Further Fares Reform

[ainsworth74]

With thanks to an informed source the following information has given to staff at a certain North of England TOC:

Right now, rail fares can be confusing with different rules, operator-specific fares, and ticket types that don’t always fit how people actually travel. Fares reform will change that by:

Simplifying ticket choices - customers will be presented with a MAXIMUM of 3 ticket types, all operator specific flexible fares will be removed
Single leg pricing (SLP) - two singles will cost the same as a return! Customers will be able to mix & match their peak & off-peak single tickets

Advance Purchase sold on the day of travel will be removed in areas that will have pay-as-you-go technology, which will predominantly be short distance. AP where currently available, will be retained to be purchased before the day of travel.

The 3 fares that a customer is presented with will vary depending on the type & length of journey. For X TOC, we are shaping what travel to work fares, and regional leisure based fares look like.

Travel to work fares model will have an anytime, an off-peak and a fixed (AP).

Regional leisure based fares model will have an anytime, a fixed & something in the middle - keep an eye out for updates in the coming weeks.

LNER have launched their trial of long distance fares, including an anytime, a 70 min flex, and a fixed. I have some initial results from this -
80% of customers who bought the 70 min flex travelled on their originally booked train
CSAT is up to 17% points higher for customers who booked the 70 min flex compared to other ticket types
Avanti will launch another long distance trial next year, but I understand this will look slightly different to the LNER one

(Infographic above has various stats and principles listed including that £377m market headroom exists in the North from pricing reform, RDG research finds 84% of customers believe fares structure not fit for purpose, expansion of Pay As You Go along with launch of national online ticket retailer, empowerment of devolved authorities to shape local services through statutory roles).

 

[Adam Williams]

CSAT is up to 17% points higher for customers who booked the 70 min flex compared to other ticket types

I'd love to see the methodology and data behind this statistic.

 

[Gwr12345]

I'm very confused! Are there going to be different fares based off your journey intention? How's that going to work? The abolition of APOD I agree with though, assuming it's Northern (mentioned down page it's probably TPE, ignore)
Not looking forward to the Avanti "trial" either

 

[Bletchleyite]

That looks full of as many anomalies as the present system!

Presumably if one wants an off peak long distance fare one just needs to string together short distance fares...

This does seem to confirm previous thoughts that the other two trials would be Avanti and TPE - the colour scheme of that presentation gives away where it has clearly come from!

 

[sot]

Good lord...
Removal of all operator specific must only be theirs unless other TOC in area have agreed.

Admittedly I do use alot of special AP fares at the minute but this erosion and obvious direction towards LNER style is worrying.

I suppose under public control much more could be moaned about, however given the current state of affairs with ignorance of the country's comments I don't think much would be heeded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Removal of all operator specific must only be theirs unless other TOC in area have agreed.

Removal of all the TPE and Northern ones which are 10p apart is long overdue to be honest. Removing the WMT vs. Avanti long distance ones is removing a valuable market segmentation.

 

[sot]

What are regulated fares on the north WCML?

Can they just start binning off things willynilly

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are regulated fares on the north WCML?

Can they just start binning off things willynilly

The concept of fare regulation is now meaningless, in effect. The Government isn't going to take enforcement action against itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==

I'd love to see the methodology and data behind this statistic.

Is that the actual statistic? I thought it was that people were in general more satisfied on the trial routes, presumably due to reduced overcrowding and occupancy of peoples' reserved seats.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

we are shaping what travel to work fares, and regional leisure based fares look like.

Well, some people have a long distance commute and leisure travel is not all long distance or overnight.

Hold on, don't we already have 'day returns' for up to around 35? miles and 'period returns' (Saver aka Off-Peak Return) for longer distance fares? The first valid for one day and the latter for a month.

Walk up singles, not quota controlled, for any journey at half the price of the current return (cue debate on which return fare to halve). You buy your first single on the way out (priced according to time) and another single when you know when you are coming back (again priced according to time). Rural areas may not have 'peak' differences, urban areas may have banded peak times eg 0700 to 0730, 0730 to 0800 etc. Scheduled departure time from the station named on the ticket.

 

[Krokodil]

Removal of all operator specific must only be theirs unless other TOC in area have agreed.

If this is a TPE presentation then Northern are also nationalised so that won't be an issue.

Removal of all the TPE and Northern ones which are 10p apart is long overdue to be honest.

Even worse, the two main options for Chester to Liverpool are now just 5p apart. I don't think I've ever seen an undiscounted adult walkup fare rounded to 5p instead of 10p. TfW and Merseyrail should just have their heads bashed together and merge the "via Runcorn" and "via Birkenhead" fares into one "not via Warrington" route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==

Hold on, don't we already have 'day returns' for up to around 35? miles

There's no consistency on that. In North Wales, the threshold would appear to be 35 miles (ish) for interavailable fares but Avanti will offer you an Off Peak Day Return for 85 miles. Down in South Wales however you can get an Anytime Day Return for the 130 mile journey from Newport to Fishguard. I'm sure that there are plenty more anomalies like that around the country.

 

[redreni]

Dear staff,

Our customers are confused and unhappy because they're paying £377,000,000 a year too little in fares. The LNER trial shows they'll be much happier paying more.

DfTO

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no consistency on that. In North Wales, the threshold would appear to be 35 miles (ish) for interavailable fares but Avanti will offer you an Off Peak Day Return for 85 miles. Down in South Wales however you can get an Anytime Day Return for the 130 mile journey from Newport to Fishguard. I'm sure that there are plenty more anomalies like that around the country.

It's not even consistent within Avanti. There isn't a day return from MKC to Birmingham, as a result of which you save a tenner by splitting (Rugby or Coventry both work).

This nonsense of course makes that worse by only offering affordable flexibility if you split!

 

[Sonic1234]

Dear staff,

Our customers are confused and unhappy because they're paying £377,000,000 a year too little in fares. The LNER trial shows they'll be much happier paying more.

DfTO

And if you don't like it, please drive and fill our coffers via fuel duty. Plus help out a local council that we've underfunded by using their car parks.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There's no consistency on that. In North Wales, the threshold would appear to be 35 miles (ish) for interavailable fares but Avanti will offer you an Off Peak Day Return for 85 miles. Down in South Wales however you can get an Anytime Day Return for the 130 mile journey from Newport to Fishguard. I'm sure that there are plenty more anomalies like that around the country.

Indeed. I mention it because there are probably many short journeys which are also popular for overnight stays. I would suggest particularly so where there is a poor / no late evening return service but an active event / nightlife scene.

A few years ago the Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester 'Saver' fare disappeared. The distance is only 39 miles but, given the early time of the last train, if you want to attend a concert it means an overnight stay. During the period when the Saver ticket was unavailable that meant purchasing two singles, each 10p less than the return fare.

Singles at half the return fare removes the issue.

PS the answer was to buy a 'Saver' to somewhere just beyond Manchester (Stalybridge or Bolton as I recall).

 

[WAB]

If this is a TPE presentation then Northern are also nationalised so that won't be an issue.

And in any case, the management teams are working increasingly closely together at TPE and NT.

 

[JonathanH]

This looks like it will include the imposition of an afternoon peak period across the country in due course which is going to make for a lot of complications.

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like a white wash of the LNER fares trial. I too would love to see the methodology - doubtless it won't stand up to scrutiny.

What is this "something in the middle" for medium distance leisure journeys ? Off peak tickets might do the trick, however perhaps that's not complicated enough for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

This looks like it will include the imposition of an afternoon peak period across the country in due course which is going to make for a lot of complications.

They'd be half-wits to impose this.

 

[redreni]

They'd be half-wits to impose this.

Then it is a possibility we should take very seriously.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then it is a possibility we should take very seriously.

Evening peak restrictions and single fare pricing are a given. To be honest, I've been more than happy with it on the south WCML. I pay less in fares now than I did, particularly because of the nifty little feature that a tap in before 0630 is off peak, but also because of other things like being able to do a period return journey for the price of a day return, plus the flexibility it offers to mix and match tickets or even going in one way and back another.

One thing I find interesting about this TPE presentation is that it mentions a trial on Avanti which has been mooted here before by someone else who appears to know these things (they can name themselves if they want, I won't name them) and I think we all guessed at the time that London-Manchester is perhaps a likely place for it being a solid middle distance route with some overcrowding issues at times. However the TPE one seems like they're just going to implement it, not trial it on one or two station pairs - that seems rather a risk, given that the LNER scheme hasn't been tried on a short distance route yet and may have an entirely different effect than it does on one where the plane is the main competitor? Trying it on London-Manchester as a middle distance one would make a lot of sense, but surely a short distance trial would make sense before committing to it?

I guess it's also of note that if the Avanti scheme will differ from the LNER one (which we have heard before) then that means the LNER scheme as it is isn't a given? Unless the DfT is going to settle on "you have to have an Anytime, you have to have an Advance, but you can do what you like for the middle one as long as you only have one" - which would create a mess far bigger than what we have now and is a bizarre way to do things in terms of a move to GBR - surely we should have a single national fares policy now?

 

[jonnyfan]

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

The link to BR Fares shows some new "Not For Travel" single fares for Glossop to Manchester. Gives us a clue to single leg pricing and preparing for contactless tap-on-tap-off that is being rolled out on this line next year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

The link to BR Fares shows some new "Not For Travel" single fares for Glossop to Manchester. Gives us a clue to single leg pricing and preparing for contactless tap-on-tap-off that is being rolled out on this line next year.

Those will indeed be the contactless fares. Not clear yet as to whether paper fares would be adjusted now or not, though. They were for Project Oval but they weren't for the earlier Oyster/contactless roll-outs closer to London.

It's interesting that two contactless singles are more expensive on that than the present returns (that won't exactly drive takeup), though that could be they're just worked out based on the next increase as they won't be implemented until then.

 

[markymark2000]

Even worse, the two main options for Chester to Liverpool are now just 5p apart. I don't think I've ever seen an undiscounted adult walkup fare rounded to 5p instead of 10p. TfW and Merseyrail should just have their heads bashed together and merge the "via Runcorn" and "via Birkenhead" fares into one "not via Warrington" route.

Bigger question, now that the Halton Curve exists as well as Merseyrail. Plus the fact Northern only run the 1 train per day between Bank Quay and Liverpool (meaning people have to walk between Bank Quay and Central), why is 'via Warrington' even a permitted route and why is this ticket sold as an option? Pre Halton Curve it was a silly ticket that made no sense, now it is is a completely nonsensical ticket just to needlessly confuse passengers. The only time someone should ever go via Warrington on such a ticket is during engineering works and that could then be dealt with as an easement.

There's no consistency on that. In North Wales, the threshold would appear to be 35 miles (ish) for interavailable fares but Avanti will offer you an Off Peak Day Return for 85 miles. Down in South Wales however you can get an Anytime Day Return for the 130 mile journey from Newport to Fishguard. I'm sure that there are plenty more anomalies like that around the country.

I love the Avanti only off peak return (month return) between Chester and Llandudno Junction. Saving you a whole 20p. A fare that should certainly be removed as it's a complete waste. 20p saving but significant reduction in the amount of services that you can use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I love the Avanti only off peak return (month return) between Chester and Llandudno Junction. Saving you a whole 20p. A fare that should certainly be removed as it's a complete waste. 20p saving but significant reduction in the amount of services that you can use.

These fares are a modern day version of the ORCATS raid (i.e. timetabling a train specifically in order to gain money from inter available fares without necessarily carrying many passengers) - undercut the other TOC by a minimal amount so your ticket shows as cheapest on planners. Their effect is indeed strongly negative, and a good aspect of the above presentation appears to be that they will indeed go away.

Northern and TPE have lots of these. There are also plenty of others e.g. Avanti vs. WMT south of MKC (long distance you're genuinely segmenting the market with big fare differences) - it's likely Oval rollout to MKC will result in these going away anyway as contactless can't deal with TOC specific fares unless (as per Gatwick) you have a dedicated gateline, which wouldn't be feasible at MKC or Euston.

 

[Kite159]

Getting rid of those TOC only fares where the saving is pence is a good move. Also moving to single leg pricing will be a good way to axe a lot of those advance tickets for short journeys, go back to the way things were with advance tickets only being available for journeys over a certain distance and not for stupid things like Ashburys to Piccadilly or Stockport to Piccadilly.

Although I can see at some point the 'pre 06;30 is off-peak' disappearing when the CPay area is extended where the revenue lose will be too great

@markymark2000 anybody going Chester to Liverpool via Warrington will probably change at Earlestown onto the hourly Northern stopper or even Newton-Le-Willows (if permitted) onto the TPE. But agreed it's a fare which should be axed.

 

[markymark2000]

@markymark2000 anybody going Chester to Liverpool via Warrington will probably change at Earlestown onto the hourly Northern stopper or even Newton-Le-Willows (if permitted) onto the TPE. But agreed it's a fare which should be axed.

That's a good shout, I forgot about those routes. But even so, people realistically aren't going to make such a journey.

 

[Krokodil]

Getting rid of those TOC only fares where the saving is pence is a good move

Yes, there ought to be a threshold (both a percentage and a cash amount) discount below the Any Permitted fare before it is possible to offer a TOC-specific or route specific ticket. That means that significant discounts are still available where these are used to use up spare capacity (see the Trent Valley stopper) but eliminates the silly fares.

I would also do the same to Off Peak tickets. If it is pence difference then it surely serves no purpose.

anybody going Chester to Liverpool via Warrington will probably change at Earlestown onto the hourly Northern stopper or even Newton-Le-Willows (if permitted) onto the TPE. But agreed it's a fare which should be axed.

Newton-le-Willows has a much more convenient connection.

I did encounter someone with a "via Warrington" ticket the other day. He wanted to break his journey at Bank Quay. Just goes to show how much of a niche it is.

 

[Kite159]

I would also do the same to Off Peak tickets. If it is pence difference then it surely serves no purpose.

Agreed, if the off peak day return is say £4,90 with the anytime day return is £5,00 it would be simpler to axe the offpeak day return.

Although with moves to single leg pricing such things will hopefully disappear, although I wouldn't put it pass the industry to set the offpeak single to be £2,45 with the anytime single at £2,50.

 

[NorthWalian]

If this is a TPE presentation then Northern are also nationalised so that won't be an issue.


Even worse, the two main options for Chester to Liverpool are now just 5p apart. I don't think I've ever seen an undiscounted adult walkup fare rounded to 5p instead of 10p. TfW and Merseyrail should just have their heads bashed together and merge the "via Runcorn" and "via Birkenhead" fares into one "not via Warrington" route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==


There's no consistency on that. In North Wales, the threshold would appear to be 35 miles (ish) for interavailable fares but Avanti will offer you an Off Peak Day Return for 85 miles. Down in South Wales however you can get an Anytime Day Return for the 130 mile journey from Newport to Fishguard. I'm sure that there are plenty more anomalies like that around the country.

One common anomaly I’ve seen is that Avanti won’t offer advances for Chester to Crewe yet do so for Chester to Stafford

This leaves situations where the latter can be 1/3 less than the former despite being a stop further.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2025 ==

Yes, there ought to be a threshold (both a percentage and a cash amount) discount below the Any Permitted fare before it is possible to offer a TOC-specific or route specific ticket. That means that significant discounts are still available where these are used to use up spare capacity (see the Trent Valley stopper) but eliminates the silly fares.

I would also do the same to Off Peak tickets. If it is pence difference then it surely serves no purpose.


Newton-le-Willows has a much more convenient connection.

I did encounter someone with a "via Warrington" ticket the other day. He wanted to break his journey at Bank Quay. Just goes to show how much of a niche it is.

Newton Le Willows is still a pointless connection

The best routes will always be the Merseyrail or TfW Halton Curve

 

[Alex C.]

Although I can see at some point the 'pre 06;30 is off-peak' disappearing when the CPay area is extended where the revenue lose will be too great

I agree - the route I travel on most frequently is Portsmouth - London. Anytime return is £97.10. I doubt many are paying that. Plenty of commuters doing the journey every day though.

There are no peak restrictions in the evening so I usually do the journey for £25-45 on the way in (depending on if I manage to book in advance) and ~£26 on the way home with a network railcard and super off peak single.

They will have the opportunity to prevent all of this by scrapping the super off peak, introducing an evening peak or scrapping advance tickets at peak times. The only saving grace would be if they allowed off peak prices if you tap in before 6:30am but given the differential (half that anytime ticket is £48.55, half the current off peak fare is £27.50) I really can't see that happening.

 

[redreni]

Agreed, if the off peak day return is say £4,90 with the anytime day return is £5,00 it would be simpler to axe the offpeak day return.

Although with moves to single leg pricing such things will hopefully disappear, although I wouldn't put it pass the industry to set the offpeak single to be £2,45 with the anytime single at £2,50.

And then try to prosecute somebody who inadvertently falls foul of a peak restriction and/or can't find anybody to issue the 5p excess.