FTPE Allowed us to sit in 1st class on overcrowded train

[Train2Win]

So yesterday i went from York to Scarborough on the 10:40 and it was packed so we decided to go and sit in 1st class . The guard came down checked our std tickets and said due to overcrowding on the train he would look the other way and not fine us .

I was shocked because in the south it would of been a straight penalty ticket for sure .

 

[DarloRich]

no it wouldn't - the guard can use his discretion. I have been put in FC "down south" several times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM often declassify 1st on packed trains. They tend to wait until the train has left Euston northbound so the 1st ticket holders get seats first.

 

[SteveP29]

Scotrail declassify 1st all the time when the train is standing room only

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Better to be invited rather than assume. But a more common sense approach is to be encouraged

 

[anti-pacer]

So yesterday i went from York to Scarborough on the 10:40 and it was packed so we decided to go and sit in 1st class . The guard came down checked our std tickets and said due to overcrowding on the train he would look the other way and not fine us .

I was shocked because in the south it would of been a straight penalty ticket for sure .

In 2008 I was travelling back to Leicester (where I lived then) from Manchester. I took a TPE service from Manchester to Sheffield which was packed in Standard and about a quarter full in First. People, including me, decided to sit in First but the guard was having none of it. Despite being a really hot day and people being packed in like sardines in Standard, he was happy to allow that to continue and charge anyone the appropriate upgrade if they sat in First.

I guess it was his call but common sense should have prevailed there. His customer service skills left a lot to be desired.

I get that First Class passengers have paid more for their fares, but Standard passengers have also paid a fare too. If the train is that overcrowded and the only seats available are more expensive, they should still be used. I'm glad that some guards do actually see that.

 

[Johnuk123]

no it wouldn't - the guard can use his discretion. I have been put in FC "down south" several times.

Completely different situation and not what the poster was talking about.
"Put in" and "found in" are not the same.

 

[yorkie]

So yesterday i went from York to Scarborough on the 10:40 and it was packed so we decided to go and sit in 1st class . The guard came down checked our std tickets and said due to overcrowding on the train he would look the other way and not fine us .

On Sunday, the Guard on this train wasn't equipped with a functioning Avantix machine, although he did walk through to 1st class. Could this have been the case yesterday? (edit - just realised yesterday was Monday!)

TPE are happy to upgrade people on the train; they don't issue Penalty Fares (which I am guessing is what you mean by a "fine") and it would only become a fine if you refused to pay and you were convicted in court.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TPE had announced that declassification of 1st was only going to happen in the most extreme cases (about 18 months ago IIRC) as first class ticket holders had complained about it happening regularly. So you were pretty lucky not to get penalised especially if the service wasn't THAT busy- especially as you'd sat down in there without checking with the guard first (no pun intended).

 

[johntea]

TPE had announced that declassification of 1st was only going to happen in the most extreme cases (about 18 months ago IIRC) as first class ticket holders had complained about it happening regularly. So you were pretty lucky not to get penalised especially if the service wasn't THAT busy- especially as you'd sat down in there without checking with the guard first (no pun intended).

They used to let it happen on pretty much every peak service between Leeds and Huddersfield at one point so I'm not too surprised!

 

[reb0118]

Scotrail declassify 1st all the time when the train is standing room only

Errr........no we don't. Due to operating six car units with no gangway connections certain passengers decide to self upgrade on occasion. There have been a few stings to catch these people out.

Also many units in Scotland have a 1st class section but are used on standard class only runs so again passengers get into the habit of sitting there.

1st class on ScotRail is a bit of a joke at present but plans are afoot to jazz it up somewhat.

 

[onlinespotting]

I've been on a declassified FC TPE a few times during Friday peak rush hour.

 

[BurtonM]

Oh, so folks in 1st whining was why it stopped.
Used to be a regular occurrence that the train was so packed you couldn't move on TPEs out of Piccadilly towards Yorkshire in the peaks, so they'd declassify 1st to make more standing room. Then they stopped doing it, and it made the crowding problems worse. People would move into 1st to get some breathing room just to get told to leave again.
Nobody stands in the aisles because there's nothing solid enough to hold on to, and it's equally troublesome when you're in the middle of the vestibule. 185s need more grab rails. Luggage scattered everywhere really don't help either.

 

[Spartacus]

They used to let it happen on pretty much every peak service between Leeds and Huddersfield at one point so I'm not too surprised!

There really wasn't much point not doing then before the 350s were in service, when the trains were so packed the guard stood 0% chance of getting through if FC was at the other end.

 

[BestWestern]

I get that First Class passengers have paid more for their fares, but Standard passengers have also paid a fare too. If the train is that overcrowded and the only seats available are more expensive, they should still be used. I'm glad that some guards do actually see that.

I'm sorry, but that is what tends to really get the goat! That very attitude, that 'there are no seats in standard so I should be able to sit in First'. No, no and no!

First is less full because it costs more. If people wish to enjoy that extra benefit, there is a requirement to pay for it accordingly. I have in the past asked a number of these people to explain to me how they feel the First Class product works on that basis; that we will charge for it and then let everyone else sit there anyway. Strangely enough, I'm yet to get a decent answer. I've also offered people the opportunity of staying in First, if they can stand up and persuade the rest of the carriage that they should be allowed to travel there for nothing whilst everybody else has paid the fare due. Oddly, that doesn't seem a popular option either.

Unless a train is genuinely crush loaded, which they really aren't all that often (i.e. "I have walked all the way through the train and there aren't any seats...." - but clearly there is plenty of room to stand then!) then I'm afraid it's a case of tolerate standing room only, just like everybody else is doing, or pay the fare. Grrrr!

 

[rebmcr]

I'm sorry, but that is what tends to really get the goat! That very attitude, that 'there are no seats in standard so I should be able to sit in First'. No, no and no!

First is less full because it costs more. If people wish to enjoy that extra benefit, there is a requirement to pay for it accordingly. I have in the past asked a number of these people to explain to me how they feel the First Class product works on that basis; that we will charge for it and then let everyone else sit there anyway. Strangely enough, I'm yet to get a decent answer. I've also offered people the opportunity of staying in First, if they can stand up and persuade the rest of the carriage that they should be allowed to travel there for nothing whilst everybody else has paid the fare due. Oddly, that doesn't seem a popular option either.

Unless a train is genuinely crush loaded, which they really aren't all that often (i.e. "I have walked all the way through the train and there aren't any seats...." - but clearly there is plenty of room to stand then!) then I'm afraid it's a case of tolerate standing room only, just like everybody else is doing, or pay the fare. Grrrr!

Playing devil's advocate, perhaps these trains that are too short at 3 carriages and were prevented from being extended should not have any room reserved for 1st. Space on those services is a scarcity, so the premium product isn't just an optional extra, it's draining essential capacity. That's why people believe it's right and proper for Standard class passengers to use the area.

 

[BestWestern]

Playing devil's advocate, perhaps these trains that are too short at 3 carriages and were prevented from being extended should not have any room reserved for 1st. Space on those services is a scarcity, so the premium product isn't just an optional extra, it's draining essential capacity. That's why people believe it's right and proper for Standard class passengers to use the area.

I don't disagree that the use of space for First could well be questioned, but whilst it is there the rules apply, rightly or wrongly. What you suggest is that people may think they have a 'moral highground' argument? I would suggest that TOC prosecution teams, the law, and the courts, may all feel differently. Sadly, some people discover this at substantial cost.

 

[Starmill]

Nobody was being permitted to sit in First Class on the 1836 from Leeds on Thursday despite there being available seats. It was almost impossible to board it was so full. It didn't used to be like this until it became the first train for Off-Peak Day tickets to Dewsbury and Huddersfield. Good show as usual there TP. Really providing value for money to someone who has paid £20 for a ticket to Manchester.

 

[Ianigsy]

The trouble with declassifying First on the 185s is that there aren't enough seats or space for it to make much of a difference. On most services between Leeds and Manchester it's at least half full, so on a service which is so overcrowded as to justify declassifying, it's probably only going to seat about another 8-10 people.

My experiences have varied over time- I stood from Piccadilly to Leeds a few years back on a Sunday afternoon train where the line was that anybody who wanted to sit in First would have to pay for the upgrade, and the general feeling was that TPE were milking the discomfort of standing passengers. There's no financial incentive for a TOC to provide enough Standard seats if they can fill First with upgrades and make a few quid on it.

I've also (while travelling with First advances or on one occasion a full First Class ticket- I tend to treat myself when going back to my parents at Christmas) been asked by the conductor whether I minded a group of women sitting in First from Warrington to Liverpool (not quite a hen party, just a girls' night out, I think) and had tangerine peel chucked at me by a group of young men who boarded at Manchester and may well not have had First Class tickets, but it was the old problem of 2x185 on Liverpool trains and there was no official to be seen.

When Old TPE reintroduced First on the 158s, I saw it at the time as at least partly an ORCATS raid on the ECML between York and Newcastle- I think this was before Cross Country were running twice an hour north of York so it would have been for a bigger share of the market. I do think that one of the main target markets is still people travelling long distance to Manchester Airport - I do it myself, and I think it's partly the same principle as buying a pass for an airport lounge in that it just makes your holiday a bit more comfortable.

 

[randyrippley]

back in the days of Peaks on the Midland.....on London bound expresses the guards often used to collect all single tickets after leaving Leicester or Nottingham, meaning there was no way to tell what ticket you had. Guess what happened next.........
I'm convinced it was a trade unionist's way of striking back against the elite

 

[cjp]

Playing devil's advocate, perhaps these trains that are too short at 3 carriages and were prevented from being extended should not have any room reserved for 1st. Space on those services is a scarcity, so the premium product isn't just an optional extra, it's draining essential capacity. That's why people believe it's right and proper for Standard class passengers to use the area.

Train companies sadly are not philanthropic and move trains around to make money. Capacity is a way of making money, charging a premium when they can makes more money.

If I pay extra I want the extra like a comfortable seat in decent surroundings.
If someone else wants what I have (called envy) then they can pay as I have.

 

[nw1]

Train companies sadly are not philanthropic and move trains around to make money. Capacity is a way of making money, charging a premium when they can makes more money.

If I pay extra I want the extra like a comfortable seat in decent surroundings.
If someone else wants what I have (called envy) then they can pay as I have.

Sadly the problem with the way that things are run these days. Public services "should be" run on philanthropic grounds but sadly that POV isn't popular amongst politicians these days.

I do think that there is a basic right to a seat though (at least on anything longer-distance than an Underground or metro service where standing is reasonably acceptable).

It's fair enough to charge a Penalty Fare for unauthorised use of first class.. but I do think that a system where profit is put before the need to provide seats is not a good one and the train companies need to accept some responsibility as well as us to provide enough seats to meet demand where this is physically possible with the maximum train length and paths available. If new trains have to be bought, so be it (and this is another aspect where privatisation causes difficulties versus a public service - as private companies have to consider shareholders ahead of customers). I don't think paying a full-price Standard ticket and then having to stand is terribly acceptable in all honesty - while I agree that people shouldn't take the law into their own hands in such situations, maybe the train companies should consider partial refunds if not enough seats are provided, and capacity isn't at maximum - yes I'm thinking XC here whose trains are woefully short to meet demand in many cases - so much so that I actively avoid XC's Bournemouth to Manchester services between Reading and Birmingham unless it's before 0800 or after 2100.

If on the other hand there is no way out of the problem (all paths are taken, all trains maximum length) then fair enough, standing is just something we have to put up with.

 

[johntea]

I had the 'delight' of travelling from Leeds to York yesterday without realizing it was a race day, needless to say it was certainly a bit of a free for all on FTPE!

Needless to say, I decided to get back to Leeds before the racing ended

 

[Old Yard Dog]

There's little if any difference in the quality and spacing of the seats between first and standard class on TPE. All business travellers are paying for is the avoidance of the hoi polloi. It's a rip off.

 

[WestRiding]

FTPE should not have first class, the trains are too short. It is not needed.

 

[Bantamzen]

First Class on TPE does seem to cause a certain degree of polarisation od opinions doesn't it? As a semi-regular user of it I have to say I would prefer to keep it. Even if it were removed and 2x2 seating installed you might get 8-12 seats more at best. And that would hardly ease the chronic overcrowding that many services see.

TPEs biggest problem is that the Pennine routes are major commuter ones, and given that the majority of York-Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester-Liverpool are operated by TPE it is no suprise that 3 car units are often rammed. Hopefully once the new units are in service, and the York- Liverpool services go full IC with other services operating more as semi-fasts the problem will ease.

But as a user of 1st class I would stand by TPEs decision to stick with it. If people are peeved at having to stand when a few seats in 1st might be free, then they can choose to buy 1st in advance, pay an upgrade if available, or choose another service if standing is too much. And I'm speaking as a regular standee on services like the 17:26 Leeds-Skipton where a standing spot is rare with 5 mins to go before departure, let alone a 1st class seat.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Re Scotrail as mentioned above.

A few years ago I was travelling from Wick to Inverness. When I got on the train at Wick which was just two carriages in the summer, ALL the seats in STD Class in both Carriages had reserved labels on them, the only seats that were free were in the small first class section, I asked the guard if I could sit there as I did not want to stand for four hours and he said it was ok to do so. Had a really good journey, stunning scenery and wildlife, even saw some seals where it runs above the coastline. I have also been on West Coast and Hull trains on Friday evening busy services, when after leaving Euston or KX, the guard/T.I. allowed some standees to go in First. He just put labels on seats to show the catering staff that those passengers were not to be given the comp meals/drinks etc.

 

[Master29]

Perhaps there is a case for standard passengers sitting in 1st when a train is crowded. First class passengers may have payed more but you have to remember the fare system is so inconsistent that many in standard could have paid as much as someone in 1st. I often remember travelling back to Cornwall from Westbury on Sunday evenings sitting in 1st drinking coffee feeling smug in the knowledge that I have paid less than the students who get off at Castle Cary have paid for their walk up fares, and they were standing!!

 

[scarby]

There's little if any difference in the quality and spacing of the seats between first and standard class on TPE. All business travellers are paying for is the avoidance of the hoi polloi. It's a rip off.

On the 185s there's a definite difference. There are individual seats, including the coveted 15C, and table seats for two, which are ideal if travelling with a companion. It's also generally much easier to find luggage space.

Incidentally it's not all about "business class". I buy Advance 1st tickets.

The problem isn't the provision of 1st class, it's that the 185s are inadequate for demand. The OP was on a Scarborough service, which is one of several notorious problems - that the same capacity of 3 coach hourly trains is provided in the height of the holiday season as for a wet Wednesday in February.

Hopefully this will all radically improve with the introduction of the class 68 loco-hauled services - 5 coaches, including a 1st section.

 

[ScotTrains]

FTPE should not have first class, the trains are too short. It is not needed.

FTPE should have first class, especially if they think they are an intercity operator now. I've often found first class is popular on the Scottish routes and also the Windermere branch. There is certainly a healthy demand for first class on these routes. The main issue is the lack of supply re standard class. This issue should be addressed, to an extent, with the new longer trains getting introduced on these routes.