Future EMU Cascades

[northwichcat]

You mean the OJEU tender from LM for 3-car units and prospective extra capacity?! Admittedly it was never closed, but it was certainly an official document.

No I mean the DfT document on rolling stock procurement prior to electrification annoucements that said the Northern 323s would go to London Midland and Northern would get new EMUs to replace them, as well as new DMU vehicles. Then it was revised to say that Northern would get 'new or cascaded EMUs' A rail magazine published that the 323 cascade would be reversed and that LM would get new commuter EMUs but DfT never announced that. The whole rolling stock procurement plan was cancelled when electrification was announced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Yorkshire and Humberside RUS makes clear mention to extending many of the West Yorkshire electric services to work in six carriage formation, whilst stating that it would not be possible to extend the current rolling stock (the 333s) to six carriages. Whilst 323s are not mentioned specifically, it seems reasonable to assume that they would be a logical choice for such an expanded service provision, especially as LMs’ 350/3 build for the Cross City line was being mooted during the time the RUS was being developed.

It actually states
Eight additional peak vehicle arrivals are required to meet overcrowding and the best way to deliver this would be to lengthen the four busiest services to six-car formations. However, the precise deployment of vehicles will depend on the DfT Rolling Stock Plan

As I stated above the DfT plan was for Northern to get new EMUs. I seem to remember the draft Yorkshire RUS specifically mentioned tagging on extra EMUs when Northern order new EMUs but the wording probably got changed in the final RUS due to uncertainity.

 

[me123]

whatever comes for the edinburgh glasgow, 6 coaches at all times is a must! If they can beat that journeytime down then many, coleegs of mine for example will nolonger drive which they do at present as they dont see 50 minutes on something overcrouded that stops 3 times plus as worth it! however, 37 mins makes it far more attractive!

Good luck beating the train on the hell that is the M8, including the nice gap where it returns to A8. I've always advocated that the road should be downgraded to single carriageway; everyone just sits in the fast lane anyway, so there's no point paying to maintain the left hand lane.

The train doesn't need 6 cars at all times, although all the services in the rush hour obviously do. It's not actually that bad at the moment when everything goes according to plan. Overcrowding isn't really a major issue as long as all the rush hour trains get their 6 cars. However, I would suggest ordering 4 carriage trains (ie, maximum 8 carriages) as part of EGIP to allow for future growth on the route; provided you can modify the platforms at Queen Street to accept longer trains (which would require quite major reconstruction of the station). I would suggest not going for a mix of 3 and 4 car trains, and just buying a load of 4 car sets which would also work up to Stirling, Dunblane and Alloa (and onwards should the need arise).

Looking at the proposals, a 380 (or variant thereof) which includes First Class accommodation would be ideal.

 

[swt_passenger]

...The whole rolling stock procurement plan was cancelled when electrification was announced.

I think you might mean that the whole 'new DMU' procurement plan (202 vehicles) was cancelled when electrifcation was announced.

Recent EMU moves in the southeast are still (although loosely in some cases) related to the HLOS and the rolling stock plan, such as the cascades of the LM 321s, the LO 313s, and the new 379s for Stansted express.

If SWT get any additional units - which is still to be decided - that will also be an RSP proposal happening - in any case the deadline for RSP additions was 2014, not March 2011...

 

[northwichcat]

Recent EMU moves in the southeast are still (although loosely in some cases) related to the HLOS and the rolling stock plan, such as the cascades of the LM 321s, the LO 313s, and the new 379s for Stansted express.

The 350/2s and 378s and 379s had already been ordered at that point if the 321 and 313 cascades hadn't gone ahead they would have been sitting in sidings doing nothing which would be stupid.

The current plan seems to be Thameslink gets all the new stock and other areas get old Thameslink stock eventually.

 

[tbtc]

If SWT get any additional units

...then can we have the 158 off the Lymington branch? Yes, we are that desperate for additional capacity that a two coach 158 would be most welcome!

 

[northwichcat]

...then can we have the 158 off the Lymington branch? Yes, we are that desperate for additional capacity that a two coach 158 would be most welcome!

A 2 coach 158 is better than a 142, 144, 150, 153, 155 and 156 (i.e. most of what Northern have.)

The SWT 158s and 159s have been refubished so have nicer interiors than the 158s used to have with ATN, FNW and CT.

 

[tbtc]

A 2 coach 158 is better than a 142, 144, 150, 153, 155 and 156 (i.e. most of what Northern have.)

The SWT 158s and 159s have been refubished so have nicer interiors than the 158s used to have with ATN, FNW and CT.

If the SWT 158/159s are as nice inside as the EMT refurbished ones then I'd be very happy to have more up here

 

[northwichcat]

If the SWT 158/159s are as nice inside as the EMT refurbished ones then I'd be very happy to have more up here

They're not quite the same. The SWT ones retain more table seating and thicker seat padding.

 

[rail-britain]

Class 320. Whilst I can see the logic in putting the 321s together, and treating 322s as 321s, the 320s are different. Is there anywhere else for these 75mph units?

As above, the Class 320 units have all now been converted for 90mph
They are similar to the Class 318 units already in use in Scotland, making their maintenance easier at Shields Depot

Class 380. I thought there’d be dozens more of these in Scotland in a few years time (with the need for electrification to Dunblane etc). However, teething problems may make this less likely.

The next order for EMUs in Scotland is slightly different, it will be based on the Class 380 with a 125mph maximum speed, First Class, and some other options
However, given the teething problems with the introduction of the Class 380 TS might be more demanding with the specification and procurement process on this order (which will need to be placed by the end of 2012)
This will then be followed by a third order for EMUs, to replace DMUs on the Glasgow South, again likely to be based on the Class 380

 

[Peter Sarf]

The current plan seems to be Thameslink gets all the new stock and other areas get old Thameslink stock eventually.

I think that is the only way to make one large standard fleet of new EMUs likely. The Thameslink 2000 project (I REMEMBER that is what it was called last century !) is quite a big order IF the whole fleet is replaced. I just hope that Thameslink dont decide to complicate things by specifying two different types/requirements !!!. Crossrail will have the same chance (and I remember that being talked about when I was using the central line in 1988).

If each TOC that will get cascaded units were to order new ones instead then we are guaranteed to have a myriad of different requirements. I believe that electrification is more likely if second hand EMUs are used. I hope electrification of a route is more likely if it only has to justify funding of second hand EMUs rather than new EMUs on top of the actual electrification. Lets face it a clapped out 313 is better than a pacer. New EMUs can be paid for ten years later.

Note my two asides, in brackets, in the first paragraph. The main thing to understand is that any project in the UK will hang around for at least a quarter of a century before any real money is spent. ANYTHING that speeds up that process is a good thing. I suspect the alternative to the pacers was
N O T H I N G
i.e. closed lines. If we got on with things quickly we would have built HS2 by now and completed it before tinkering with the WCML.

 

[MacCookie]

The next order for EMUs in Scotland is slightly different, it will be based on the Class 380 with a 125mph maximum speed, First Class, and some other options
However, given the teething problems with the introduction of the Class 380 TS might be more demanding with the specification and procurement process on this order (which will need to be placed by the end of 2012)

So they're going to get 125mph units for a line where the maximum speed is 100mph?

Ewan

 

[jon0844]

AC traction can last stupidly long - there are some pretty impressively rebuilt kit on the continent that is unrecognisable from what it started out as.

I have to say that the refreshed 313s on FCC look pretty modern and while people probably know they're not very new (!), most won't realise they were made in the mid/late 70s.

Seeing what Southern has done with them, I think they can go on for as long as the structure holds out. I don't think ANY of them are clapped out. I presume the 315s are much the same, even if I do detest the interior (colours).

Anyway, when the 313s do get replaced which they have to as they can't last forever - a 378 type but with 2+2 seating, a higher top speed of 90mph and a toilet would be nice.

But you do already know a 313 can do around 90mph (maybe more) when given actually the chance!! I've been on one that was diverted out on to the down fast and, my God, the driver was pushing it!!

75mph? Pah!

I can't see the point in permanent six-car trains along the Hertford Loop. I think the option should be there for all trains to be six-cars, but I think to have it permanently would be OTT.

If the trains had a walk-through design like the 378s, wouldn't it make sense to build a certain number of 6-car formed trains, and then some 3-car trains that can be joined up if needed?

That way the 3-car trains can be 'brought out' for off-peak running, and 6-cars used at peak times, some of which could be made up of the 3-cars being joined up. Yes this loses the ability to walk through the whole train, but will only be a fairly small number. At the point where the changeover is made, as most of the 6-car trains go back to the depot, it will be when the peak is ending/beginning anyway.

The 313s are VERY busy for a lot of the day (including late at night), but at other times (mid morning, mid afternoon) are near empty - I think I've been the only person on one for about half of the trip from Hatfield to Old Street, and it never picked up many people along the way. I think the number of trains that could do with only 3-cars are quite small though - and over time will get even smaller until, ten years from now, 6-cars might be needed all day.

One thing that might change that is if we get a 15-minute service frequency, although while that means a lot of extra capacity - it might also attract a lot more usage for the extra convenience. By then, we might even see WGC and Hertford becoming part of the Oyster card system.

 

[159220]

The IEP was to replace the Kings Lynn services only. Cambridge slow services could still use 365 and the 317 are more likely to go first.

I read in Rail today that the only electric IEPs on the East Coast shall be for Cambridge fasts and extentions to Kings Lynn. Though i think this is excellent, purely for selfish reasons as by time the SETs are in service i shall be living in Cambridge. Isnt it a waste of the Class 365s, the times i have been on them, i have been highly impressed for ride comfort and speed for a train that has openable windows.

 

[jon0844]

That's because on many 365s you can't close the damn windows!!

 

[LE Greys]

I read in Rail today that the only electric IEPs on the East Coast shall be for Cambridge fasts and extentions to Kings Lynn. Though i think this is excellent, purely for selfish reasons as by time the SETs are in service i shall be living in Cambridge. Isnt it a waste of the Class 365s, the times i have been on them, i have been highly impressed for ride comfort and speed for a train that has openable windows.

You also get the air-blowers, and I wish we had those on modern, sealed units to stop it being so stifling.

That's because on many 365s you can't close the damn windows!!

True!

 

[RobShipway]

One thing that everyone seems to have forgotten in this thread is that once the Crossrail/Thameslink trains arrive they will actually replace the 377/5 trains with FCC which where originally meant for Southern anyway. Southern having the 377/5 trains from FCC would mean that it could get rid of the class 313 & class 442 trains that are currently being used.

Best trains for Thameslink/Crossrail is the class 379 Electrostar, but if that is to happen then the government needs to pull it's finger out and add the follow on order for these trains.

 

[tbtc]

One thing that everyone seems to have forgotten in this thread is that once the Crossrail/Thameslink trains arrive they will actually replace the 377/5 trains with FCC which where originally meant for Southern anyway. Southern having the 377/5 trains from FCC would mean that it could get rid of the class 313 & class 442 trains that are currently being used.

Best trains for Thameslink/Crossrail is the class 379 Electrostar, but if that is to happen then the government needs to pull it's finger out and add the follow on order for these trains.

Has anyone calculated how many units will be "freed" by Thameslink/Crossrail (plus IEP on the Cambridge "fasts")?

Presumably all the FCC units (317, 319, 321, 365, 377) apart from the 313s (which stay on Moorgate)... the NXEA 315s... the Heathrow Connect 360s...

I presume that's a few hundred?

Do you reckon the 23x 377/5s will go to Southern for the Blackfriars - Wimbiedon/Sutton service?

Also, are the 442s off elsewhere?

 

[Whistler40145]

The way I see it is this.
Will Network Rail be increasing the line speed on Liverpool Lime Street-Earlestown-Manchester, Preston-Manchester & Preston-Blackpool North? The above will determine which Class of EMU will work on each line.

 

[ukrob]

The answer is yes to Liverpool - Manchester via Earlestown. I don't know about the others.

I don't see what it has to do with which class of unit will be used?

 

[Whistler40145]

What I was meaning, a TOC wouldn't want to waste the use of a higher speed EMU on a line where it would be of no benefit.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you reckon the 23x 377/5s will go to Southern for the Blackfriars - Wimbiedon/Sutton service?

Also, are the 442s off elsewhere?

The 377/5s will be available to strengthen all sorts of SN services - don't forget there are all the platform lengthening projects going on in parallel to Thameslink. Internally they have the longer distance layout though, so may not necessarily be used on Metro services. Then certain SN (and SE) existing routes will be transferred to Thameslink as well for KO2.

Haven't heard anything about the 442s having an end date with SN - but the traction packages aren't getting any younger, I'm sure you are aware the motors were secondhand...

 

[Ivo]

What I was meaning, a TOC wouldn't want to waste the use of a higher speed EMU on a line where it would be of no benefit.

Believe me; this happens a lot down south so it's nothing new. 357s are capable of at least 100mph, yet their route is restricted to 75 at most. So vehicles' capabilities can be wasted quite easily.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thameslink order announcement was due this week, now probably next week, maybe not till May (don't you love certainty!)

The bidders are Bombardier with an all new unit, and the Siemens Desiro 'City'. So it won't be a Class 379, or son of.

The spec sees fixed formation 12 cars (and fixed formation 8 car); the 12 car has roughly the same number of seats as an 8 car 319. So lots more space for standing.

 

[tbtc]

Believe me; this happens a lot down south so it's nothing new. 357s are capable of at least 100mph, yet their route is restricted to 75 at most. So vehicles' capabilities can be wasted quite easily.

Agreed. Especially as the DMUs replaced in Lancashire include 125mph 180s on "all stops" services from Manchester to Blackpool.

Few units get near their top speed in "day to day" service.

 

[Aictos]

The last article in RAIL that I read allured to the fact that the DfT had one option available which was keeping the 365s on the Great Northern when the Thameslink programme is completed.

I don't know what's happening regarding the 313s but it appeared that the trains currently in operation which are certainly going are the 319s and 377/5s, no idea where the 321s and 317s will go.

I like the idea of 379s though seeing as FCC serve two busy airports not one but they need to order enough to be able to cascade the 319 fleet but also introduce regular 12 car services

 

[RobShipway]

Even if it is not a class 379, bombardier need to be delivering something similar to it if they win the bid because as you say Ajax, FCC serves major two airports, not just one.

 

[Class377/5]

Thameslink order announcement was due this week, now probably next week, maybe not till May (don't you love certainty!)

The bidders are Bombardier with an all new unit, and the Siemens Desiro 'City'. So it won't be a Class 379, or son of.

The spec sees fixed formation 12 cars (and fixed formation 8 car); the 12 car has roughly the same number of seats as an 8 car 319. So lots more space for standing.

Where did you see that a 12 car NXEMU will have the same seating as an 8 car 319? As at the moment the specific specs are not in the public domain until the order has been placed so this isn't offical or if it is its not public yet.

Don't hold your breath. Offical announcement on who gets the final order can be expected as from this week but that doesn't mean it will be. Looking more like late April/early May before we heard anything. Also the signing of the contracts for the NXEMU isn't due until December so until Christmas we won't be 100% sure until the inks drying on the page.

Bombardier are offering the Electrostar mkII which is a is a mix of all the best bits of their products currently in service. Even Bombardier have stated its a follow on from the Electrostar model and been 'improved' on to create the Adventre. Siemens are offering the Desiro UK mk II, aka Desiro City.

The 377/5s will be available to strengthen all sorts of SN services - don't forget there are all the platform lengthening projects going on in parallel to Thameslink. Internally they have the longer distance layout though, so may not necessarily be used on Metro services. Then certain SN (and SE) existing routes will be transferred to Thameslink as well for KO2.

Basically the 377/5 along with the 377/3 will be used to greated more 10 car services on the Southern Metro section which may free up some 455's but its more a case of longer trains than more services. Tho Im not upto speed with their plans.

The planned work for the 377/5 post FCC mean that they won't be on any future KO2 routes as its all Metro work where as TLP routes are mainly long distance services.

Has anyone calculated how many units will be "freed" by Thameslink/Crossrail (plus IEP on the Cambridge "fasts")?

Presumably all the FCC units (317, 319, 321, 365, 377) apart from the 313s (which stay on Moorgate)... the NXEA 315s... the Heathrow Connect 360s...

I presume that's a few hundred?

Do you reckon the 23x 377/5s will go to Southern for the Blackfriars - Wimbiedon/Sutton service?

Also, are the 442s off elsewhere?

I will say this again the 317, 321 and 365 are not going to be released by the NXEMU. There may be a few more spare units around but the current planning for train numbers is based on FCC losing no trains apart from the 319 and 377's.

As for the 377/5, if we see them on the loop it'll be a surprise. Remember that its a franchise commitment to bring 10 operations to the Southern Metro lines (this doesn't include the Wimbledon line) so if Southern do take over the loop and use the 377/5 they break a franchise agreement. (OK this can be changed with agreement if the Government want).

Note as well that the TLP only benefits for the loop is getting new trains so if they went to 377/5 it'll actually be a backwards step. Why get 5yr trains when you can have new?

Also note the line from Loughborough junction will require NXEMU's from 2018 as Loughborough Junction to Kentish Town is part of the Core resignalling. While the borders haven't been set, automatic train operation will be happening from Elephant and London Bridge northwards.

 

[tbtc]

I will say this again the 317, 321 and 365 are not going to be released by the NXEMU. There may be a few more spare units around but the current planning for train numbers is based on FCC losing no trains apart from the 319 and 377's

My understanding was that

• The four "semi fast" services each hour from KX (two to Cambridge, two to Peterborough) would be going through the Thameslink tunnel, and so be NXEMU routes
  
• The two "fast" Cambridge services would still run from KX, and be nothing to do with Thameslink (to go to IEP, longer term)
  
• The Moorgate service will stay in the hands of 313s for the forseeable future

Whilst I could see the 365s being kept for the "fast" Cambridge services, what would the 317/321s do? By my logic they'd be freed up. I appreciate that some of this is guesswork/ rumours/ plans (which are subject to change).

 

[Blindtraveler]

think its a pitty the 442s are 3rd rail with 2nd hand motors, ideal for scotland manchester in terms of cumfort!

 

[Bald Rick]

Where did you see that a 12 car NXEMU will have the same seating as an 8 car 319? As at the moment the specific specs are not in the public domain until the order has been placed so this isn't offical or if it is its not public yet.

Officially, and in the public domain, Modern Railways Dec 2009 provides all the data - a 12 car fixed formation Aventra has 620 seats.

This compares to an 8 car 319 which has approx 600 seats depending on sub class.

Unofficially, this has also been confirmed by someone in FCC who knows his onions, and independently by someone from one of the bidders I sat next to at lunch today.

Personally, the new trains can't come soon enough. Yet again today I had to clamber over numerous suitcases (and a punter) to get out of a 319 because of the quite unsuitable layout these trains have for airport + commuter traffic.