like the 319s that are TOTALLY gutted and refurbished, with air conditioning, Wi-Fi, disabled access - they'll be VERY nice trains indeed. In fact, people who use them every day will be demanding to know why they weren't done when they had them!

I'm looking forward to seeing a refurbed 319 (if that is what Lancashire gets - not guaranteed, and still scope for the 319s to go elsewhere in the South East to cascade other EMUs to Lancashire).

Even un-refurbed 319s will be a lot better than the old 308s we had when Yorkshire last got electrification twenty years ago!
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Why is it that London & Scotland get brand new EMUs, but the Northwest will inherit everyones cast offs!

Blackpool will get EMUs whilst we are stuck with Pacers. Could be worse

 

[ainsworth74]

Blackpool will get EMUs whilst we are stuck with Pacers. Could be worse

Indeed if the NW doesn't want them because they're cast off's we in the NE will quite happily have the wires and 319s

 

[Whistler40145]

It's a good job 304/305s aren't still in traffic!

I was thinking more of why 323s couldn't be used to Blackpool?

Why not use the 319s for the Glossop & Stoke services?

 

[tbtc]

Indeed if the NW doesn't want them because they're cast off's we in the NE will quite happily have the wires and 319s

Likewise

 

[YorkshireBear]

Likewise

+1

I can think of loads of routes round sheffield and leeds that i would electrify

 

[northwichcat]

Besides the mechanicals, if you get trains like the 319s that are TOTALLY gutted and refurbished, with air conditioning, Wi-Fi, disabled access - they'll be VERY nice trains indeed. In fact, people who use them every day will be demanding to know why they weren't done when they had them!

Air conditioning was initially promised and fully accessible is a must for any refurbished trains now but Wi-Fi on local routes in the North of England? I'd be very surprised if that happens.
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Blackpool will get EMUs whilst we are stuck with Pacers. Could be worse

I think Blackpool will also be stuck with some Pacers. Colne-Blackpool South?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

was thinking more of why 323s couldn't be used to Blackpool?

Why not use the 319s for the Glossop & Stoke services?

Blackpool services would need the 4 carriages more. After all some 180s or double Sprinters can be overcrowded, while the Stoke services aren't too bad at 3 carriages. I think passenger numbers are lower on Glossop services as well (except when heavy snow closes all their roads) and the higher speed of the 319s isn't of much use on Glossop services.

 

[jon0844]

Air conditioning was initially promised and fully accessible is a must for any refurbished trains now but Wi-Fi on local routes in the North of England? I'd be very surprised if that happens.

By the time it happens, I doubt Wi-Fi will be that 'special' - just like standard class is now as good, or even better, than first class on other trains.

Wi-Fi would probably be part of the system that operates the PIS, GPS location etc.

 

[tbtc]

I think Blackpool will also be stuck with some Pacers. Colne-Blackpool South?

North certainly wont see anything shorter than three coaches (the 158s from York) under normal events, come electrification. Considering how many services are two coach at the moment that's some increase

Blackpool services would need the 4 carriages more. After all some 180s or double Sprinters can be overcrowded

Do you know whether any/all stations on the line from Manchester (via Bolton) and Liverpool (via Wigan) will cope with six/eight coach trains?

 

[YorkshireBear]

North certainly wont see anything shorter than three coaches (the 158s from York) under normal events, come electrification. Considering how many services are two coach at the moment that's some increase



Do you know whether any/all stations on the line from Manchester (via Bolton) and Liverpool (via Wigan) will cope with six/eight coach trains?

Unfortunately your forgetting that (at the moment anyway) alot of york blackpool north are 2 carriage 158's

Unless your reffering to them all becomming 3 car by electrification which i havent heard but obviously that doesnt mean your wrong

 

[Whistler40145]

I thought some of the 3 car 158s that formerly worked Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle TransPennine services had been cascaded for use on York-Blackpool, with the majority being 2 car sets.

 

[Whistler40145]

As we know ex-Thameslink Class 319s will be cascaded for use in the Northwest.

Will they be common user, with TPE & Northern sharing a nominated allocation of units?

Or will they get an equal allocation?

Also, where will the 185s be cascaded to?

 

[ukrob]

Why would TPE have any?

The original plan was TPE to use 350s.

The 185s won't be cascaded anywhere, they are for capacity enhancements on TPE.

 

[Ivo]

As we know ex-Thameslink Class 319s will be cascaded for use in the Northwest.

Will they be common user, with TPE & Northern sharing a nominated allocation of units?

Or will they get an equal allocation?

Don't forget that a sizeable number of 319s are not bound for the north-west at all (they are going to FGW for use on Thames Valley routes), so there wouldn't be enough for Northern and TPE. And even if there were, 319s wouldn't make suitable Intercity stock anyway; Bedford to Brighton is too far as it is (it only works in my opinion because it is effectively two commuter routes merged into one).

 

[ainsworth74]

The original plan was TPE to use 350s.

As far as I'm aware that remains the plan, or if not that then new build EMUs of some other type. Certainly the 319s are destined for Northern and nothing to do with TPE.

 

[tbtc]

As we know ex-Thameslink Class 319s will be cascaded for use in the Northwest

We don't know that they will be moving to the North West. We know that they'll not be needed on Thameslink and we know that Lancashire will need some EMUs, but it's not 100% that the 319s will go there. Northern could end up with more 323s, for example. Not certain.

Will they be common user, with TPE & Northern sharing a nominated allocation of units?

We don't know how the franchise boundaries will have changed by then. Manchester Airport - Blackpool could be part of Northern with Manchester Airport - Scotland going to West Coast. Or maybe Northern and TPE will be merged. Who knows...

Also, where will the 185s be cascaded to?

My prediction is for around fifteen 185s to be freed up. Nine of them to go to the Hull and Cleethorpes routes (to replace 170s which could go to a number of TOCs) and the others to double up on the core Leeds - Manchester route. Just my prediction...

 

[ainsworth74]

My prediction is for around fifteen 185s to be freed up. Nine of them to go to the Hull and Cleethorpes routes (to replace 170s which could go to a number of TOCs) and the others to double up on the core Leeds - Manchester route. Just my prediction...

Actually I'm rather hoping that the realeased 185s will go towards doubling up some services and onto south TPE, which would leave the 170s free to run on Manchester - Hull (as they were first meant to anyway!) and would hopefully allow a fair few of those services to be double 170s. Either way those fifteen 185s will be greatly appreciated wherever and whatever they end up doing on North/South TPE.

 

[tbtc]

Don't forget that a sizeable number of 319s are not bound for the north-west at all (they are going to FGW for use on Thames Valley routes), so there wouldn't be enough for Northern and TPE

I reckon there will be enough to do Lancashire *and* Thames Valley with some to spare (*if* the 319s do both routes).

In Lancashire there are about fifteen Northern diagrams "freed" plus fifteen TPE diagrams (most of which are the Scottish ones, which will get 350s or something "better" than a 319).

In the Thames Valley the branches will not be electrified (needing DMUs still for Greenford/ Henley/ Windsor/Eton, Marlow), IEP units will go onto the Oxford/ Bristol/ Cardiff, Crossrail will take over the Heathrow/ Maidenhead services, the Reading - Basingstoke/Gatwick lines won't be wired... not a lot of 319s required (London - Newbury, plus the Oxford slows?).

So, out of 86x 319s, maybe only half of them would be needed if they ran the Lancashire/ Thames Valley services as single units (eight coaches would be nice, of course )

 

[YorkshireBear]

I reckon there will be enough to do Lancashire *and* Thames Valley with some to spare (*if* the 319s do both routes).

In Lancashire there are about fifteen Northern diagrams "freed" plus fifteen TPE diagrams (most of which are the Scottish ones, which will get 350s or something "better" than a 319).

In the Thames Valley the branches will not be electrified (needing DMUs still for Greenford/ Henley/ Windsor/Eton, Marlow), IEP units will go onto the Oxford/ Bristol/ Cardiff, Crossrail will take over the Heathrow/ Maidenhead services, the Reading - Basingstoke/Gatwick lines won't be wired... not a lot of 319s required (London - Newbury, plus the Oxford slows?).

So, out of 86x 319s, maybe only half of them would be needed if they ran the Lancashire/ Thames Valley services as single units (eight coaches would be nice, of course )

cant see any problems in your logic there.

Surely thamesvalley branches should be done and 319's put on them? surely buisness case is high? but that is another topic.

So basically were saying that 185's are gonna replace 170's with tpe
so 170's to ? XC? Just to check these 9 units dont include thge windermere and barrow branches do they?

 

[tbtc]

Actually I'm rather hoping that the realeased 185s will go towards doubling up some services and onto south TPE, which would leave the 170s free to run on Manchester - Hull (as they were first meant to anyway!) and would hopefully allow a fair few of those services to be double 170s. Either way those fifteen 185s will be greatly appreciated wherever and whatever they end up doing on North/South TPE.

True.

I appreciate the argument about the 185s being heavy for the Hull line, but they can do it in the same path as a 170. I think that as the 170s could increase capacity on several other TOCs (NXEA, LM, XC, FSR etc), and create a mini cascade (e.g. NXEA taking some 170s and releasing a few 156s to Northern, LM taking some 170s and releasing a few 153s to EMT, FSR taking some 170s and releasing a few 158s to FGW...) that TPE won't be able to keep them. 51x 185s will be a good number to run the existing north/south TPE services, allowing a few Manchester - Leeds trains to be six coaches anyhow (I'd love to see doubling up on the Sheffield route, but know that won't happen).
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Surely thamesvalley branches should be done and 319's put on them? surely buisness case is high? but that is another topic

YES, YES, YES!

If you're going to electrify, do it properly, do Windermere/ Henley/ Basingstoke etc whilst you do the "main" lines. But, as you say, that's for another thread

 

[Whistler40145]

That makes it clearer.

I think it's a bit crazy that TPE & Northern hadn't merged before now.

If e.g. London Midland acquire further 350s, the 323s used in the Birmingham area could go to Northern?

I presume Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh will transfer to EMUs?

It would be beneficial to electrify Windermere-Oxenholme. I would presume that the Barrow-Manchester Airport could be terminated at Preston or Lancaster to minimise the use of a DMU under the wires?

 

[ainsworth74]

I appreciate the argument about the 185s being heavy for the Hull line, but they can do it in the same path as a 170. I think that as the 170s could increase capacity on several other TOCs (NXEA, LM, XC, FSR etc), and create a mini cascade (e.g. NXEA taking some 170s and releasing a few 156s to Northern, LM taking some 170s and releasing a few 153s to EMT, FSR taking some 170s and releasing a few 158s to FGW...) that TPE won't be able to keep them. 51x 185s will be a good number to run the existing north/south TPE services, allowing a few Manchester - Leeds trains to be six coaches anyhow (I'd love to see doubling up on the Sheffield route, but know that won't happen).

True

What can I say I was just being a bit selfish with the rolling stock and wanting the best outcome possibly without looking at the befits to be had by cascading away the 170s of which there are many (as you suggest).

If you're going to electrify, do it properly, do Windermere/ Henley/ Basingstoke etc whilst you do the "main" lines. But, as you say, that's for another thread

It would be nice to do an electrification project properly for once wouldn't it but I can't see it happening to be honest.

Just to check these 9 units dont include thge windermere and barrow branches do they?

Yep the 170s stick predominately to Manchester - Hull/Sheffield/Cleethorps and don't appear on the NW TPE services. I'm not actually sure if those TPE crews actually sign them.

 

[YorkshireBear]

True.

I appreciate the argument about the 185s being heavy for the Hull line, but they can do it in the same path as a 170. I think that as the 170s could increase capacity on several other TOCs (NXEA, LM, XC, FSR etc), and create a mini cascade (e.g. NXEA taking some 170s and releasing a few 156s to Northern, LM taking some 170s and releasing a few 153s to EMT, FSR taking some 170s and releasing a few 158s to FGW...) that TPE won't be able to keep them. 51x 185s will be a good number to run the existing north/south TPE services, allowing a few Manchester - Leeds trains to be six coaches anyhow (I'd love to see doubling up on the Sheffield route, but know that won't happen).
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YES, YES, YES!

If you're going to electrify, do it properly, do Windermere/ Henley/ Basingstoke etc whilst you do the "main" lines. But, as you say, that's for another thread

Wow very excited response. Presuming from that post that the 9 185's did it include those used from barrow and windermere.


Meadowhall can just take a 4 car 170, but then again i only think it would need doubleing sheffield manchester (airport or picadilly) so not a problem.
anyone know what loadings are for scunthorpe cleethorpes?

FSR only have 3 car 170s? so would it be difficult for them therefore i would personally see LM NXEA and XC being the three benefactors.

i see the confusion, i have said 9 diagrams when i meant 15. I was asking if the 15 TPE 185's tbtc said would be freed included windermere and barrow branches or just electrified bits. sorry i knew about 170's

 

[ainsworth74]

I presume Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh will transfer to EMUs?

That's the plan as it currently stands. The only question is what sort of EMU will be procured to run the services, will it be 350s or a new design entirely? We don't have the definitive answer to that yet as far as I know.