Friend reported for possible prosecution (false name & address given)

[yorkie]

Was your friend asked a question such as "If I had not stopped you, would you have walked away from this station without buying a ticket" (or similar)?

 

[Chapeltom]

Sheffield Station, to Meadowhall station, which is just a one stop gap.

My friend just asked if anyone know who to ring, or what number, or what department to ask for etc.

Thanks again everyone by the way.
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That actually surprises me, as I've never encountered this situation before, and as I said, we have always bought tickets on the train. I know I have never bought a ticket from a station before and I've been using the trains for a few years. I've never known it was a legal requirement before. I'd have thought the ticket officers on the train would have said something...

I use an unstaffed station myself (well two actually) as I live close to two. So I can why you'd be shocked. Chinley on the Sheffield to Manchester line and less regularly, Chapel en le Frith on the Buxton to Manchester line. I can see what you mean, although I'm aware its a legal requirement to buy before boarding. I've boarded services at both Manchester and Sheffield to either of the stations mentioned and always seen the guard happy to sell on board. Even to people who've boarded at staffed stations. Sheffield never has (not that I've seen) any form of ticket inspections on the platform so I guess they are trying to "catch people out" at stations like Meadowhall.

 

[Mr X]

I am curious to learn why was your friend asked for name & address? Normally I would expect a ticket to be issued.

One possible reason could be if your friend gave an implausible origin station (ie, attempting to avoid payment of a fare valid for the entire journey made). Another possible reason could be if he did not have any money to pay for the ticket (travelling without means to pay is, in itself, reportable for prosecution). There are other possible reasons though. But it would be very odd for them to immediately ask for that information without having a reason!

Well, like I said earlier, we actually have no idea what is going to happen. He asked if my friend had means to pay for the ticket, which they said they did, and we explained how they withdrew money just before getting on the train in order to pay. And Sheffield was the first station for the train. It started there, so was the only possible origin, as we got off at the next stop.

We're starting to worry a bit now, as we're completely in the dark as to what happening. My friend just panicked when they asked for details suddenly. The only clue we have is the leaflet, which I only got as I was questioning the officers colleague about a phone number, so he wrote it on the leaflet.

Surely we're supposed to know what they need them for?
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I use an unstaffed station myself (well two actually) as I live close to two. So I can why you'd be shocked. Chinley on the Sheffield to Manchester line and less regularly, Chapel en le Frith on the Buxton to Manchester line. I can see what you mean, although I'm aware its a legal requirement to buy before boarding. I've boarded services at both Manchester and Sheffield to either of the stations mentioned and always seen the guard happy to sell on board. Even to people who've boarded at staffed stations. Sheffield never has (not that I've seen) any form of ticket inspections on the platform so I guess they are trying to "catch people out" at stations like Meadowhall.

We had no guard on our train it turned out. Well, there may have been, but our train consisted of 2 trains put together if that makes sense. We were expecting a guard to come out of the drivers 'cabin' that wasn't in use but no guard ever turned up.

 

[Chapeltom]

Well, like I said earlier, we actually have no idea what is going to happen. He asked if my friend had means to pay for the ticket, which they said they did, and we explained how they withdrew money just before getting on the train in order to pay. And Sheffield was the first station for the train. It started there, so was the only possible origin, as we got off at the next stop.

We're starting to worry a bit now, as we're completely in the dark as to what happening. My friend just panicked when they asked for details suddenly. The only clue we have is the leaflet, which I only got as I was questioning the officers colleague about a phone number, so he wrote it on the leaflet.

Surely we're supposed to know what they need them for?

Details sound like they have been taken as Northern *could* (I'd think its likely but can't say definitely) be planning to prosecute as posters have said above.

 

[telstarbox]

With regard to point (3) in your original post, it doesn't really stack up.
This photo shows the tickets machines at Sheffield as you enter the station - nowhere do they say "East Midlands Trains only" or similar, and one machine even has a prominent Northern logo.

If you can't find any contact details on the leaflet, Northern's general contact details are tel 0845 000 0125 or email customer.relations@northernrail.org.

 

[yorkie]

I suspect your friend was asked some questions, but we don't know, so there's nothing we can do.

I think your friend will simply have to wait until Northern ask for a Statement. If they do, I suggest seeking legal advice at that stage.

 

[Chapeltom]

Well, like I said earlier, we actually have no idea what is going to happen. He asked if my friend had means to pay for the ticket, which they said they did, and we explained how they withdrew money just before getting on the train in order to pay. And Sheffield was the first station for the train. It started there, so was the only possible origin, as we got off at the next stop.

We're starting to worry a bit now, as we're completely in the dark as to what happening. My friend just panicked when they asked for details suddenly. The only clue we have is the leaflet, which I only got as I was questioning the officers colleague about a phone number, so he wrote it on the leaflet.

Surely we're supposed to know what they need them for?
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We had no guard on our train it turned out. Well, there may have been, but our train consisted of 2 trains put together if that makes sense. We were expecting a guard to come out of the drivers 'cabin' that wasn't in use but no guard ever turned up.

You did have a guard, who'll have been in the rear unit and I presume with no gangway between the two units, you will have been in the front unit.

 

[yorkie]

We had no guard on our train it turned out. Well, there may have been, but our train consisted of 2 trains put together if that makes sense. We were expecting a guard to come out of the drivers 'cabin' that wasn't in use but no guard ever turned up.

All Northern trains have guards, but this really isn't relevant to the fact that your friend gave false details.

 

[Mr X]

Was your friend asked a question such as "If I had not stopped you, would you have walked away from this station without buying a ticket" (or similar)?

They were asked if they had intended to buy a ticket, to which they answered yes, but I don't think it's the same thing. Annoyingly, he had a ticket machine but was reluctant to use it. My friends first words to the man were 'can I buy a ticket'.
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With regard to point (3) in your original post, it doesn't really stack up.
This photo shows the tickets machines at Sheffield as you enter the station - nowhere do they say "East Midlands Trains only" or similar, and one machine even has a prominent Northern logo.

If you can't find any contact details on the leaflet, Northern's general contact details are tel 0845 000 0125 or email customer.relations@northernrail.org.

I'll be honest with you and say I never even noticed those ticket machines. The comment about the 'East midlands trains' was about the actual booths they have. Which is an observation I made a while back when I did intend to buy before hand one time, but in the end bought on the train. I could be wrong however, as I don't know Sheffield, or the station at all well, as I usually just go straight through to the platform.
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When you said of other people didn't have tickets, I can now see why hock: . Its a stretch where a lot of people will try and evade the fare as they know chances are, the guard won't get to them!

I have travelled from Barnsley too a few times, and never seen anyone purchase tickets before hand. Everyone I have seen has simply purchased on the train.
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Are there no contact details in the leaflet?

None
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I suspect your friend was asked some questions, but we don't know, so there's nothing we can do.

I think your friend will simply have to wait until Northern ask for a Statement. If they do, I suggest seeking legal advice at that stage.

That's part of the problem. As my friend stupidly gave false details, how will they possibly get in touch? What will happen?

 

[causton]

That's part of the problem. As my friend stupidly gave false details, how will they possibly get in touch? What will happen?

Did you not say the address was real? Or did you mean it was a real address but not theirs?

 

[Mr X]

Did you not say the address was real? Or did you mean it was a real address but not theirs?

Real, but their old address

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sheffield Meadowhall is now notorious, as a 6 month per year resident of Chapeltown (which if you regularly go between meadowhall and sheffield you probably know where it is) i can say that i have seen over 100 people caught this year. Learn the lesson, if theres a ticket office its always best to just buy a ticket. Even sometimes with ticket machines.

My friend (not anymore.... ) gave a false address that was his old one, and when the letter turned up they simply sent it back with the guys new address on (they recognised surname so redirected it). Maybe if he gave false name and DOB this wouldn't have happened.
In the case of your friend i agree with some above, to just wait and see what northern come back and say. With false details they may not be able to pursue, they may not bother.

 

[ainsworth74]

Even sometimes with ticket machines.

No sometimes about it if there's a working ticket machine and you have the means to pay and it sells the ticket you want to buy then you must buy before travel.

 

[34D]

And Sheffield was the first station for the train. It started there, so was the only possible origin, as we got off at the next stop.

No. Your origin could well have been somewhere further south, and you changed trains in Sheffield.

For example, if you'd started your journey at somewhere like Dore or Dronfield or Darnall (to give but three examples) you _may_ in certain circumstances be entitled to board the Sheffield-Meadowhall train without a ticket.

I don't think that applies to your friend though. Just in case though, can you confirm how you and your friend arrived in Sheffield city centre, and if it was by train earlier in the day please give full details of any previous train ride and/or tickets held.

Of course, with the matter of the false name and address, it may be that if you did start at Dore station, and have to rush to the other platform at Sheffield, that giving the false name is what causes the prosecution (even if otherwise in eligible).

Was the name given totally wrong? If so, I'm really not sure what to advise him to do for the best. Could perhaps get around the old address by writing to them saying you've moved.

Do note that many people on here will rightly equate what your friend has done with stealing from a shop, or driving a car without insurance.

 

[Mr X]

No. Your origin could well have been somewhere further south, and you changed trains in Sheffield.

For example, if you'd started your journey at somewhere like Dore or Dronfield or Darnall (to give but three examples) you _may_ in certain circumstances be entitled to board the Sheffield-Meadowhall train without a ticket.

I don't think that applies to your friend though. Just in case though, can you confirm how you and your friend arrived in Sheffield city centre, and if it was by train earlier in the day please give full details of any previous train ride and/or tickets held.

Of course, with the matter of the false name and address, it may be that if you did start at Dore station, and have to rush to the other platform at Sheffield, that giving the false name is what causes the prosecution (even if otherwise in eligible).

Was the name given totally wrong? If so, I'm really not sure what to advise him to do for the best. Could perhaps get around the old address by writing to them saying you've moved.

Do note that many people on here will rightly equate what your friend has done with stealing from a shop, or driving a car without insurance.

The name was completely false. Do you believe that they'll send a letter to the old address with the fake name on? If so, would we be able to contact the current occupants, and when the letter comes, if it's a fine, still pay it?

 

[Roylang]

No sometimes about it if there's a working ticket machine and you have the means to pay and it sells the ticket you want to buy then you must buy before travel.

But it is not that simple is it? Some TOCs are pleased to offer ticket sales on board and do not charge a premium for doing so, Grand Central for example. Some will gladly sell on board but charge more, such as Heathrow Express.

I agree that 99% of the time it is better to buy before, but there is, as always, the odd exception.

As for the issue with the OP, as others have said, his friend took a deliberate decision to lie and should suffer the consequences.

Roy

 

[YorkshireBear]

No sometimes about it if there's a working ticket machine and you have the means to pay and it sells the ticket you want to buy then you must buy before travel.

Sorry i meant in the case where there is a card only ticket machine on the platform just to make things easier rather than to make it a requirement. I want to pay by cash because by bank balance is running low, but i still pay by card because it is easier than queueing at leeds, esecially if its a tight connection.

 

[yorkie]

....and when the letter comes, if it's a fine, still pay it?

This thread is going round in circles.

As I said in a PM to you last night:

The advise you need is all in the thread - I think you need to go through it slowly and calmly again.....

As previously stated, a fine can only be imposed by a Court if your friend is found guilty or pleads guilty.

... If they proceed with the prosecution and if your friend either pleads guilty or is found guilty, then a Court will issue a fine (and a criminal record)....

Yes, as stated above, it could indeed lead to prosecution, and if they prosecute and if a guilty plea is made or guilty verdict reached, then a fine would be imposed by the Court. Your friend should be more worried about the criminal record that would result (if found guilty) though.

For the avoidance of any doubt, a Train Company cannot impose a fine.

However as previously mentioned by monty (and also detailed in other threads as recommended to you via PM) it is possible to reach an out of court settlement. This would not be a fine as it would avoid the matter going to court.

Your friend is advised to seek legal advice, as this is a potentially very serious matter.

 

[island]

The name was completely false. Do you believe that they'll send a letter to the old address with the fake name on? If so, would we be able to contact the current occupants, and when the letter comes, if it's a fine, still pay it?

Nobody will get any fines in the post. It is far more likely that the letter will say something to the effect of "A person giving this name and address was spoken to at [whatever station] on [whatever date] regarding the alleged non-payment of a rail fare. Before we take this matter further we would like to ask if you have anything to say about the matter. Please fill in this form and do not send any payment."

 

[Mr X]

Nobody will get any fines in the post. It is far more likely that the letter will say something to the effect of "A person giving this name and address was spoken to at [whatever station] on [whatever date] regarding the alleged non-payment of a rail fare. Before we take this matter further we would like to ask if you have anything to say about the matter. Please fill in this form and do not send any payment."

Ahh, this is what I've been looking for. Thanks

 

[reb0118]

We had no guard on our train it turned out. Well, there may have been, but our train consisted of 2 trains put together if that makes sense. We were expecting a guard to come out of the drivers 'cabin' that wasn't in use but no guard ever turned up.

You did have a guard, who'll have been in the rear unit and I presume with no gangway between the two units, you will have been in the front unit.

All Northern trains have guards, but this really isn't relevant to the fact that your friend gave false details.

Whilst not relevant to your friends predicament as Yorkie has stated you would have had a guard on the train. However, he may have been under instruction not to sell tickets as there was a "sting" on.

With regard to giving false details that was quite silly behaviour from your friend. What might happen now you may ask? A range of scenarios may take place from Northern attempting to contact your friend at the false details provided, being unsuccessful and not pursuing the matter or to passing the details onto the British Transport Police to pursue a probable fraud case. There are other options which lie between these two extremes.

Remember what goes around comes around and railway staff esp guards & RPIs have long memories. To avoid any further hassle your friend should be advised to purchase tickets before travel where facilities exist to do so.

 

[bb21]

3) The ticket facilities in the station all had 'East-Midlands travel' printed on them or something along those lines, yet we weren't travelling with them. Common sense dictates that you wouldn't go there for a ticket for a different company, just as you wouldn't check in at the airport with 'Thomas Cook' if you were actually flying with 'Ryanair'.

I'll be honest with you and say I never even noticed those ticket machines. The comment about the 'East midlands trains' was about the actual booths they have. Which is an observation I made a while back when I did intend to buy before hand one time, but in the end bought on the train. I could be wrong however, as I don't know Sheffield, or the station at all well, as I usually just go straight through to the platform.

So what you told us at the beginning is not something that you actually remember from your observations on the day of the incident?

Also how many friends are in trouble here? I have just read through the whole thread and am still none the wiser.

 

[Anvil1984]

Was it a Northern Rail member of staff who stopped you and your frienda (different companies all join.together for the blocks at Meadowhall.

 

[Mr X]

To avoid any further hassle your friend should be advised to purchase tickets before travel where facilities exist to do so.

It's a shame the first advise we got was from this forum after everything happened. I know I personally, and my my friend says that they too have never heard of this requirement ever. Like I say, we've always purchase on train for years.
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So what you told us at the beginning is not something that you actually remember from your observations on the day of the incident?

Also how many friends are in trouble here? I have just read through the whole thread and am still none the wiser.

Just an update on this.

The thing about 'East Midlands' was an observation I made between a week and two weeks ago, as I remember saying something to someone. However, I did nip in to check today, and they had been covered up with pieces of paper that now said all tickets. How long they'd been there I don't actually know.

Also, just 1 friend. I had a return ticket for a station further down the line so I was fine.
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Was it a Northern Rail member of staff who stopped you and your frienda (different companies all join.together for the blocks at Meadowhall.

He did actually have an East-Midlands jacket on so I presume they're working together.

 

[bb21]

I can sympathise if you live in an area where it has become the norm for tickets to be purchased onboard. Unfortunately as you have found out, this does not absolve you from the legal responsibility to purchase a ticket before boarding.

Unless we know what the letter says, there is very little else we can help you with.

Does your friend still have access to the previous residence?

 

[Mr X]

I can sympathise if you live in an area where it has become the norm for tickets to be purchased onboard. Unfortunately as you have found out, this does not absolve you from the legal responsibility to purchase a ticket before boarding.

Unless we know what the letter says, there is very little else we can help you with.

Does your friend still have access to the previous residence?

Well, my friend is going to decide what to do soon. My gut feeling is that they may write into the train company. Had I know at the time that they were providing false details I'd have stopped them, as I'd spent a good 15 minutes trying to get details about how to contest.

Either way, I'll keep the thread update. Thanks for everyone's help. I'll continue to answer anything someone asks

 

[beeza1]

I joined the forum last week and I am amazed how ignorant I was of the "terms of carriage", I have been using the Hudds to Sheffield line for many years and only found out a few weeks ago the legal obligation to purchase a ticket before boarding at any station with ticket buying facilities, I spoke about this to a work colleague today, he is a former Guard or is it Conductor for Northern, he told me the last thing he wanted when he was on the trains was for everyone to board with a ticket, as he was on commission from all the tickets he sold. This may explain why this practice is commonplace on Northern.

 

[ainsworth74]

This may explain why this practice is commonplace on Northern.

That might be part of it, however, I feel that there are two other, more important, factors involved that make it commonplace in the North. Firstly the policy of the 1960s/70s called 'Paytrain' which was when many booking offices were destaffed and passengers had to buy their tickets on board. Secondly (and linked to the first) the lack of booking offices and also ticket vending machines. Many stations in the North have no ticket issuing facilities at all and haven't for decades meaning that people get into a habit. Take my local line between Darlington and Saltburn for example. There are fourteen stations, of which five have booking offices and one has only a TVM meaning a total of six stations have faculties to buy tickets. This is a recent change (within the last six months) previously only four stations had booking offices. Many lines are similar with only a few stations having facilities to issue tickets.

This coupled with Northern guards not bothering to enforce the rules leads to people not knowing that they in fact have to buy a ticket if the facilities to do so exist (with a couple of exceptions).

 

[sheff1]

That might be part of it, however, I feel that there are two other, more important, factors involved that make it commonplace in the North. Firstly the policy of the 1980s (I think though maybe it was 70s) called 'Paytrain' which was when many booking offices were destaffed and passengers had to buy their tickets on board. Secondly (and linked to the first) the lack of booking offices and also ticket vending machines. Many stations in the North have no ticket issuing facilities at all and haven't for decades meaning that people get into a habit.

Late 60s/early 70s for Paytrains. No ticket issuing facilities at many stations for 40+ years.

Not only that, but you had to buy tickets for Paytrains on the train - booking offices, where they still existed, would not sell them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Late 60s/early 70s for Paytrains. No ticket issuing facilities at many stations for 40+ years.

Oh thanks for the correction I hadn't realised it was that early!