Future EMU Cascades

[87015]

Perhaps but assuming Crossrail arrives 'on time' (I can remember a documentary talking about Crossrail opening in the first few years of the 21st century ) the 315s are going to be 37+ years old, even for an EMU that is old. How much more life would they honestly have left in them? Most of the 1st gen 30x series of AC units and quite a number of the slammers served for around 30-40 years and that seems to be the average expected service life an EMU, so honestly how much more could we expect from units like the 315s?

AC traction can last stupidly long - there are some pretty impressively rebuilt kit on the continent that is unrecognisable from what it started out as.

This is a rebuilt Polish 1960s cart, sure 315s and the like could be treated similarily.

 

[me123]

Where did you read that the linespeed was going to be 125mph? If it was Mr Rail Britain, well... that's certainly not what was originally proposed. If you read the EGIP report, you'll note that the time saving by increasing the maximum speed to 125mph is minimal (34 minutes compared to 37 minutes - guess what Network Rail and TS are currently quoting as the fastest time under EGIP... 37 minutes...) and that the cost would be significant due to the amount of realignment and infrastructure upgrades required (the EGIP report actually states that the current alignment isn't suitable for 125mph running).

Ewan

I thought it was 125mph as well as the benefits that electrification would bring? Perhaps I've made it up, or just read the stuff about 125mph running that you've referred to... I can't remember where, but I'm sure I saw it somewhere.

Anyway, what is the maximum line speed proposed? Is it 100mph? If so, then a subclass of the 380s (or something similar) would definitely fit the requirements. I'd be quite impressed if they could get 37 minutes with 100mph running to be honest.

 

[tbtc]

I thought it was 125mph as well as the benefits that electrification would bring? Perhaps I've made it up, or just read the stuff about 125mph running that you've referred to... I can't remember where, but I'm sure I saw it somewhere.

Anyway, what is the maximum line speed proposed? Is it 100mph? If so, then a subclass of the 380s (or something similar) would definitely fit the requirements. I'd be quite impressed if they could get 37 minutes with 100mph running to be honest.

125mph from Edinburgh to Glasgow sounds impressive, but that'd surely eat up paths (given the stoppers at Edinburgh Park/ Linlighgow/ Polmont/ Croy/ Bishopbriggs/ Lenzie...), there can't be much chance to get over 100mph surely?
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Perhaps but assuming Crossrail arrives 'on time' (I can remember a documentary talking about Crossrail opening in the first few years of the 21st century ) the 315s are going to be 37+ years old, even for an EMU that is old. How much more life would they honestly have left in them? Most of the 1st gen 30x series of AC units and quite a number of the slammers served for around 30-40 years and that seems to be the average expected service life an EMU, so honestly how much more could we expect from units like the 315s?

I wonder whether the Slammers would have lasted longer if it wasn't for the doors?

 

[lm321412]

The idea of sending the LM 323s to the North West for the Lancashire electrification, with 319s taking their place in the West Midlands, certainly has legs though. It’s worth bearing in mind that the difference in length between a six carriage 323 and an eight carriage 319 formation is less than you might think: 138 metres for a 6 car 323 versus 160 metres for an 8 car 319: Basically the equivalent of tagging on an extra 323 carriage to the existing six carriage formations. This may reduce the number of West Midlands platforms that need lengthening to handle pairs of 319s.

Very interesting stat regarding length there! Thanks.

There are 86x Class 319s which would mean 26x to London Midland and 50x to First Great Western. Then 26x Class 323s over to the North West as part of their electrification strategy. This means that there will be a common unit fleet among the LM and NR fleets and enough 319s for FGW to cope.

I don't think it would be too much of a retrograde step considering how 377s replaced 313s recently over the Brighton area. Tbh, If they are refurbished with air con and to the high spec that has been speculated, then probably would look better than the 323s currently do internally.

I would like this to happen, but I very much doubt it would!

 

[ukrob]

However using 1x323 is a reduction of 2xDMU units on many peak services in the north west which can not take anything longer than four coaches.

 

[tbtc]

However using 1x323 is a reduction of 2xDMU units on many peak services in the north west which can not take anything longer than four coaches.

No worse than two Pacers tbf.

Which platforms on the (soon to be) electrified lines in Lancashire have platform restrictions?

 

[ukrob]

No worse than two Pacers tbf.

Which platforms on the (soon to be) electrified lines in Lancashire have platform restrictions?

Almost all of them between Liverpool and Manchester could not take six carriages, I don't know about the rest of the lines.

'no worse than two Pacers' is pretty irrelevant. This is about increasing capacity not 'making do'.

 

[Bald Rick]

315s and 320s

315s and 320s could in theory, be used somewhere like the Valley Lines, if it was ever electrified (which it probably wouldn't be).

Naturally though, this is largely fantasy!

Spot on.

Reliably informed that the business case for Valley line electrification is based on refurbed Class 315s being reformed as 3car units. This a stopgap for 5-10 years until they are gracefully retired. That's why the case is so good: cheap trains, shared cost of power supply with GWML electrification, and it avoids the cost of replacing the existing diesel fleet like for like.

 

[lm321412]

Spot on.

Reliably informed that the business case for Valley line electrification is based on refurbed Class 315s being reformed as 3car units. This a stopgap for 5-10 years until they are gracefully retired. That's why the case is so good: cheap trains, shared cost of power supply with GWML electrification, and it avoids the cost of replacing the existing diesel fleet like for like.

Definately would still have some years left in them until the economy improves and new EMUs are built for the Valleys. I think it would make the Valley Electrification viable and make sense considering GWML electrification is looming!

 

[WatcherZero]

If they removed the TSO to reduce them to three car I imagine they would accelerate like a bat out of hell.

 

[A0]

There are no plans to transfer any more services to TfL/LO. I challenge you to find an up to date online report referring to this.

Yes, I agree.

It also doesn't make much sense to transfer the GN inner services to another operator.

The Watford service made complete sense as it runs as a self-contained service using it's own infrastructure, completely separate from the 'outer suburban' services on the WCML.

On the GN this is not the case as the tracks are shared with the outer-suburban services, as are all the stations etc.

There's also the small matter of the inner suburban services running as far as Letchworth - not sure TFL's reach should get that far out of London.

 

[Class377/5]

Yes, I agree.

It also doesn't make much sense to transfer the GN inner services to another operator.

The Watford service made complete sense as it runs as a self-contained service using it's own infrastructure, completely separate from the 'outer suburban' services on the WCML.

On the GN this is not the case as the tracks are shared with the outer-suburban services, as are all the stations etc.

There's also the small matter of the inner suburban services running as far as Letchworth - not sure TFL's reach should get that far out of London.

TfL reach already extends beyond London. Any service that comes into London can be affected by the Mayor. And Watford is well outside London. Why not Hertford Loop services.

But Cambridge Slow are supposed to go over to Thameslink/NXEMU are they not? The idea being that fasts and and Kings Lynn services (which are extended fasts) still operate from Kings Cross, with IEP, and slow/semi fast go through the tunnel and out into 3rd rail land. Same for Peterborough services, with Hertford and Welywn potentially going TfL/Overground using whatever replaces the 313s (378s being current favourite)

The idea is more services will be lengthed. There was a list of stations to be extended on the GN side as part of TLP KO2. Idea is the current trains won't be replaced but just less short trains.

As for replacement stocks, a 378-a-like is mentioned but as the 379's are the last Electrostars to be built any future stock will be the NXEMU with Tube seating. A 378 mkII (or if your really picky like me a 376 mkIII).

There are no plans to transfer any more services to TfL/LO. I challenge you to find an up to date online report referring to this.

There isn't anything offical yet as there little point where disscusions are on going.

 

[paulravuslante]

Class 332. Would be nice to see these at a “real” TOC (the 333s are great machines), but presumably they’ll be on Heathrow Express duties for a long time…

True, as HEx are planning a refurbishment of all units. Not sure I about the real TOC comment. It seems to be a shame when a TOC that owns the units it operates (rather than leasing them from a third party) is not deemed a real TOC.

Class 360. The five Heathrow Connect units (plus the one HEX “shuttle”?) will be spare when Crossrail opens. Logistically a class of five or six will be too small for most other TOCs to bother with so I expect these will end up at NXEA with their twenty one 360s (albeit the Heathrow ones are a coach longer). Could these be converted into 350s (with corridor connections)?

It's four Connect units and one HEx branded unit (360201 to 360205). No idea who will end up with these. BAA own them so they could do with them how they see fit (if AirTrack ever goes ahead). They could sell them to Thai State Railways, which would probably be easier than getting them converted. More than likely they'll end up at NXEA.

 

[Blindtraveler]

will there definately be no further electrostar units of any type? Have bombardia said they wil no longer produce this type of unit? had often thought a variant of this would work on somewhere like edinburgh glasgow when wires go up as the route is already cleared for turbos. Anyone know what we can expect in the 332 refurb? Is it just seat covers and carpets or a bit more?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No worse than two Pacers tbf.

Which platforms on the (soon to be) electrified lines in Lancashire have platform restrictions?

However using 1x323 is a reduction of 2xDMU units on many peak services in the north west which can not take anything longer than four coaches.

Almost all of them between Liverpool and Manchester could not take six carriages, I don't know about the rest of the lines.

'no worse than two Pacers' is pretty irrelevant. This is about increasing capacity not 'making do'.

Wavertree is definately four coaches only. I think only Eccles and Patricroft are even close to being suitable for 6 coaches or more (maybe Newton-Le-Willows too, but I'm not sure on that one), but even they will require work to bring them upto standard.

150s and 156s form the vast majority of services on the MCV-LIV stoppers and even when 142s do run, they rarely work in pairs on the services, so they are not a good example for capacity comparisons.

 

[paulravuslante]

will there definately be no further electrostar units of any type? Have bombardia said they wil no longer produce this type of unit? had often thought a variant of this would work on somewhere like edinburgh glasgow when wires go up as the route is already cleared for turbos. Anyone know what we can expect in the 332 refurb? Is it just seat covers and carpets or a bit more?

Seat covers and carpets have been replaced as and when required as and when required (but into the same colours as before obviously).
One coach on unit 007 has been sent away to be kitted out in the new scheme. In Express class there will be new seating in a different layout, at seat power sockets, cup holders and digital information displays. First class will have e-leather seats, at seat power sockets and mobile phone charging pads in the tables. The former luggage compartments (which are still disused) will be converted into a standing / perch seating area. The refurbishments are anticipated to be completed by summer 2012.

 

[Aictos]

TfL reach already extends beyond London. Any service that comes into London can be affected by the Mayor. And Watford is well outside London. Why not Hertford Loop services

You could also consider Welwyn Garden City services as well then, as to Watford it's still classed as being inside the London Zones being in Zone 9.

 

[swt_passenger]

You could also consider Welwyn Garden City services as well then, as to Watford it's still classed as being inside the London Zones being in Zone 9.

That's a regular misunderstanding. Watford is not in Zone 9. Yes it is beyond Zone 8, but fares set by LM apply there.

In TfL's fares documentation it is referred to as Zone W, but this is not marked on the tube or London Connections maps. If you look at them carefully you'll see Zone 9 only includes the Met to Amersham and Chesham.

 

[transmanche]

It also doesn't make much sense to transfer the GN inner services to another operator.

The Watford service made complete sense as it runs as a self-contained service using it's own infrastructure, completely separate from the 'outer suburban' services on the WCML.

On the GN this is not the case as the tracks are shared with the outer-suburban services, as are all the stations etc.

There's also the small matter of the inner suburban services running as far as Letchworth - not sure TFL's reach should get that far out of London.

That's assuming the service pattern remains the same. LO could run a Moorgate-Gordon Hill/Potters Bar service. Trains can reverse at Gordon Hill, whilst Potters Bar would require a Welwyn Garden City style flyover and the sacrifice of some car park space to build a new platfom.

 

[Aictos]

That's assuming the service pattern remains the same. LO could run a Moorgate-Gordon Hill/Potters Bar service. Trains can reverse at Gordon Hill, whilst Potters Bar would require a Welwyn Garden City style flyover and the sacrifice of some car park space to build a new platfom.

Interesting but I doubt Potters Bar will have the flyover when it's got the perfectly good pointwork enabling trains to turnback there, I rather any investment is used to improve the poor Cinderella line aka the Hertford line such as trackwork, platform extensions at limited stations, better waiting shelters etc...

Wishful thinking though.....

 

[JKJimar53]

Watford tube station is zone 9, Watford Junction station is zone W. Although i've heard it called zone WJ or just "special fares apply".

 

[swt_passenger]

Watford tube station is zone 9, Watford Junction station is zone W. Although i've heard it called zone WJ or just "special fares apply".

No, in fact Watford Met is in Zone 7. You should really have checked the map before joining in!

However I do take your point that the earlier post didn't specify Watford Junction.

 

[transmanche]

Interesting but I doubt Potters Bar will have the flyover when it's got the perfectly good pointwork enabling trains to turnback there, I rather any investment is used to improve the poor Cinderella line aka the Hertford line such as trackwork, platform extensions at limited stations, better waiting shelters etc...

Wishful thinking though.....

Wouldn't that mean crossing both fast ECML lines in order to reverse there? Hence the suggestion for a flyover. I'm guessing that's the reason why a flyover was built at Welwyn Garden City. ISTR that pre-electrification suburban services terminated at Hatfield and were extended to Welwyn Garden City as I guess it was easier to build a flyover there than at Hatfield.

 

[Aictos]

Wouldn't that mean crossing both fast ECML lines in order to reverse there? Hence the suggestion for a flyover. I'm guessing that's the reason why a flyover was built at Welwyn Garden City. ISTR that pre-electrification suburban services terminated at Hatfield and were extended to Welwyn Garden City as I guess it was easier to build a flyover there than at Hatfield.

Why terminate at Potters Bar though, you might as well extend the workings though to Welwyn GC which would be a much better use of resources.

Anyway, when the 313s do get replaced which they have to as they can't last forever - a 378 type but with 2+2 seating, a higher top speed of 90mph and a toilet would be nice.

 

[Simon Poole]

Some of the EMU's could be useful in the West Midlands, becuase there's some places that the Goverment are looking into to electricy like Rugeley TV to Walsall, Nuneaton to Birmingham via Water Orton and i think Nuneaton to Coventry

Imagen soome of the EMU's that are in the list in London Midland or XC Colours

 

[LE Greys]

The traditional turnback point was New Barnet, right through to electrification, mostly because the line was double track through the Hadley tunnels before the 1950s. N2s used to run into the down slow (I think) to run round and head back. Despite quadrupling, this continued right up until the line was electrified in the 70s, when they built the Welwyn flyover.

Why terminate at Potters Bar though, you might as well extend the workings though to Welwyn GC which would be a much better use of resources.

Anyway, when the 313s do get replaced which they have to as they can't last forever - a 378 type but with 2+2 seating, a higher top speed of 90mph and a toilet would be nice.

That would be nice. 313s ran alongside Deltics (literally in some cases) and so they have seen two new generations of East Coast traction. It's high time we had something new, and 378s are certainly tunnel compatible. Only question is whether they should be 2X3-car or 6-car. The higher speed would not see much use, but would give better recovery margins between stops, so I'd imagine it would be useful. The toilets would be good for the longer runs to Letchworth, which take up to an hour.

Other useful things would be four-aspect signalling on the Hertford Loop, 100 mph running for diverted trains, loops at Gordon Hill, full loops rather than just a turnback at Hertford North, or at least a second turnback, lookps at Letchworth and ideally a passenger connection from Canonbury and the ELL. Even better would be rebuilding of the Palace Gates branch so that Hertford Loop freight can run to Stratford without going via Finsbury Park.

As for EMU cascades, new outer-suburban stock would make the Networkers available for elsewhere, either a West Yorkshire electrification or the Paddington suburban routes. If we're having 378s, then how about a load of 379s? Best make it enough for twelve-car services in the peak.

 

[transmanche]

Why terminate at Potters Bar though

Because TfL probably wouldn't want to operate services any further north than Potters Bar. (In the same way that TfL buses reach Watford Junction and Potters Bar.)

 

[317 forever]

Speaking of potential cascades I believe the 508s used by South Eastern and Silverlink Metro have yet to find a home?

As these class 508s used to run in Merseyside I'd be happy for them to inaugurate the Liverpool-St Helens-Manchester electrification! They could probably not attain the necessary speeds though.

 

[ukrob]

As these class 508s used to run in Merseyside I'd be happy for them to inaugurate the Liverpool-St Helens-Manchester electrification! They could probably not attain the necessary speeds though.

Nor any power as they are third rail only units.

 

[Nym]

On the Bolton side of the Lancs Triangle it will take 6*23m coaches on every platform IIRC, I know for a fact that Piccadilly 13/14, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Bolton, Lostock Parkway, Horwich Parkway, Chorley and Preston can.

I beleive the others on that route can aswell, but I'm still coming back to an old question I keep having, why isn't there wires being strung up via Westhaughton and Hindley to North Western for the Wigan Terminators, ya know, making it 5tph via Bolton electric rather than 2 or 3tph...