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Further Fares Reform
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I was told today at WGC ticket office that the off-peak carnet tickets will not be offered after 6th December, is this true and is this part of this change?
(Although they did say the same thing a couple of years ago and it didn’t seem to happen)
Annoying especially given the service downgrades
(Although they did say the same thing a couple of years ago and it didn’t seem to happen)
Annoying especially given the service downgrades
Alex365Dash
Member
This is actually part of the Project Oval changes extending the Contactless PAYG area, but for some stations, this will be the case.
Welwyn Garden City won’t be affected, but for Luton, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth Garden City, where Off-Peak Carnets are currently sold to/from London and the Contactless PAYG area will expand to (from Sunday 14th December), the Off-Peak Carnets will be withdrawn.
For what it’s worth, any with a start/issue date on or before Saturday 6th December can continue to be used until expiry as usual.
Is that just an oversight and we should expect those tickets to be withdrawn at some point?
The service is abysmal - yet again today the 0753 stopper to Moorgate was allowed to proceed ahead of the 0751 to Kings Cross so it took forty minutes to get to Finsbury Park, compare to fifteen minutes pre-2018 when we had the slots on the fast line and could have overtaken. We don't need it becoming more expensive as well.
The service is abysmal - yet again today the 0753 stopper to Moorgate was allowed to proceed ahead of the 0751 to Kings Cross so it took forty minutes to get to Finsbury Park, compare to fifteen minutes pre-2018 when we had the slots on the fast line and could have overtaken. We don't need it becoming more expensive as well.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Could it be an effect of clustering being done wrong, as a similar situation I raised a week or so back of there being two of each fare for a particular flow was? Particularly because the new off peak day return is a DDR rather than CDR, so they wouldn't automatically override each other?
Fawkes Cat
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The usual ticket type code for an Off Peak Day Return is CDR, which used to stand for Cheap Day Return. The Ovalised ones have been changed to DDR, I have no idea what the first D stands for if anything, but the reason appears to relate to the programming of ticket gates which cannot interpret restriction codes, only ticket types. However the different ticket type would cause a cluster override not to happen, if I understand correctly how these work, i.e. where the station would take fares from another nearby major station if the override was not in place for that specific fare.
(Edit: with thanks to whoever explained that to me the other week!)
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Fawkes Cat
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Thanks
Haywain
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Maybe with the afternoon time restrictions it stands for Diminished!
ChilliSauce
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Simplification of number / types of tickets is long long overdue. Ideally now (or in the future) the ticket will say "GBR services only" meaning not valid on "Open Operator - revenue extractor services" And like wise 'Open access tickets never valid on GBR services even in times of disruption.
Hopefully this simplification will then further continue with the abolition of all these different and confusing Railcards. To be replaced with 1 type of rail card that anyone and everyone can purchase and which gives 1/3 fares.
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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Hopefully this simplification will then further continue with the abolition of all these different and confusing Railcards. To be replaced with 1 type of rail card that anyone and everyone can purchase and which gives 1/3 fares.
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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
1/3 off fares !
Alex365Dash
Member
No, it’s not an oversight. Welwyn Garden City was added earlier to Contactless PAYG, so isn’t getting Oval-related fares changes to other stations already in the PAYG area.
Unfortunately, I don’t have a crystal ball to comment on the latter question!
Kite159
Veteran Member
LNER would love for those pesky open access operators to disappear, solely so they can hike the prices even more due to the lack of competition. Before they started messing around with removal of the super off-peak fares, buying advances to Newcastle was cheaper than buying an advance to Darlington on the same train due to the competition from Lumo. An advance ticket to Leeds can be beaten with an advance to Wakefield & a flexible ticket between Wakefield & Leeds due to LNER deciding that Leeds - London should be £10 more than Wakefield - London due to the competition element from Grand Central.
Simplification will result in fares increasing in price.
Would you be happy for a national railcard to have a blanket ‘not before 09:30’ style restriction?
Be careful what you wish for.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Digital Day Return, logically?
ChilliSauce
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The presence of an "Open Operator" ... May drive done fares on the likes of LNER ...It is the interavailability of the likes of anytime tickets that needs to go. These Operators are not part of the national GBR operation they are stand alone. In the world of Airlines you would expect to buy a ticket for the likes of grubby Ryan Air and then expect to travel on British Airways .. So why should rail travel be any different?
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*You wouldn't expect to a buy a ticket for the likes ....
Why?
Sorry, are you asking why railways should be different to airlines? How much time do you have?
I don't think people between the ages of 16 and 30, those over 60 or the disabled would agree with you.
I know you'd like a national railcard (as do I) but achieving it by abolishing the existing railcards in favour of one national scheme with a blanket 'not before 09:30' would be a significant disbenefit to many, many people.
Fawkes Cat
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Although for ticket inspectors (and the people we see here getting caught out if they've clicked the wrong Railcard) common rules would be much easier to remember and so enforce (n.b.usual exception round the Disabled card, which has a rather different purpose from the others).
Full disclosure: The only Railcard I currently have a meaningful entitlement to is a Two Together Card. But I will shortly be entitled to buy a Senior Railcard which I plan to use for my (non South East) commute.
That would have unintended consequences. It's probably time for me to give my 16-25 Railcard example again and demonstrate why it isn't just a leisure product.
Stevenage to London Terminals Anytime Day Return is £28.90 which is expensive, particularly for someone at the start of their career working in London.
A 16-25 Railcard allows travel for a more reasonable £19.20 which is much more affordable. Not everyone working in London earns massive salaries.
This also means someone can pay on a daily basis rather than having to find money for a season ticket up front.
A blanket not before 09:30 would see a 50% increase in fares for many youn peiople to get to work.
Changes will surely be made later to harmonise? Especially as paper carnet tickets are so easily abused. I can see them wanting to just offer the flexible season tickets instead, and I think they need to be looked at to offer better terms than now (like extending how long you have to use them).
Trainbike46
Established Member
"via Runcorn or Birkenhead", maybe?
Going back to this TPE proposal - I really hope the "in-between" fare will be the (super-)Off-peak. I do think Single leg pricing has the potential to be good*, so I hope they don't mess it up by turning it into another fare increase trial as LNER have done.
*If implemented well, they offer lots of advantages for customers, and it sounds like Bletchleyite is making full use of it on the WCML
Then the answer is probably to have one railcard with off peak restrictions and an enhanced railcard without them.
It would still be a less complicated outlook for passengers.
Trainbike46
Established Member
It does depend a bit though - the restriction differences between the 16-25 and 26-30 railcards are very minimal, and frankly I don't understand why they added the complications of an extra railcard type rather than just extending the the validity of the 16-25 railcard to 30, creating a 16-30 railcard. I could see a strong argument for merging those two railcards. In contrast things like the 2 together and family and friends railcards have very different rules from the other railcards by their very nature, so I would be opposed to any proposal to merge those two with other railcards.
I do agree though that a blanket 50% fare increase for the group you mention would not be good.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Or just remove via Warrington as a permitted route, and then have an 'any permitted' ticket?
It's worth noting though that the comparisons between the Merseyrail and TFW tickets on this journey aren't as clear as Krokodil has set out. The only '5p difference between via Birko and via Runcorn' is on the anytime day returns. TFW offers a cheaper off peak day return, and the TFW single is £2.15 cheaper than the Merseyrail one. However none of this accounts for the fact Merseyrail after 9.30 works on the £6.40 'day saver' which they refuse to put on normal systems so it's not picked up by journey planners.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Or even better, just price the "any permitted" ticket as one of the current via Runcorn/Birkenhead, to replace all three. Based on descriptions above, no-one is travelling via Warrington unless there is disruption anyway.
Fair points!
How much more money would young people have to pay for the "peak" railcard?
That depends on whether you want to maintain the July and August easement which stems from giving 'students' easy access to cheaper fares in those months or not.
The difference in eligibility for this easement has always seemed fairly easy to defend in my view.
My thought was that anyone currently entitled to a card with peak travel, would be eligible for the enhanced one.
redreni
Established Member
Railcards are one area where you could potentially leave things pretty much as they are now but make it a bit more comprehensible for the neophyte. For example, rename the Network Railcard the Basic National Railcard and get rid of the geographic restrictions, ditch the other regional Railcards, and make it clear that anybody can buy the Basic National Railcard which aims to give discounts on leisure travel. The other Railcards could then be marketed as giving the same or better discounts, but with fewer time/minimum fare restrictions, and being available only to those who meet the eligibility criteria. The only remaining real quirk would then be the Two Together, which is reasonably self-explanatory. I do think more could be done to demystify Railcards.
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