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Future EMU Cascades

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WatcherZero

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Your right theres a good strategic case for it, unfortunatley in practical terms its a little harder. The Southport DMU services would have to go via Atherton unless you wanted two sets of terminators, that then faces the issue theyve been struggling with that the services from Southport are full before they reach the Atherton line and they cant put on more services because of the signalling, if you wanted to run longer than 2x2 DMU on the Atherton line you would have to lengthen all the platforms (probably not too hard as many have just been shortened with those wooden fences) but then that would be over supply of capacity for the Wigan-Southport stretch which would require 2/3 car max. So electrification would mean you would have to recast services quite significantly.

Between 07:30 and 09:30 there are 10 trains Manchester-Wigan (plus one extra Wigan NW to Manchester via Bolton in morning peak and reversed in evening peak which im not counting), 5 go via Atherton, 5 via Bolton and of those 10 five continue to Southport of which 3 go via Bolton and 2 via Atherton.
 
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cslusarc

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Anyway, what is the maximum line speed proposed? Is it 100mph? If so, then a subclass of the 380s (or something similar) would definitely fit the requirements. I'd be quite impressed if they could get 37 minutes with 100mph running to be honest.

From what I understand, 100 mph will be the maximum linespeed on the Glasgow to Edinburgh Line via Falkirk High.

I would like to see paired single ended 3-car Class 380 units operate the Interurban service between the two cities where the trains configured as DMSO - PTSO - UNDMCO (A) = UNDMCO (B) - PTSO - DMSO.
UNDMCO would be shorthand for Uncoupling Non Driving Motor Composite Open. It should be able to shunt at low speeds like a LUL Subsurface and Tube stock trainset.
 

MCR247

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From what I understand, 100 mph will be the maximum linespeed on the Glasgow to Edinburgh Line via Falkirk High.

I would like to see paired single ended 3-car Class 380 units operate the Interurban service between the two cities where the trains configured as DMSO - PTSO - UNDMCO (A) = UNDMCO (B) - PTSO - DMSO.
UNDMCO would be shorthand for Uncoupling Non Driving Motor Composite Open. It should be able to shunt at low speeds like a LUL Subsurface and Tube stock trainset.

With the point in that being?
 

starrymarkb

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From what I understand, 100 mph will be the maximum linespeed on the Glasgow to Edinburgh Line via Falkirk High.

I would like to see paired single ended 3-car Class 380 units operate the Interurban service between the two cities where the trains configured as DMSO - PTSO - UNDMCO (A) = UNDMCO (B) - PTSO - DMSO.
UNDMCO would be shorthand for Uncoupling Non Driving Motor Composite Open. It should be able to shunt at low speeds like a LUL Subsurface and Tube stock trainset.

Why build as halfsets? you might as well build as 6 car unts, which would allow you to have a 25kV power bus (therefore only requiring a single pan to be raised) Also given that most depots can lift a whole unit now without splitting the uncoupling would be extra complication. I guess your thinking is that with halfsets if one half is faulty you can shunt on another half set. But what if the spare is facing the same way as the good set? That would be just as big a SNARFU as having a 6 car out of action, unless you can turn half sets some how, and I can't see the cabinet controls being allowed on the mainline
 

Blindtraveler

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whatever comes for the edinburgh glasgow, 6 coaches at all times is a must! If they can beat that journeytime down then many, coleegs of mine for example will nolonger drive which they do at present as they dont see 50 minutes on something overcrouded that stops 3 times plus as worth it! however, 37 mins makes it far more attractive!
 

tbtc

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Hmm. An idea (For you to ridicule)...

The 26 LM 323s would be sufficient to run all the newly electrified routes in Lancashire (apart from the TPE Scottish service, which may get "express" units, and the Barrow line which I see cut at Lancaster/Preston). This would give Northern a common fleet of EMUs (43x 323) to run existing and new routes, and three car units would be okay to double up on the services discussed previously. Also allows scope for "through" routes (Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester - Liverpool, Crewe - Airport - Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool) easier (less problem diagramming a common fleet).

With me so far?

360s are similar to LM's 350s (though without corridor connections). If you rejigged the 360 fleet (post Crossrail) you could have 16x 3 car 360s and 10x 6 car 360s (with one coach spare). That'd give LM additional capacity for their West Midlands routes, and much more in common with the existing 350 fleet. Six car 360s would fit in on the Cross City line (which is often doubled up).

Would a six coach unit need two pantographs? AIUI the five coach 360s make do with one?
 

ukrob

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Hmm. An idea (For you to ridicule)...

The 26 LM 323s would be sufficient to run all the newly electrified routes in Lancashire (apart from the TPE Scottish service, which may get "express" units, and the Barrow line which I see cut at Lancaster/Preston). This would give Northern a common fleet of EMUs (43x 323) to run existing and new routes, and three car units would be okay to double up on the services discussed previously. Also allows scope for "through" routes (Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester - Liverpool, Crewe - Airport - Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool) easier (less problem diagramming a common fleet).

But as I have already said, that would result in a decrease in capacity on some services which currently run as four car where platforms can not take six.
 

Blindtraveler

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makes sense to me. As to short platforms, there is going for many years yet to be platform work needed nationwide, and SDO Could also be fitted to units. As for the manchester scotland, have said many times before TPE are running 3, or 6 if lucky coach sets on these and overcrouding is a biggy. A 350 varient as currently proposed only solves 1 out of the several issues on the run, diesals under wires. TPE acknoledge the overcrouding but fail to even compensate for it e.g onboard crew make little or no effort to appologise and customer relations aint bothered, in my experience. This is an intercity service which deserves intercity speed and journeytimes on appropriate trains. a 6 or 7 car 390 type unit is urgently needed here. Leaving things largely as they are and swapping 185s for an almost identicle design but with a panto means we're gunna be standing all the way to blackpool, or at least preston for many many bank holidays yet.
 

ukrob

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makes sense to me. As to short platforms, there is going for many years yet to be platform work needed nationwide, and SDO Could also be fitted to units.

I agree they are not problems with can not be overcome - but they are obstacles which needn't be there to start with. I also can't see in the plan were 80+ class 319s are going to go - they aren't mentioned?
 

tbtc

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I also can't see in the plan were 80+ class 319s are going to go - they aren't mentioned?

There are more 319s (eight six) than needed for both the Thames Valley and Lancashire electrifications, unless every service is to be eight car.

If Thameslink isn't going onto the Great Northern lines (and IEP not going to Cambridge) then you could keep all 319s at FCC and release the 319/321/365s elsewhere. Or (post Crossrail) the 319s would be about enough to replace all remaining older NXEA EMUs (315/319/321, maybe even 360), leaving only the 379s and Crossrail units. Okay, these are just examples off the top of my head, but I doubt it'll be as simple as just "319s to Lancashire/ Thames Valley".

Also worth bearing in mind the "dual" nature of these EMUs, they could end up south of the Thames instead...
 

Aictos

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The traditional turnback point was New Barnet, right through to electrification, mostly because the line was double track through the Hadley tunnels before the 1950s. N2s used to run into the down slow (I think) to run round and head back. Despite quadrupling, this continued right up until the line was electrified in the 70s, when they built the Welwyn flyover.



That would be nice. 313s ran alongside Deltics (literally in some cases) and so they have seen two new generations of East Coast traction. It's high time we had something new, and 378s are certainly tunnel compatible. Only question is whether they should be 2X3-car or 6-car. The higher speed would not see much use, but would give better recovery margins between stops, so I'd imagine it would be useful. The toilets would be good for the longer runs to Letchworth, which take up to an hour.

Other useful things would be four-aspect signalling on the Hertford Loop, 100 mph running for diverted trains, loops at Gordon Hill, full loops rather than just a turnback at Hertford North, or at least a second turnback, lookps at Letchworth and ideally a passenger connection from Canonbury and the ELL. Even better would be rebuilding of the Palace Gates branch so that Hertford Loop freight can run to Stratford without going via Finsbury Park.

As for EMU cascades, new outer-suburban stock would make the Networkers available for elsewhere, either a West Yorkshire electrification or the Paddington suburban routes. If we're having 378s, then how about a load of 379s? Best make it enough for twelve-car services in the peak.

1. ) If 378s with the specification I discussed above were to replace the 313s then rather then being restricted to 3 car trains as they are at the moment, I'm of the belief that they ought to be 6 car trains but enough ought to be ordered to be able to run all existing services as 6 car trains and also introduce more services.

2.) I believe the Hertford Loop already has 4 aspect signalling but only between London and Crews Hill, it's 3 aspect signalling the rest of the line but as to your point on the 4 aspects, yes that would be good but what would be better is if Network Rail shorten some of the signalling sections as the signalling sections between Langley Junction and Hertford are far too long as a result, diverted services often are right up each other's behinds.

3.) 100mph, well I would be happy with increasing the freight linespeeds to allow freights to run at 75mph the whole length of the line but feel 80mph is more reasonable then 100mph.

4.) By resignalling Gordon Hill, reinstating Platform 4 and carrying out the trackwork needed, you could loop services at Gordon Hill.

5.) Hertford North was actually designed to take 4 platforms, the unused platform face on the opposite side of Platform 1 is hidden by overgrowth.
I rather a 8 car headshunt was put in running from the Up Yard along the old platform face which would mean not having to block the main lines for periods of time when having to shunt trains.

6.) Equally they could rebuilt the road bridge and do the same work at Hertford that they could do at Gordon Hill.

7.) Seeing as FCC already has experience with 377s, it would make sense to order enough to run a lot more 12 car services instead of bidding with the NXEMUs after all, having two fleets of 377/5s and 378s would be much more effective operationally, both fleets would be dual voltage capable with the 378s on Inners and 377s on the Outers.

I know the 379s are the last of the Electrostar build but surely it would be more value for money to go for a tried and tested design after all, it's not like we're discussing a 70s or 80s design but rather a 00s design which is far newer.

8.) I wouldn't say no to having the 365s on the Oxfords, :)
 

Fred26

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I can't see the point in permanent six-car trains along the Hertford Loop. I think the option should be there for all trains to be six-cars, but I think to have it permanently would be OTT.

As for the signaling, I'm a firm believer that on metro routes the signals should be placed as close together as is possible so as to get as many trains on said route. This would also be beneficial for diversions (obviously they'd be slow, but diversions aren't supposed to be fast, they're just supposed to get there).

Again on the train formations - if some stations on the loop could be extended to 9-car platforms, a 3x3-car train could run into Kings Cross.
 

Aictos

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I can't see the point in permanent six-car trains along the Hertford Loop. I think the option should be there for all trains to be six-cars, but I think to have it permanently would be OTT.

You misunderstand me, I meant for the 6 car units to be used on all Inners regardless of if they're Stevenage's, Hertford's, Welwyn's etc...
 

Aictos

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Yeah, but permanently six-cars?

Operation Princess and Introduction of the Voyagers/Super Voyagers?, rather we had a extra coach or two then regret it later.

Although ideally the DfT could order 4 car 378s but seeing as they would be expected to go into Moorgate wouldn't that mean less seats then the existing 6 car 313s as they would only be able to run as 4 cars.
 

Ivo

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Hmm. An idea (For you to ridicule)...

The 26 LM 323s would be sufficient to run all the newly electrified routes in Lancashire (apart from the TPE Scottish service, which may get "express" units, and the Barrow line which I see cut at Lancaster/Preston). This would give Northern a common fleet of EMUs (43x 323) to run existing and new routes, and three car units would be okay to double up on the services discussed previously. Also allows scope for "through" routes (Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester - Liverpool, Crewe - Airport - Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool) easier (less problem diagramming a common fleet).

With me so far?

360s are similar to LM's 350s (though without corridor connections). If you rejigged the 360 fleet (post Crossrail) you could have 16x 3 car 360s and 10x 6 car 360s (with one coach spare). That'd give LM additional capacity for their West Midlands routes, and much more in common with the existing 350 fleet. Six car 360s would fit in on the Cross City line (which is often doubled up).

Would a six coach unit need two pantographs? AIUI the five coach 360s make do with one?

A fair idea, but there is a specific problem. Such an idea would leave the GEML with almost nothing! The 315s would be lost (to Cardiff, as suggested before? - please, no...), to be replaced by the NXEMU; the 360s would go to the Midlands. What then happens to trains through Colchester? Would they then be replaced by a different kind of NXEMU, or another cascade from elsewhere? Realistically, only the 365s would make ideal replacements of all existing stock, and there won't be anywhere near enough of them freed up by the Thameslink Programme.

Alternatively, could the 319s go to Northern, and then their 323s go south to Brum to operate on the Snow Hill Line? Or are there likely to be any problems (either economically or structurally) in electrifying it?

I can't answer the pantograph question, other than to say this - how many do Pendos use?
 

LE Greys

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A fair idea, but there is a specific problem. Such an idea would leave the GEML with almost nothing! The 315s would be lost (to Cardiff, as suggested before? - please, no...), to be replaced by the NXEMU; the 360s would go to the Midlands. What then happens to trains through Colchester? Would they then be replaced by a different kind of NXEMU, or another cascade from elsewhere? Realistically, only the 365s would make ideal replacements of all existing stock, and there won't be anywhere near enough of them freed up by the Thameslink Programme.

Alternatively, could the 319s go to Northern, and then their 323s go south to Brum to operate on the Snow Hill Line? Or are there likely to be any problems (either economically or structurally) in electrifying it?

Really, the 315s should be lost in the general direction of the srapyard, they are getting to the razor blade fodder stage, and whatever replaces them should also go to Cardiff and anywhere else we need new inner-suburban EMUs. I would replace all other current units with loads and loads of 379s, possibly making the 315 replacement another form of 378. The 317s are still decent units, despite their age, and that goes for the 321s as well. 317s also happen to be very similar to 318s, so it might be a good idea to concentrate them all in the same place, but then 321s are fairly similar as well. One option for the 321s is the West Midlands, moving the 321s to Northern, or possibly the other way round. The West Riding would be another option, thus getting rid of a lot of Pacers, but would need loads of electrification.

I can't answer the pantograph question, other than to say this - how many do Pendos use?

One at a time, AIUI.
 

tbtc

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A fair idea, but there is a specific problem. Such an idea would leave the GEML with almost nothing! The 315s would be lost (to Cardiff, as suggested before? - please, no...), to be replaced by the NXEMU; the 360s would go to the Midlands. What then happens to trains through Colchester? Would they then be replaced by a different kind of NXEMU, or another cascade from elsewhere? Realistically, only the 365s would make ideal replacements of all existing stock, and there won't be anywhere near enough of them freed up by the Thameslink Programme.

Alternatively, could the 319s go to Northern, and then their 323s go south to Brum to operate on the Snow Hill Line? Or are there likely to be any problems (either economically or structurally) in electrifying it?

I can't answer the pantograph question, other than to say this - how many do Pendos use?

My idea was as follows:

379s replace 317s which temporarily replace WA 315s
NXEMUs on Crossrail replace Shenfield 315s
86x 319s replace 81x 317/360s
360s to Birmingham
(317s to Glasgow to replace the 314/318/320s etc?)

This leaves NXEA with three EMU fleets - the 319s (WA locals, Essex, Colchester etc), 321s (Essex, Colchester etc) and the 379s (Stansted, Cambridge). Much simpler with just three, compared to the five now.

Not sure about Cardiff needing any EMUs - the only routes that we know are getting wired there are the longer distance ones with IEP (?)
 

Ivo

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I honestly don't believe that would go down very well.

When the 360s were new they were advertised in FGE timetables as "our new air-conditioned 100mph Class 360 trains". People took to them very well, as has the average Essex enthusiast (me not being average; I think they too are decidedly average). To replace them with 319s, which on the inside are so similar to 321s that people would think that they the exact same "rubbish" they used to have (alternating with 312s), would not make NXEA very popular. If anything, I think a new-build of 350s would be more suitable, and then displace the 321s to the north.

It is a good idea, but to the locals it would be a step back. "Why should we get those things that run to Southend*? Our new trains are much better!"

*Incorrect, of course, but on the inside the difference isn't that obvious besides the seating.
 
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northwichcat

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Class 323. I’ve seen a few plans/ suggestions to put these all together, either all moving to Lancashire or all moving to Birmingham. The 26 LM units should be enough to provide EMUs on the Liverpool/Manchester/Blackpool services (around fifteen trains a day, based on current service patterns and single units being used – a 323 is around twice the size of a 142). However, as lm321412 pointed out, LM would be better with something three coaches long as a replacement (which narrows down potential alternatives).

The 323 cascade was supposed to be TO London Midland FROM Northern. A railway magazine reported it's reversal but it was never officially in any published government documents.
 

tbtc

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I honestly don't believe that would go down very well.

When the 360s were new they were advertised in FGE timetables as "our new air-conditioned 100mph Class 360 trains". People took to them very well, as has the average Essex enthusiast (me not being average; I think they too are decidedly average). To replace them with 319s, which on the inside are so similar to 321s that people would think that they the exact same "rubbish" they used to have (alternating with 312s), would not make NXEA very popular. If anything, I think a new-build of 350s would be more suitable, and then displace the 321s to the north.

It is a good idea, but to the locals it would be a step back. "Why should we get those things that run to Southend*? Our new trains are much better!"

*Incorrect, of course, but on the inside the difference isn't that obvious besides the seating.

I take your point, but 319s are just as fast as 360s.

I'd presume that the 319s will get a proper internal refresh when they leave Thameslink (regardless of where they go)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 323 cascade was supposed to be TO London Midland FROM Northern. A railway magazine reported it's reversal but it was never officially in any published government documents.

Aye, I've heard it both ways round. The 43 units would cover all the local Lancashire routes though, if Northern get a common fleet (and, lets face it, they're not going to get new trains)
 

LE Greys

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I honestly don't believe that would go down very well.

When the 360s were new they were advertised in FGE timetables as "our new air-conditioned 100mph Class 360 trains". People took to them very well, as has the average Essex enthusiast (me not being average; I think they too are decidedly average). To replace them with 319s, which on the inside are so similar to 321s that people would think that they the exact same "rubbish" they used to have (alternating with 312s), would not make NXEA very popular. If anything, I think a new-build of 350s would be more suitable, and then displace the 321s to the north.

It is a good idea, but to the locals it would be a step back. "Why should we get those things that run to Southend*? Our new trains are much better!"

*Incorrect, of course, but on the inside the difference isn't that obvious besides the seating.

From my point of view, the 321s were a step down from the 309s, which were genuine Inter-City passenger stock at the time of introduction, including griddle cars at one point. The 360s are a further step down in my eyes, but that's because I hate all Desiros with a vengeance. They are uncomfortable, overcrowded, have terrible seats and the worst air conditioning I have ever experienced. Nowhere near enough air movement. I've never been on a 379, but if they are anything like a 375 they will have much better air-con, better seats and a much more solid feel to them. That's why I suggested 379s (and to match the Stanstex stock).
 

Bald Rick

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I take your point, but 319s are just as fast as 360s.

Top speed, maybe, downhill with a following wind. But be assurred that in acceleration terms 360s and their cousins knock spots of pretty much everything else.
 

87015

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Top speed, maybe, downhill with a following wind. But be assurred that in acceleration terms 360s and their cousins knock spots of pretty much everything else.

They might have the potential for it, but its pointless as nowhere have (AC anyway) desiros been brought in with accelerated timings over BR EMUs - in fact on the WCML the timetables are now slower than ten years ago for slow and semi-fasts despite the slow lines now being 100mph :roll:

Anything you can gain you'd lose at stations anyway - have to average 45 second stops with 350s, not half minutes 321s etc are capable of.
 

Pumbaa

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The 323 cascade was supposed to be TO London Midland FROM Northern. A railway magazine reported it's reversal but it was never officially in any published government documents.

You mean the OJEU tender from LM for 3-car units and prospective extra capacity?! Admittedly it was never closed, but it was certainly an official document.
 

Blindtraveler

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may I too jump on the anti deziro bandwaggen? I'll go as far as to say the 444s get plenty rite with there intercity interior but not keen on any of the other classes and have a particular hatred for the 185 deezal variant. Give me a turbo/electrostar any day! not yet tried 380s but will do soon when they replace the far superior 322s. I know i specified much earlier in this thread I would order more 350s etc but that was bassed on keeping costs down for the toc in these hard times. i am even a fan of the hated 376s which are a good metro unit and more should have been built!
 

Fred26

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Operation Princess and Introduction of the Voyagers/Super Voyagers?, rather we had a extra coach or two then regret it later.

Although ideally the DfT could order 4 car 378s but seeing as they would be expected to go into Moorgate wouldn't that mean less seats then the existing 6 car 313s as they would only be able to run as 4 cars.

I see what you're saying, but I just think that there is little need for six-car trains to be running on these routes in the middle of the day. I'd ensure there was enough stock to make every service a six-car service, but it needn't be permanent.
 

sprinterguy

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The 323 cascade was supposed to be TO London Midland FROM Northern. A railway magazine reported it's reversal but it was never officially in any published government documents.
The Yorkshire and Humberside RUS makes clear mention to extending many of the West Yorkshire electric services to work in six carriage formation, whilst stating that it would not be possible to extend the current rolling stock (the 333s) to six carriages. Whilst 323s are not mentioned specifically, it seems reasonable to assume that they would be a logical choice for such an expanded service provision, especially as LMs’ 350/3 build for the Cross City line was being mooted during the time the RUS was being developed.

Go to Page 71:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...gies/yorkshire and humber/york&humber_rus.pdf
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Alternatively, could the 319s go to Northern, and then their 323s go south to Brum to operate on the Snow Hill Line? Or are there likely to be any problems (either economically or structurally) in electrifying it?
I’m not sure that Northerns’ seventeen 323s would be able to cover all the Snow Hill line diagrams (Though the fleet size matches up very well to LMs’ sixteen three carriage 150s), and there wouldn’t be the capacity for running in anything other than three carriage formation (There’s a few four carriage, and even one five carriage, 150 diagrams on the Snow Hill lines at the moment) due to a lack of trains and I think there’s a few platform lengths that would be restrictive on running 323s paired up if enough trains were available. Plus there’s the need to justify the cost of electrifying Whitlocks End to Stratford upon Avon for the sake of one train an hour, as well as the fairly low frequency Kidderminster-Worcester section. Maybe it would work if just the core section was electrified for 323 operation, between Stourbridge Junction-Whitlocks End/Dorridge (and possibly Leamington Spa), with 172s (as it would be by the point any electrification came around) operating the services beyond the electrified extremities. There’d be enough 323s for that.

I like the idea of LM having a uniform fleet of 323s for all West Midlands commuter services, but there's a few snagging points.
 
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