Fun on the school bus

[neilmc]

Today I was in Sale, Greater Manchester, waiting for the Stagecoach X41/X5 to Northenden. However at peak there is a 45 minute gap on the X41 and at around 16:15 a school service 768, worked by a Stagecoach double-decker, came into the stop. This bus shows "Northenden" as its destination so I tried to board it and the driver, as expected, tried to refuse me on the grounds that it was a school service.

Bolshy me pointed out that the TfGM website clearly states that all school services (apart from the yellow ones with allocated seats) are available for all passengers and did I have to ring the depot or TfGM to complain? Grudgingly then he let me on, and I determinedly took the front seat where he could keep an eye on me and make sure I didn't try to contact any children!

This really shouldn't have been necessary, he merely ought to verify that I was actually going somewhere the bus went, and if this is a TfGM stipulation Stagecoach ought to teach it to their staff. He stated that in ten years driving he'd never seen an adult on a school bus, which I find hard to believe.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Today I was in Sale, Greater Manchester, waiting for the Stagecoach X41/X5 to Northenden. However at peak there is a 45 minute gap on the X41 and at around 16:15 a school service 768, worked by a Stagecoach double-decker, came into the stop. This bus shows "Northenden" as its destination so I tried to board it and the driver, as expected, tried to refuse me on the grounds that it was a school service.

Bolshy me pointed out that the TfGM website clearly states that all school services (apart from the yellow ones with allocated seats) are available for all passengers and did I have to ring the depot or TfGM to complain? Grudgingly then he let me on, and I determinedly took the front seat where he could keep an eye on me and make sure I didn't try to contact any children!

This really shouldn't have been necessary, he merely ought to verify that I was actually going somewhere the bus went, and if this is a TfGM stipulation Stagecoach ought to teach it to their staff. He stated that in ten years driving he'd never seen an adult on a school bus, which I find hard to believe.

I don't... who in their right mind would want to share a bus with 80 or 90 screaming kids running about out of control?

I find it strange that TfGM allow normal passengers on school contracts. In most parts of the country it is the norm now for children to be transported separately from "normal" passengers.

 

[overthewater]

I believe normal passenger would only be allowed on " out in sticks" type areas.

 

[221129]

If it's a public bus on a school route (Which this sounds like it is) then anyone can get on. Been helpful to me a couple of times down here.

 

[Mojo]

I believe normal passenger would only be allowed on " out in sticks" type areas.

Normal people are allowed on London school buses (those buses in the 600 series, except the 603 which is only partially a school service, and the 607 which is definitely not!)

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Normal people are allowed on London school buses (those buses in the 600 series, except the 603 which is only partially a school service, and the 607 which is definitely not!)

but as I said... who in their right mind would WANT to?

 

[185143]

If it's a public bus on a school route (Which this sounds like it is) then anyone can get on. Been helpful to me a couple of times down here.

it is. I use it occasionally.

 

[hassaanhc]

but as I said... who in their right mind would WANT to?

I have on numerous occasions used one of the three afternoon journeys from Hounslow on the TfL 635 (Sunbury to Brentford via Feltham and Hounslow). The buses are virtually empty by then, and really are there to provide extra capacity on that busy corridor* . However, not many seem to use them, so they get to miss many stops and overtake the normal 235/237 buses. They often have quite fast drivers with a Dennis Trident, which may be a reason I go on it...

* When the route was operated by Metroline from their Brentford garage, it could be argued that it was effectively the light run being operated in service. Now it is run by London United from Hounslow Heath, which it passes earlier in the journey. However, one bus is used to provide a peak extra on the H91 from Hammersmith, and Brentford is about 40% of the distance covered.

 

[bussnapperwm]

but as I said... who in their right mind would WANT to?

I sometimes use a bus run by The Green Bus as it's easier if I'm on a 4pm finish from my office as it saves waiting 25 minutes for the normal bus (one comes at 1555...how annoying is that!)

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't... who in their right mind would want to share a bus with 80 or 90 screaming kids running about out of control?

I find it strange that TfGM allow normal passengers on school contracts. In most parts of the country it is the norm now for children to be transported separately from "normal" passengers.

If it's a school *contract* then the general public are not entitled to travel on it but many of the old-style school runs have, nowadays, been converted to being commercial services open to all.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If it's a school *contract* then the general public are not entitled to travel on it but many of the old-style school runs have, nowadays, been converted to being commercial services open to all.

for one reason only.... to lower the tender cost by making the journey eligible for fuel duty rebate... or whatever they call it these days!

 

[Mojo]

but as I said... who in their right mind would WANT to?

The 603 has a number of customers that escort their children to school, and use the bus going back the other way to get back home. This route also offers journey opportunities between main local centres that no other bus routes offer, such as Highgate to Muswell Hill and Hampstead.

 

[northwichcat]

for one reason only.... to lower the tender cost by making the journey eligible for fuel duty rebate... or whatever they call it these days!

They're not all tendered though. Funding no longer exists for all school bus routes to operate on a contracted basis and if operators can make more money registering a commercial bus aimed at school/college pupils then they will.

 

[Robertj21a]

for one reason only.... to lower the tender cost by making the journey eligible for fuel duty rebate... or whatever they call it these days!

Sorry, rubbish.

Most school contracts have become commercial as the councils have insufficient funding to pay for all of them. I know of a few operators who have come under a bit of pressure to take these runs on commercially and, with a few tweaks, some have found it possible to incorporate them within their standard rotas etc.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Sorry, rubbish.

Most school contracts have become commercial as the councils have insufficient funding to pay for all of them. I know of a few operators who have come under a bit of pressure to take these runs on commercially and, with a few tweaks, some have found it possible to incorporate them within their standard rotas etc.

rubbish? really? most council contracts are for school transport that they are required to provide by STATUTE law. Because of concerns for child safety these days MOST school contracts have been seperated from the normal service runs and are run as dedicated school contracts... Some operators register these contracts as a service to gain BSOG. Here in Ceredigion there are only a few school runs still integrated with the local service runs... remember school contracts are now usually tendered by a completely different department than the local services.

I strongly suggest that before you condemn something as rubbish you go and get yourself informed on the subject matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, rubbish.

Most school contracts have become commercial as the councils have insufficient funding to pay for all of them. I know of a few operators who have come under a bit of pressure to take these runs on commercially and, with a few tweaks, some have found it possible to incorporate them within their standard rotas etc.

That much is true (and I know a local bus company who are quite into that sort of thing). But it remains a fact that to be paid BSOG the route has to be open to all passengers, not just schoolchildren, though I'd imagine you could skew it a bit by charging a fairly hefty adult fare.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

2Way Travel who run a few schools services in Scunthorpe and the surrounding area allow fare paying normal passengers on their 642 service - I decided to avail myself of its run as a form of positioning move for a bus I wanted to catch. it is interesting as this one actually has its own designated stand at Scunthorpe whereas most of them just sit at the NatEx stand for drop off and pick up.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If it's a public bus on a school route (Which this sounds like it is) then anyone can get on. Been helpful to me a couple of times down here.

We've got the opposite situation here; a large number of pupils are switching from the 6xx series in the Epsom area to ordinary public services because the official Surrey County Council contracted operator has suddenly raised the fares by 52% from £335 to £510 ( which SCC has refused to investigate ) whereas the public bus costs £328 for the year...

One week into term and already a relief bus was hastily arranged for one of the public services in question because of the sheer volume of pupils using it...

 

[34D]

If it's a school *contract* then the general public are not entitled to travel on it but many of the old-style school runs have, nowadays, been converted to being commercial services open to all.

This is incorrect. Whether it is 'commercial' or 'tendered' is irrelevant.

In very general terms, if passengers are carried at separate fares (ie paying cash to the driver) it needs to be registered. Many tendered school runs (both now, and in the past) work on this basis.

However, it's worth noting that some runs may be 'set down only' after the school.

Services can only be 'closed' if the council/authority don't require passengers to pay separate fares. Again, a generalisation.

Off hand I'm unaware of whether the yellow school runs in GM and WY are registered.

As another posted stated, BSOG (formerly fuel duty rebate) was a factor here (though this is now administered by the councils).

Also, some councils felt that serviced being registered was an extra stick to reliability.

 

[Robertj21a]

rubbish? really? most council contracts are for school transport that they are required to provide by STATUTE law. Because of concerns for child safety these days MOST school contracts have been seperated from the normal service runs and are run as dedicated school contracts... Some operators register these contracts as a service to gain BSOG. Here in Ceredigion there are only a few school runs still integrated with the local service runs... remember school contracts are now usually tendered by a completely different department than the local services.

I strongly suggest that before you condemn something as rubbish you go and get yourself informed on the subject matter.

Sorry, it's still rubbish. You may have something slightly different in Wales, but in England there are a good many services being run commercially whereas they had been school contracts previously.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Teflon Lettuce - are you saying BSOG is payable for services not open to the public? I don't believe it is.

Of course it is perfectly possible to timetable a school service so while public it is of no use to the public.

 

[jamesst]

Today I was in Sale, Greater Manchester, waiting for the Stagecoach X41/X5 to Northenden. However at peak there is a 45 minute gap on the X41 and at around 16:15 a school service 768, worked by a Stagecoach double-decker, came into the stop. This bus shows "Northenden" as its destination so I tried to board it and the driver, as expected, tried to refuse me on the grounds that it was a school service.

Bolshy me pointed out that the TfGM website clearly states that all school services (apart from the yellow ones with allocated seats) are available for all passengers and did I have to ring the depot or TfGM to complain? Grudgingly then he let me on, and I determinedly took the front seat where he could keep an eye on me and make sure I didn't try to contact any children!

This really shouldn't have been necessary, he merely ought to verify that I was actually going somewhere the bus went, and if this is a TfGM stipulation Stagecoach ought to teach it to their staff. He stated that in ten years driving he'd never seen an adult on a school bus, which I find hard to believe.

I would never want to travel on a school service, commercial or not,find it very odd that you threatened to report the driver over it

 

[Tetchytyke]

If it is registered as a public service then the public are allowed on it. The driver, no matter how incredulous he is that someone would want to take it, shouldn't have been complaining about it.

Up here in Nexusland most of the scholars services are registered as public services, and the destination blinds actually say "all passengers welcome". Most of them are tendered services although a few in Gateshead are operated commerically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would never want to travel on a school service, commercial or not,find it very odd that you threatened to report the driver over it

Because the decision as to whether it is open to the public or not is not the driver's, and so he is either accidentally or deliberately exceeding his authority.

 

[neilmc]

Because the decision as to whether it is open to the public or not is not the driver's, and so he is either accidentally or deliberately exceeding his authority.

Quite. I had checked on the TfGM website first as I'd tried this a while ago and been told by the previous driver I couldn't use the service. It also gave some interesting route mileage for anyone into such things, as it detoured into estates.

The bus was fairly quiet and the kids on it were all extremely polite to the driver.

We are planning to move to a village in Cumbria where there is a public bus to Penrith once a week but a daily school bus to Appleby. I've been told informally that it's OK for adults to catch the school bus but Cumbria CC aren't letting on either way so that remains to be seen.

 

[quarella]

Because the decision as to whether it is open to the public or not is not the driver's, and so he is either accidentally or deliberately exceeding his authority.

The Conditions of Carriage give the driver the right to refuse entry.

 

[notadriver]

I thought a driver could refuse carriage to any person under the CoC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Conditions of Carriage give the driver the right to refuse entry.

But if entry is refused on that basis the BSOG claim is illegal, no, as BSOG is only available for public stage carriage services? That would be counter to the bus company's policy (one presumes and hopes, unless fraud is the policy of the company, which seems somewhat unlikely). The driver cannot unilaterally act counter to his employer's policy or he would be liable to disciplinary action.

An example here might be a shop. There are certain reasons a shop cannot refuse service, e.g. on the basis of race. They can refuse for any other reason. However, if a Tesco cashier refused service unilaterally for a reason not the policy of their employer or a reason in breach of law, they are likely to find themselves at the thick end of a disciplinary.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought a driver could refuse carriage to any person under the CoC?

Only if your behaviour jeopardises the safety, security and comfort of others or alternatively if you turn up with too much hand luggage: https://www.stagecoachbus.com/conditionsofcarriage.aspx

 

[notadriver]

What if the driver claims they are stressed by an argument they had with the customer and that it could jeopardise their concentration and affect safety knowing they have someone 'hostile' on board?

I always thought the final say is down to the driver. (They may be in the wrong ) but it is ultimately they that are in charge of that vehicle.

Could a female bus driver refuse to carry someone that stalks her and always gets on her bus and sits near or at the front ?