Friend reported for possible prosecution (false name & address given)

[Mr X]

Ok guys, I'm new to the forum, so apologies if this is in the wrong place.

Basically, today I was travelling with a friend from a station which has a ticket office. When we arrived at our destination, we were both asked to produce tickets. I had a return from earlier that day, but my friend didn't. As a result, they were given a fine.

So I have a few questions if that's ok as if I was to contest the ticket, it'd be useful to know how any of these would hold up. (everything is true by the way)

1) The guy basically said that as we got on at a station with ticket facilities, we must have bought tickets. However, we live in an area where the local station that we normally use has no facilities, so all we've ever known is that we buy our tickets on the train. For example, the return ticket I personally bought was bought on the train (but on the return journey, we got off at an earlier stop which is allowed). We have used the main station (one with ticket facilities) multiple times, and have always paid on the train. Never has a conductor said that we should have bought a ticket at a station. We had no idea that at a station with facilities we had to 'legally buy a ticket'. It all seems a lot like double standards to be honest. How can we be expected to know?

2) We always buy on the train (we have numerous old tickets), but this time, no conductor came. The train we were on was made of 4 cars, but was actually 2 trains put together, if that makes sense. (Sorry for my lack of knowledge of the technical jargon). So maybe he was on the 'other' train, but either way, we had no way of purchasing a ticket. My friend even took out money from the cash machine just before getting on the train in order to pay for the ticket. That would be on their bank statement. Could this be used to show intent to purchase?

3) The ticket facilities in the station all had 'East-Midlands travel' printed on them or something along those lines, yet we weren't travelling with them. Common sense dictates that you wouldn't go there for a ticket for a different company, just as you wouldn't check in at the airport with 'Thomas Cook' if you were actually flying with 'Ryanair'.

I would appreciate any comments on those points, although that isn't the real problem.
The main problem is that my friend when asked for detail, provided details that were completely false, such as a fake name, a fake date of birth and their previous address. You don't have to point out that this was incredibly stupid, as me and my friends family have already gone through this with them. However, as it was a real address, just not the current one, my real main question is:-

What do you advise that they do now?

There are a few other points to be made however.
The guy only told us the 'whatever you say may be used in court' stuff, right at the end, as we were just about to set off. We also never actually knew about him being a 'police' officer. (I can only presume he was as he read out the 'whatever you say may be used in court' stuff).
My friend said they had no ID, so the only information they have is on that form, which is all false, although the address and post code were real, so when they checked, it came back as ok.

What do you think will happen now. Are they traceable? When they find out the details provided are false, will they resort to CCTV etc? Could this potentially lead to a criminal record?

Any help will be much appreciated, as I have a very nervous and worried friend sat beside me as I type this.

(There may have been other points that I wanted to make, that I forgot to mention, which I will type in other comments if I remember them)

 

[telstarbox]

The guy only told us the 'whatever you say may be used in court' stuff, right at the end, as we were just about to set off. We also never actually knew about him being a 'police' officer. (I can only presume he was as he read out the 'whatever you say may be used in court' stuff).

He would have been an RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector), not a police officer. As he has been trained under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) he was allowed to caution your friend.

My friend even took out money from the cash machine just before getting on the train in order to pay for the ticket. That would be on their bank statement. Could this be used to show intent to purchase?

No, but your friend has shown intent to avoid the fare which is a criminal offence.

 

[Mr X]

He would have been an RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector), not a police officer. As he has been trained under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) he was allowed to caution your friend.

Oh, OK, well that makes sense I guess. Although, surely the whole 'speech' should have been said right at the beginning, not after everything had been said and done? Not that that matters too much.

 

[telstarbox]

Was your friend offered the chance to pay on the spot?

 

[Mr X]

Was your friend offered the chance to pay on the spot?

No.

We asked if we could, and the guy just said 'No' then continued straight away.

 

[ainsworth74]

So I have a few questions if that's ok as if I was to contest the ticket, it'd be useful to know how any of these would hold up. (everything is true by the way)

None of them I'm sorry to say.

But as you've identified this is the least of your friends concerns. By giving totally false details they have laid themselves totally open to a criminal prosecution (in which a guilty verdict would mean a criminal record as well as a fine) under RORA S5.3 (c). I assume they've been given a penalty fare and the details of how to pay it?

 

[telstarbox]

We have used the main station (one with ticket facilities) multiple times, and have always paid on the train. Never has a conductor said that we should have bought a ticket at a station. We had no idea that at a station with facilities we had to 'legally buy a ticket'. It all seems a lot like double standards to be honest. How can we be expected to know?

This may be the case but it's in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage which apply to all rail journeys:

You must:
• Have a valid ticket or tickets for the whole of your journey, at the time you want to travel and on the route and trains you want to use. Unless otherwise indicated, you must purchase your ticket before boarding the train you intend to use.

Some railway guards will sell tickets to passengers who board at staffed stations despite this condition (particularly on one train company in the north) which unfortunately can cause confusion, but the above condition should still apply.

 

[Mr X]

None of them I'm sorry to say.

But as you've identified this is the least of your friends concerns. By giving totally false details they have laid themselves totally open to a criminal prosecution (in which a guilty verdict would mean a criminal record as well as a fine) under RORA S5.3 (c). I assume they've been given a penalty fare and the details of how to pay it?

No, it happened today, and they said they'd contact them. Quite a few people on our train were in the same situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks for all responding quickly by the way. Much appreciated.

 

[wintonian]

I won't get too involved here, but giving a false name/ address is an offence under railway bylaw.

Generally you are obliged to purchases tickets before travel unless facilities are not available at the station in which case you much buy them at the first reasonable opportunity.

Nearly all machines sell tickets to all rail stations in the country and all tickets are valid on all operators on the relevant permitted routes unless they are advance purchase tickets or say something like "East Coast only" or "Virgin only" for example.

I'll leave it at that as others are far more knowledgeable than me in this area.

 

[Oscar]

I understand that being used to paying the guard on a train and being unaccustomed to Penalty Fares can sometimes help people in this situation if the relevant prosecutions department is lenient. However, I imagine that giving false details means that such leniency will not be considered.

 

[Mr X]

But, my question is, how can they still be given a fine, when they have no details to get in touch? Could they still manage it?

 

[Flamingo]

Well, if your "friend" travels by train again and is recognised by the RPI, they could be stopped and held until British Transport Police are called and the correct details are given, and then prosecuted under RORA 5.3(c), and they will then be the proud holder of a criminal record, and all the hassle that involves (and it will serve him right, I have zero sympathy if it happens).

I's start travelling by bus (or buy a bike) if I was him.

 

[Monty]

Ok guys, I'm new to the forum, so apologies if this is in the wrong place.

Basically, today I was travelling with a friend from a station which has a ticket office. When we arrived at our destination, we were both asked to produce tickets. I had a return from earlier that day, but my friend didn't. As a result, they were given a fine.

So I have a few questions if that's ok as if I was to contest the ticket, it'd be useful to know how any of these would hold up. (everything is true by the way)

1) The guy basically said that as we got on at a station with ticket facilities, we must have bought tickets. However, we live in an area where the local station that we normally use has no facilities, so all we've ever known is that we buy our tickets on the train. For example, the return ticket I personally bought was bought on the train (but on the return journey, we got off at an earlier stop which is allowed). We have used the main station (one with ticket facilities) multiple times, and have always paid on the train. Never has a conductor said that we should have bought a ticket at a station. We had no idea that at a station with facilities we had to 'legally buy a ticket'. It all seems a lot like double standards to be honest. How can we be expected to know?)

As a passenger the onus is on you to purchase a ticket before you board if there are facilities available at the station, this is explained in more detail in Condition 2 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. You are only entitled to purchase a ticket on the train if there are no ticketing facilities or you were unable to purchase the exact ticket you require at the station where you began your journey.

2) We always buy on the train (we have numerous old tickets), but this time, no conductor came. The train we were on was made of 4 cars, but was actually 2 trains put together, if that makes sense. (Sorry for my lack of knowledge of the technical jargon).

The guard's main concern is the safe operation the doors and dispatch from the station, not to mention your safety. He may have been unable to check the section of the train you were located in. It's another reason TOCs discourage passengers from buying on board as you cannot guarantee the guard can always reach you. That said what was stopping you from looking out for the guard and trying to approach him yourself?

So maybe he was on the 'other' train, but either way, we had no way of purchasing a ticket. My friend even took out money from the cash machine just before getting on the train in order to pay for the ticket. That would be on their bank statement. Could this be used to show intent to purchase??)

But you did, your friend could have purchased a ticket from the station you began your journey from, But he decided not to. Having funds on you does not show intent to purchase, showing a bank statement will do little to nothing to help your friends case.

3) The ticket facilities in the station all had 'East-Midlands travel' printed on them or something along those lines, yet we weren't travelling with them. Common sense dictates that you wouldn't go there for a ticket for a different company, just as you wouldn't check in at the airport with 'Thomas Cook' if you were actually flying with 'Ryanair'

Up to you unfortunately to check if the ticket you want is available from the facilities provided, the railway is a world away from the airlines and is far more intergrated. Generally tickets a valid on any TOCs that serve the stations the ticket is valid for unless stated otherwise.

I would appreciate any comments on those points, although that isn't the real problem.
The main problem is that my friend when asked for detail, provided details that were completely false, such as a fake name, a fake date of birth and their previous address. You don't have to point out that this was incredibly stupid, as me and my friends family have already gone through this with them. However, as it was a real address, just not the current one, my real main question is:-

What do you advise that they do now?

There are a few other points to be made however.
The guy only told us the 'whatever you say may be used in court' stuff, right at the end, as we were just about to set off. We also never actually knew about him being a 'police' officer. (I can only presume he was as he read out the 'whatever you say may be used in court' stuff).
My friend said they had no ID, so the only information they have is on that form, which is all false, although the address and post code were real, so when they checked, it came back as ok.

What do you think will happen now. Are they traceable? When they find out the details provided are false, will they resort to CCTV etc? Could this potentially lead to a criminal record?

Any help will be much appreciated, as I have a very nervous and worried friend sat beside me as I type this.

(There may have been other points that I wanted to make, that I forgot to mention, which I will type in other comments if I remember them)

Supplying false details to a railway official is a criminal offence and could very well land your friend in hot water, infact if you read through your statement carefully any half competent RPI could construct a pretty solid prosecutions report and argue that your friend had no real intention for paying for his rail journey at all. My advice to your friend is to pay the penalty fare and don't even consider contesting it, learn from his mistakes and move on.

 

[Mr X]

Well, if your "friend" travels by train again and is recognised by the RPI, they could be stopped and held until British Transport Police are called and the correct details are given, and then prosecuted under RORA 5.3(c), and they will then be the proud holder of a criminal record, and all the hassle that involves (and it will serve him right, I have zero sympathy if it happens).

I's start travelling by bus (or buy a bike) if I was him.

I can assure you that my 'friend' is indeed a friend, and not myself as you are implying.


Anyway, what is the next procedure that the rail company will take. Will they check that the person lives at the address, or will they send the fine to that house, just addressed to the name given? If they mail it, would it be possible for the fine to be paid still, just under that name?

If not, what do you reckon would be the consequences of ringing them up and explaining what happened? Would they prosecute do you reckon? Or settle for the fine payment plus perhaps a bit more?

 

[Monty]

I've just noticed it appears your friend has not been issued a penalty fare, but indeed been reported for fare evasion. To quote Flamingo:

Well, if your "friend" travels by train again and is recognised by the RPI, they could be stopped and held until British Transport Police are called and the correct details are given, and then prosecuted under RORA 5.3(c), and they will then be the proud holder of a criminal record, and all the hassle that involves (and it will serve him right, I have zero sympathy if it happens).

I's start travelling by bus (or buy a bike) if I was him.

This, if your friend had any decency he would write (with is real name) into the prosecutions department of the TOC concerned with a grovelling apology and request to settle the matter out of court and offer to pay any fees incurred. Otherwise he had better plan to be looking over his shoulder alot if he intends on using the train in the future.

 

[Mr X]

My advice to your friend is to pay the penalty fare and don't even consider contesting it, learn from his mistakes and move on.

This is where I'm confused though. My friend actually hasn't received a penalty fare or anything, we just presume that this is what it is. The officer only took details and said that the company would be in touch. We've never actually been told what they were took for.

What do you think they should do?

 

[ainsworth74]

I've just noticed it appears your friend has not been issued a penalty fare, but indeed been reported for fare evasion. To quote Flamingo:



This, if your friend had any decency he would write (with is real name) into the prosecutions department of the TOC concerned with a grovelling apology and request to settle the matter out of court and offer to pay any fees incurred. Otherwise he had better plan to be looking over his shoulder alot if he intends on using the train in the future.

However I'd advise that whilst this is probably the correct course of action it would be best to wait and see what the TOC concerned actually write and say. I'm not convinced that just because they don't have the name will mean that you friend will be able to just ignore such letters.

What do you think they should do?

As above wait and see what the TOC concerned have to say. Which TOC are we talking about if you don't mind saying?

 

[causton]

This is where I'm confused though. My friend actually hasn't received a penalty fare or anything, we just presume that this is what it is. The officer only took details and said that the company would be in touch. We've never actually been told what they were took for.

What do you think they should do?

That was because of a misunderstanding of Monty's -- they thought that your friend had just received a penalty fare, however this is a lot more serious if they have been reported for potential prosecution... let's just say your friend should either:

a) Avoid trains for the rest of his life
or
b) Write to the TOC explaining that he knows he has done wrong and will not do it again, has learnt from his mistakes and is prepared to pay any costs and fees required for the TOC to settle out of court!

 

[yorkie]

As a result, they were given a fine.

But, my question is, how can they still be given a fine, when they have no details to get in touch? Could they still manage it?

I think there is some confusion here.

The thread title refers to a Penalty Fare (which I will now change, as there is no Penalty Fare involved), which is a fare that is payable under certain circumstances for an honest mistake.

In this case your friend acted in a way that the Train Company did not treat as an honest mistake and instead is investigating the matter with a view to possible prosecution. If they proceed with the prosecution and if your friend either pleads guilty or is found guilty, then a Court will issue a fine (and a criminal record).

Your friend may wish to seek legal advice.

 

[Mr X]

However I'd advise that whilst this is probably the correct course of action it would be best to wait and see what the TOC concerned actually write and say. I'm not convinced that just because they don't have the name will mean that you friend will be able to just ignore such letters.



As above wait and see what the TOC concerned have to say. Which TOC are we talking about if you don't mind saying?

Can I ask what a TOC is?

 

[yorkie]

Can I ask what a TOC is?

Train Operating Company or simply Train Company.

http://www.atoc.org/train-companies

 

[Mr X]

I think there is some confusion here.

The thread title refers to a Penalty Fare (which I will now change, as there is no Penalty Fare involved), which is a fare that is payable under certain circumstances for an honest mistake.

In this case your friend acted in a way that the Train Company did not treat as an honest mistake and instead is investigating the matter with a view to possible prosecution. If they proceed with the prosecution and if your friend either pleads guilty or is found guilty, then a Court will issue a fine (and a criminal record).

Your friend may wish to seek legal advice.

My apologies about the mix-up, there was a break down in communication between me and my friend. My friend says that they cannot be 100% sure that nothing about a fine was said, but we took nothing away with us.

However, as I spoke to the officer colleague, I was asking questions like, 'what number do I need for us to ring to contest this fine' and he seemed to indicate that it would be a fine, though I can't honestly remember if he said it or not. My mind is playing tricks on me.

I did get a leaflet off him though when I asked him for the number, which is titled Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Unit, and looking at it now, it says they will review the case, and write to my friend in due course to notify them of their decision. Does this mean it could still be a fine. It does also say 'MAY lead to prosecution'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Train Operating Company or simply Train Company.

http://www.atoc.org/train-companies

Ahh, Northern Rail.

 

[yorkie]

I did get a leaflet off him though when I asked him for the number, which is titled Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Unit, and looking at it now, it says they will review the case, and write to my friend in due course to notify them of their decision. Does this mean it could still be a fine. It does also say 'MAY lead to prosecution'.

Yes, as stated above, it could indeed lead to prosecution, and if they prosecute and if a guilty plea is made or guilty verdict reached, then a fine would be imposed by the Court. Your friend should be more worried about the criminal record that would result (if found guilty) though.

 

[Chapeltom]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My apologies about the mix-up, there was a break down in communication between me and my friend. My friend says that they cannot be 100% sure that nothing about a fine was said, but we took nothing away with us.

However, as I spoke to the officer colleague, I was asking questions like, 'what number do I need for us to ring to contest this fine' and he seemed to indicate that it would be a fine, though I can't honestly remember if he said it or not. My mind is playing tricks on me.

I did get a leaflet off him though when I asked him for the number, which is titled Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Unit, and looking at it now, it says they will review the case, and write to my friend in due course to notify them of their decision. Does this mean it could still be a fine. It does also say 'MAY lead to prosecution'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ahh, Northern Rail.

I'd also like to point out Northern have being very strict recently on the subject of train evasion. It is something we are becoming used to hearing on here. If you don't mind me asking, where were you travelling to/from?

 

[Mr X]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'd also like to point out Northern have being very strict recently on the subject of train evasion. It is something we are becoming used to hearing on here. If you don't mind me asking, where were you travelling to/from?

I don't want to sound rude, but could I just quickly ask what for. I know you're trying to help me, I'm just paranoid at the moment
I'd be happy to tell you however.

 

[Chapeltom]

I don't want to sound rude, but could I just quickly ask what for. I know you're trying to help me, I'm just paranoid at the moment
I'd be happy to tell you however.

Well it will probably help some posters put the story into a bit of context.

And its just out of interest, it has occurred to me a lot of the fare evasion posts involving Northern seem to be on the 'West' side of the Pennines and in the North West. I do my commute along a couple of lines in the north west and travel quite a bit over into Yorkshire.

 

[yorkie]

I don't want to sound rude, but could I just quickly ask what for. I know you're trying to help me, I'm just paranoid at the moment
I'd be happy to tell you however.

It could have helped your friend if it is determined that there was no adequate facility for issuing his ticket at his origin. However given that he has given false details I am not sure there's any relevance now (other than satisfying our curiosity).

I am curious to learn why was your friend asked for name & address? Normally I would expect a ticket to be issued.

One possible reason could be if your friend gave an implausible origin station (ie, attempting to avoid payment of a fare valid for the entire journey made). Another possible reason could be if he did not have any money to pay for the ticket (travelling without means to pay is, in itself, reportable for prosecution). There are other possible reasons though. But it would be very odd for them to immediately ask for that information without having a reason!

 

[Mr X]

Well it will probably help some posters put the story into a bit of context.

And its just out of interest, it has occurred to me a lot of the fare evasion posts involving Northern seem to be on the 'West' side of the Pennines and in the North West. I do a lot of travelling in that sort of area that's all.

Sheffield Station, to Meadowhall station, which is just a one stop gap.

My friend just asked if anyone know who to ring, or what number, or what department to ask for etc.

Thanks again everyone by the way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd also like to point out Northern have being very strict recently on the subject of train evasion. It is something we are becoming used to hearing on here.

That actually surprises me, as I've never encountered this situation before, and as I said, we have always bought tickets on the train. I know I have never bought a ticket from a station before and I've been using the trains for a few years. I've never known it was a legal requirement before. I'd have thought the ticket officers on the train would have said something...

 

[Chapeltom]

Sheffield Station, to Meadowhall station, which is just a one stop gap.

My friend just asked if anyone know who to ring, or what number, or what department to ask for etc.

Thanks again everyone by the way.

When you said of other people didn't have tickets, I can now see why hock: . Its a stretch where a lot of people will try and evade the fare as they know chances are, the guard won't get to them!

 

[wintonian]

I did get a leaflet off him though when I asked him for the number, which is titled Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Unit, and looking at it now, it says they will review the case, and write to my friend in due course to notify them of their decision. Does this mean it could still be a fine. It does also say 'MAY lead to prosecution'..

My friend just asked if anyone know who to ring, or what number, or what department to ask for etc.

Are there no contact details in the leaflet?