Future EMU Cascades

[tbtc]

There have been threads about DMU cascades, quite a few over the months (understandable, given the situation with the 172s, the need to replace Pacers etc).

But less has been said about the EMU situation. There are big NXEMU orders on the way for Thameslink and Crossrail. There will be new electrification (Thames Valley, Lancashire Triangle, Central Belt Scotland).

Okay, some of the stock “spared” by the investment will go to lengthen services to eight/ten/twelve coaches. But what about the rest?

A few comments:

Class 315. On the way out? Crossrail to Shenfield (and cascaded 317s from Stansted) may mean less need for these trains (over thirty years old). Still got more life in them than Pacers though; scrapping 240 coaches of EMU whilst keeping Pacers going would be a shame.

Class 319. Eighty six of these four car trains would be more than enough for both the Thames Valley *and* Lancashire electrifications. Would it make sense to keep them with one TOC though? Will Southern want to keep some for the Blackfriars – Wimbledon service?

Class 320. Whilst I can see the logic in putting the 321s together, and treating 322s as 321s, the 320s are different. Is there anywhere else for these 75mph units?

Class 323. I’ve seen a few plans/ suggestions to put these all together, either all moving to Lancashire or all moving to Birmingham. The 26 LM units should be enough to provide EMUs on the Liverpool/Manchester/Blackpool services (around fifteen trains a day, based on current service patterns and single units being used – a 323 is around twice the size of a 142). However, as lm321412 pointed out, LM would be better with something three coaches long as a replacement (which narrows down potential alternatives).

Class 325. Presumably there’s no scope in taking “spare” Parcel EMUs and converting them into passenger service?

Class 332. Would be nice to see these at a “real” TOC (the 333s are great machines), but presumably they’ll be on Heathrow Express duties for a long time…

Class 350. A 350/3 has been rumoured a few times, but nothing happened (yet).

Class 360. The five Heathrow Connect units (plus the one HEX “shuttle”?) will be spare when Crossrail opens. Logistically a class of five or six will be too small for most other TOCs to bother with so I expect these will end up at NXEA with their twenty one 360s (albeit the Heathrow ones are a coach longer). Could these be converted into 350s (with corridor connections)?

Class 365. I quite liked the idea of these moving to the Thames Valley alongside their Networker cousins, I think they’d be great on the London – Oxford services (etc)

Class 380. I thought there’d be dozens more of these in Scotland in a few years time (with the need for electrification to Dunblane etc). However, teething problems may make this less likely.

Has anyone tried to come up with a (potential) EMU cascade to rival some of the complicated DMU cascades?

 

[MCR247]

Class 380. I thought there’d be dozens more of these in Scotland in a few years time (with the need for electrification to Dunblane etc). However, teething problems may make this less likely.

Why? Teething problems are problems encountered with the first units. Therefore this should make them want to order more 380s as any other unit would probably have its own teething problems. For examples, 350/1s may have had teething problems (I have no idea) but I'm pretty sure /2s didn't, except them being awkward when coupling to /1s

 

[387star]

Okay this might sound daft but could old stock like the 315s be fitted with a non-electrical power source and replace pacers etc? Obviously they would be reformed to two or three coaches.. Any chance? :P Prefer this to a tram 'train'!

 

[class156]

Class 320. Whilst I can see the logic in putting the 321s together, and treating 322s as 321s, the 320s are different. Is there anywhere else for these 75mph units?

The 320s are in the process of being refurbished and being upgraded to allow them to operate at 90mph.

 

[ainsworth74]

Okay this might sound daft but could old stock like the 315s be fitted with a non-electrical power source and replace pacers etc? Obviously they would be reformed to two or three coaches.. Any chance?

Technically probably. But any chance? No none at all. It would be a very very expensive conversion on stock that was 30 years old already so you would get little extra life out of it. It would be a completely crazy decision to spend money on something like this instead of new build stock.

 

[387star]

Sorry I was just wondering how the tram-trains are run and imagining which forms of power might be avaliable. Never mind!

 

[lm321412]

315s and 320s

315s and 320s could in theory, be used somewhere like the Valley Lines, if it was ever electrified (which it probably wouldn't be).

321s and 322s

I think the 322s (5 units) could be transferred over to Northern Rail for use on the WYPTE services. Then 321901 - 321903 would be sent over to NXEA. This meaning, both TOCs gain units as the 322s havent ran for NXEA for years.

323s

Now, all 26x Class 323s could move over to Northern Rail, as part of the electrification of the North West and to keep a common fleet of EMUs running around the North West.

Ideally, A new fleet of Units (Desiro City?) could be built to operate services around Birmingham. However, if enough lengthening of the platforms were done and could be done. Class 319 EMUs could operate the Birmingham Commuter services. 100mph running isn't really needed, but the 8 coach lengths could help this busy line during the peaks. I dont think there are any 8 coach formations on the Manchester - Liverpool commuter line and there is probably currently some statios that cannot fit them in (same as Cross City).


Naturally though, this is largely fantasy!

 

[Anvil1984]

Technically probably. But any chance? No none at all. It would be a very very expensive conversion on stock that was 30 years old already so you would get little extra life out of it. It would be a completely crazy decision to spend money on something like this instead of new build stock.

Or throw up some OHLE somewhere, put some toilets in them and use them on stopping services, some passengers won't tell the diffenece between them and 150s. I'm surprised that wasn't included in the Olympic plans because having 30 odd year old year trains going through Stratford isnt best impression, I'd have got more of the Electostars to cascade other units on NXEA suburban services

 

[387star]

Yes given Birmingham is the second largest city AFAIK it would make sense to deploy ex-London stock there!

 

[Blindtraveler]

well i'm no expert but i'll have a go. My theories are based on funds for new units being limitted and also on keeping maintainence costs down

Heathrow express - at its launch it was new and cutting edge. It wil stay that0way by ordering new units. Design unknown.332s to be refurbished and cascaded to northern to work alongside 333s meaning all electric services run as such
.class 315s stay put til retirement on largely same runs.

some 317s move to scotland to keep there similar 318 mates company and the fleat work dunblane, cumbernald and other similar runs.

319s split 3 with manchester, for new electric runs, fcc great northern sector for 365 replacement as they could move to thamds vally and Scotland, opperating argyle and north clyde and cathcart runs with the 320s which aint again too different and wil emerge from refurb at Doncaster as 90mph units. Tìs wil allow 314s to be retired by 2016.

place order for 350/3s and small number of 380s for birmingham cross city and edinburgh-falkirk-glasgow respectively. The /3s will allow transfer of 323s to northern in manchester.

What remains of spare 321s to eastanglia and allocate 322s to northern for use with there 321s.

Order small fleat of duel voltage electro star units to replace 313s on moorgate runs and transfer to london overground opperations

465/6 stay where they are til replacement.

Why? Teething problems are problems encountered with the first units. Therefore this should make them want to order more 380s as any other unit would probably have its own teething problems. For examples, 350/1s may have had teething problems (I have no idea) but I'm pretty sure /2s didn't, except them being awkward when coupling to /1s

 

[387star]

Speaking of potential cascades I believe the 508s used by South Eastern and Silverlink Metro have yet to find a home?

 

[lm321412]

Speaking of potential cascades I believe the 508s used by South Eastern and Silverlink Metro have yet to find a home?

South Eastern 508s probably won't. Barely anywhere for them to go and some of them are in exceptionally poor condition.

Silverlink 508s. Not done any miles for a long while, unsure if they will return or not. Only one possible place for them to go really and that is Merseyrail. They may want them, they may not.

 

[MCR247]

Merseyrail refused them before so...

 

[Class377/5]

Class 365. I quite liked the idea of these moving to the Thames Valley alongside their Networker cousins, I think they’d be great on the London – Oxford services (etc)

The Class 365 are going nowhere, they are likely to live out there lives on the GN route. The Thameslink NXEMU's do not replace these units at all.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I can't see many of the 70s and 80s units being cascaded, they are already getting on for or more than 30 years old, and there are no current plans to replace them. The 313s, 314s, 315s particularly I can see stopping where they are until scrap, other than perhaps some small moves. Unlikely they themselves will be replaced by cascades either, as they have great acceleration compared to similar outer suburban EMUs like 317s and 321s, which would not keep to time.

 

[WatcherZero]

Merseyrail refused them before so...

They refused them when they thought they were imminently getting a new build didnt they? thats looking a lot longer off now.

 

[fgwrich]

Class 325. Presumably there’s no scope in taking “spare” Parcel EMUs and converting them into passenger service?

Class 332. Would be nice to see these at a “real” TOC (the 333s are great machines), but presumably they’ll be on Heathrow Express duties for a long time…


Class 365. I quite liked the idea of these moving to the Thames Valley alongside their Networker cousins, I think they’d be great on the London – Oxford services (etc)

Im pretty sure that the 325s were built by BR with the idea of future passenger use in mind - replace the doors, build an interior and cut out the windows - and you can virtually create a fairly new EMU out of it...

As for the 332s, Seeing as i believe there owned by BAA, then i doubt we'll ever see them moving TOCs - Though ill admit, i really love to see more of them constructed for services in this country! They really are brilliant units from CAF / Siemens! (In fact, as the bodyshells still in production, seems theoretically possible!)

365 - Same here, Personally, id rather have the 365s service the future electrified areas of the Great Western than the 319s - Partly for a more common Networker Type fleet, and partly because as a replacement for the similar 165/166s - I know id prefer a 365 to a 319!

The Class 365 are going nowhere, they are likely to live out there lives on the GN route. The Thameslink NXEMU's do not replace these units at all.

Ah, but then again there's always the IEP Cambridge proposals...

 

[MCR247]

The 313s, 314s, 315s particularly I can see stopping where they are until scrap, other than perhaps some small moves. Unlikely they themselves will be replaced by cascades either, as they have great acceleration compared to similar outer suburban EMUs like 317s and 321s, which would not keep to time.

Crossrail? Should displace almost half of them?

 

[jopsuk]

Surely by the time Crossrail is finished the 315s WILL be ready for scrap? They're thirty years old. Current projection is that Corssrail will start running in 2018, when they'll be 37/38 years old.

If the Cambridge-Kings Cross fasts do go to "commuter" IEP, then that would certainly displace the 365s which should still have plenty of life left in them- but surely Oxford, which is already 125mph for most of its route, should have similarly fast express commuter units?

 

[sprinterguy]

Class 323. I’ve seen a few plans/ suggestions to put these all together, either all moving to Lancashire or all moving to Birmingham. The 26 LM units should be enough to provide EMUs on the Liverpool/Manchester/Blackpool services (around fifteen trains a day, based on current service patterns and single units being used – a 323 is around twice the size of a 142). However, as lm321412 pointed out, LM would be better with something three coaches long as a replacement (which narrows down potential alternatives).

Class 332. Would be nice to see these at a “real” TOC (the 333s are great machines), but presumably they’ll be on Heathrow Express duties for a long time…

The original intention behind sending Birminghams’ 323s to Northern was to replace the 333s on West Yorkshire services, working in six carriage formation as some of the platforms on the West Yorkshire electric routes can’t handle eight carriage trains. WYPTE were, understandably, less than enthusiastic about having their shiny 333s replaced by older stock when it took so long to get hold of new trains in the first place. The idea of sending the LM 323s to the North West for the Lancashire electrification, with 319s taking their place in the West Midlands, certainly has legs though. It’s worth bearing in mind that the difference in length between a six carriage 323 and an eight carriage 319 formation is less than you might think: 138 metres for a 6 car 323 versus 160 metres for an 8 car 319: Basically the equivalent of tagging on an extra 323 carriage to the existing six carriage formations. This may reduce the number of West Midlands platforms that need lengthening to handle pairs of 319s.

There are a couple of problems I can foresee though: It’s a bit of a retrograde step to replace LMs’ excellent 323s with (admittedly longer) trains six or seven years their vintage. Also, during the off peak, many of the current 323 workings carry around a lot of empty seats, even on the popular Cross-city line, so whilst four and eight carriage 319s would definitely be a boon during the busy peak hours, they would probably offer a gross overprovision of seating off peak. Despite these problems, it would still be a more logical course of action than the North West 323s being sent to the West Midlands: Giving LM all the North West 323s would allow the doubling up of all the Cross city line diagrams and then some (The Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Walsall services would be next on my list for lengthening), which would also be a gross overprovision of capacity and give a lot of slack in the fleet. The only way it would work would be if the Chase line was electrified which could utilise a few more 323s (and free up a few 170s), but given that the off peak frequency on this line has recently been halved to hourly and the subsidy cut, I can’t see such a scheme being forthcoming.

In the future, I’d like to see the 332s moving to Yorkshire to join the 333s if it was possible, although this would require Network Rail to embark on a platform lengthening programme on the West Yorkshire electric routes to allow eight carriage trains to operate: Moving the 332s to Leeds would also allow the 321s to be replaced on Leeds-Doncaster turns, and Northern could have two uniform fleets of EMUs: 332/333s on the east side, and 323s on the west.

Class 360. The five Heathrow Connect units (plus the one HEX “shuttle”?) will be spare when Crossrail opens. Logistically a class of five or six will be too small for most other TOCs to bother with so I expect these will end up at NXEA with their twenty one 360s (albeit the Heathrow ones are a coach longer). Could these be converted into 350s (with corridor connections)?

I’d expect their most likely destination will be NXEA just like you, which seems like a completely reasonable idea.

As concerns classes 313-315, I’d expect their next move being to the scrapyard, although I don’t expect this to happen for another four years or more.

 

[Class377/5]

365 - Same here, Personally, id rather have the 365s service the future electrified areas of the Great Western than the 319s - Partly for a more common Networker Type fleet, and partly because as a replacement for the similar 165/166s - I know id prefer a 365 to a 319!



Ah, but then again there's always the IEP Cambridge proposals...

The IEP was to replace the Kings Lynn services only. Cambridge slow services could still use 365 and the 317 are more likely to go first.

 

[jopsuk]

But Cambridge Slow are supposed to go over to Thameslink/NXEMU are they not? The idea being that fasts and and Kings Lynn services (which are extended fasts) still operate from Kings Cross, with IEP, and slow/semi fast go through the tunnel and out into 3rd rail land. Same for Peterborough services, with Hertford and Welywn potentially going TfL/Overground using whatever replaces the 313s (378s being current favourite)

 

[swt_passenger]

...with Hertford and Welywn potentially going TfL/Overground using whatever replaces the 313s (378s being current favourite)

There are no plans to transfer any more services to TfL/LO. I challenge you to find an up to date online report referring to this.

 

[me123]

Class 320. Whilst I can see the logic in putting the 321s together, and treating 322s as 321s, the 320s are different. Is there anywhere else for these 75mph units?

The 320s are totally different, although the current upgrade will see toilets fitted and allow 90mph so it will remove a sizable portion of these differences. The upgrade will allow the units to run on the Argyle Line down to Lanark at higher speeds. This is their new home, and probably will be their last home. As much as I hate them, they are suited to the North Clyde and Argyle duties.

I don't see them leaving Scotland. The fact that they're "only" 3 car trains means that they're unlikely to go down South in the first place. But they have a place up here, and that's not going to go away any time soon.

Class 380. I thought there’d be dozens more of these in Scotland in a few years time (with the need for electrification to Dunblane etc). However, teething problems may make this less likely.

I don't think it would make further orders less likely, but I doubt that 380s would be used. For a start, you'd need First Class acommodation for Edinburgh-Glasgow (although that's easy enough to implement on a 380). But the linespeed proposed for EGIP is 125mph. 380s aren't capable of this, and I doubt that they ever would be. I reckon you'd need a whole new class of trains (and it makes sense IMO to just have one big class of trains to replace the services out of Queen Street High Level). So I don't really think we're ever going to see any more 380s.

 

[MacCookie]

I don't think it would make further orders less likely, but I doubt that 380s would be used. For a start, you'd need First Class acommodation for Edinburgh-Glasgow (although that's easy enough to implement on a 380). But the linespeed proposed for EGIP is 125mph. 380s aren't capable of this, and I doubt that they ever would be. I reckon you'd need a whole new class of trains (and it makes sense IMO to just have one big class of trains to replace the services out of Queen Street High Level). So I don't really think we're ever going to see any more 380s.

Where did you read that the linespeed was going to be 125mph? If it was Mr Rail Britain, well... that's certainly not what was originally proposed. If you read the EGIP report, you'll note that the time saving by increasing the maximum speed to 125mph is minimal (34 minutes compared to 37 minutes - guess what Network Rail and TS are currently quoting as the fastest time under EGIP... 37 minutes...) and that the cost would be significant due to the amount of realignment and infrastructure upgrades required (the EGIP report actually states that the current alignment isn't suitable for 125mph running).

Ewan

 

[tbtc]

Surely by the time Crossrail is finished the 315s WILL be ready for scrap? They're thirty years old

In fairness there's a lot less to go "wrong" with an old EMU than an old DMU, spruce up the interior and would the performance/reliability be that much worse than a modern unit?

I'd prefer a 315 to a Pacer any day.

 

[Fred26]

Could the 315s not run on electrified lines around Manchester/Leeds? They're good units. They could do with toilets, but surely they can be fitted without too much difficulty.

 

[ainsworth74]

In fairness there's a lot less to go "wrong" with an old EMU than an old DMU, spruce up the interior and would the performance/reliability be that much worse than a modern unit?

Perhaps but assuming Crossrail arrives 'on time' (I can remember a documentary talking about Crossrail opening in the first few years of the 21st century ) the 315s are going to be 37+ years old, even for an EMU that is old. How much more life would they honestly have left in them? Most of the 1st gen 30x series of AC units and quite a number of the slammers served for around 30-40 years and that seems to be the average expected service life an EMU, so honestly how much more could we expect from units like the 315s?

 

[jopsuk]

at nearly 40 years, the problems may well not be mechanical (after all, motors get taken out and refurbed/replaced) but structural- fatigue and corrosion teaming up to unnacceptable levels. They'll still be safe to operate when withdrawn- but the point is that you don't operate them until they're unsafe or unworkable, you scrap and replace a sensible time before that happens. Not eveything the south is finished with can be cast off to the north- the north needs new units too!

 

[O L Leigh]

They could do with toilets, but surely they can be fitted without too much difficulty.

I believe the low roof line would make that tricky. There'd be nowhere for the water tank.

O L Leigh