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Free Bus Travel for young people: Soon to be in England.

YorkRailFan

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Why do children need free bus transport ? They can kick around in the local park (as I was expected to do) or if they prefer a change of scene, use their pocket money to go further
Some will need a bus to get to a park, such as those in rural areas who normally depend on parents to chauffeur them. Let's say a return fare is £6, they could use that £6 to instead buy a small popcorn when watching a film.
Exactly!! And come September 1st when they all return to school it once again becomes the burden of the parents to pay for fares.
Because the children will have less free time as they're in school... If they regularly use a bus to school, they'll likely have a bus pass so won't need chauffeuring constantly. There's less of a burden on parents to pay for activities for their children when their children are in school.
 
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M60lad

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Are children meant to be issued a ticket? I've seen mixed responses to this in/around Greater Manchester, some drivers will just wave them on even if they ask for a ticket and other drivers will actually issue them with a ticket.
 

Mark L

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Are children meant to be issued a ticket? I've seen mixed responses to this in/around Greater Manchester, some drivers will just wave them on even if they ask for a ticket and other drivers will actually issue them with a ticket.
Probably depends on the operator /LTA. In London drivers can’t issue a ticket as the print function on the ETM has been disabled.
 

mayneway

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Are children meant to be issued a ticket? I've seen mixed responses to this in/around Greater Manchester, some drivers will just wave them on even if they ask for a ticket and other drivers will actually issue them with a ticket.
In Manchester yes. The journey needs to be recorded so the operator or authority gets the reimbursement and the passenger needs proof of travel.
 

KHCT

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Some will need a bus to get to a park, such as those in rural areas who normally depend on parents to chauffeur them. Let's say a return fare is £6, they could use that £6 to instead buy a small popcorn when watching a film.

Because the children will have less free time as they're in school... If they regularly use a bus to school, they'll likely have a bus pass so won't need chauffeuring constantly. There's less of a burden on parents to pay for activities for their children when their children are in school.
None of which explains why the taxpayer should fund free travel for children. We'd all have more money to spend if everything was 'free'.
 

mayneway

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None of which explains why the taxpayer should fund free travel for children. We'd all have more money to spend if everything was 'free'.
It’s a gimmick to make people think our new PM is giving something back to his voters when in typical Andy style (we’ve seen this for years in Manchester) he gives very loudly with one hand and very quietly takes away with the other!

He kept fares low in Manchester when the caps were increase elsewhere but council tax in all 10 boroughs of GM was increased by he maximum 5% to fund his projects!
 

YorkRailFan

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None of which explains why the taxpayer should fund free travel for children. We'd all have more money to spend if everything was 'free'.
Its money spent that puts back into the economy. Take the example I used of popcorn at a cinema, money that would've been used on a bus ticket is now being spent on the high Street. It could be spent buying an ice cream or a coffee from your local independent cafe, its reinvested into the local economy which is a win in my opinion.
 

43055

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Are children meant to be issued a ticket? I've seen mixed responses to this in/around Greater Manchester, some drivers will just wave them on even if they ask for a ticket and other drivers will actually issue them with a ticket.
Not Manchester but at my company we have to at least print the ticket so its recorded that a child has travelled. If they take the ticket or not is up to them. So far I have had no issues except one where the bus had to be run off but the biggest bug bare is where they just walk on without saying anything.
 

Djgr

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None of which explains why the taxpayer should fund free travel for children. We'd all have more money to spend if everything was 'free'.
If the buses were going to run anyway and the children were not going to travel then there are no additonal costs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It’s a gimmick to make people think our new PM is giving something back to his voters when in typical Andy style (we’ve seen this for years in Manchester) he gives very loudly with one hand and very quietly takes away with the other!

He kept fares low in Manchester when the caps were increase elsewhere but council tax in all 10 boroughs of GM was increased by he maximum 5% to fund his projects!
This just sounds like political diatribe.
 

geoffk

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If the buses were going to run anyway and the children were not going to travel then there are no additional costs.
But it doesn't work like that. Operators expect to be reimbursed for "revenue foregone", as they are for ENCTS passes.
 

mayneway

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If the buses were going to run anyway and the children were not going to travel then there are no additonal costs.
Sorry I’m confused. As a driver Im told to record every child that travels for the government reimbursement, so where exactly does that reimbursement come from and if the bus is running anyway why does the operator get a reimbursement?
 

Djgr

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Sorry I’m confused. As a driver Im told to record every child that travels for the government reimbursement, so where exactly does that reimbursement come from and if the bus is running anyway why does the operator get a reimbursement?
Wooden dollars. Consider the big picture.
 

mayneway

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Wooden dollars. Consider the big picture.
So you can’t answer the question.
There is no bigger picture. Everytime a child boards a bus and asks for a free ticket it’s recorded and the operator is reimbursed for that journey. The money for the reimbursement ultimately comes from us tax payers.

I’ll answer the question you seem unable to!
 

satters

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more and more is being taken from working class tax payers, against a disproportionate number sucking the country dry and the politicians are encouraging it
 

Mark L

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So you can’t answer the question.
There is no bigger picture. Everytime a child boards a bus and asks for a free ticket it’s recorded and the operator is reimbursed for that journey. The money for the reimbursement ultimately comes from us tax payers.

I’ll answer the question you seem unable to!
There will be some revenue lost as children who were going to travel anyway won’t be paying. There will also be journeys made that would not have happened in the absence of the “free” travel initiative. Much as with the ENCTS there is a reimbursement model that seeks to ensure that the operator is no better or worse off than it would otherwise have been. From speaking to a couple of operators they are of the view that they are worse off!
 

mayneway

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more and more is being taken from working class tax payers, against a disproportionate number sucking the country dry and the politicians are encouraging it
I agree with you. There are some areas that have little or no bus services because of a ‘lack of funding’ this money could have been better spent giving these communities a better service.
 

GusB

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more and more is being taken from working class tax payers, against a disproportionate number sucking the country dry and the politicians are encouraging it
I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make here as you've made a fairly general statement, but schemes such as this will benefit working class taxpayers because it's one less thing they have to worry about paying for. A day out with two adults and three kids can be expensive by public transport and not every family has access to a car; by allowing the kids go free it may allow some families to afford to have a day out that would have otherwise been unaffordable. The money saved might then be spent on other things like fish and chips, ice cream or whatever you care to mention - it doesn't really matter as the money will be fed back into the economy. Some of that money will go back to the exchequer through businesses paying income/corporation taxes, and also through VAT.

Sadly, some people have become fixated on the issue of anti-social behaviour while completely ignoring the fact that many more will be taking advantage of their free travel and not causing trouble. I'm not sure if it's a general disdain for young people or perhaps a bit of jealousy because it's something they didn't get when they were younger, but it's becoming rather tiresome to hear the same voices moaning about a scheme that's designed to make people's lives a bit easier when the cost of everything else has rocketed in recent years.

I assume that the "disproportionate number sucking the country dry" you refer to are the billionaires who do their utmost to avoid paying taxes, right?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make here as you've made a fairly general statement, but schemes such as this will benefit working class taxpayers because it's one less thing they have to worry about paying for. A day out with two adults and three kids can be expensive by public transport and not every family has access to a car; by allowing the kids go free it may allow some families to afford to have a day out that would have otherwise been unaffordable. The money saved might then be spent on other things like fish and chips, ice cream or whatever you care to mention - it doesn't really matter as the money will be fed back into the economy. Some of that money will go back to the exchequer through businesses paying income/corporation taxes, and also through VAT.

Sadly, some people have become fixated on the issue of anti-social behaviour while completely ignoring the fact that many more will be taking advantage of their free travel and not causing trouble. I'm not sure if it's a general disdain for young people or perhaps a bit of jealousy because it's something they didn't get when they were younger, but it's becoming rather tiresome to hear the same voices moaning about a scheme that's designed to make people's lives a bit easier when the cost of everything else has rocketed in recent years.

I assume that the "disproportionate number sucking the country dry" you refer to are the billionaires who do their utmost to avoid paying taxes, right?
Unfortunately, we seem to have some people who are very black/white, or on/off, in their views without appreciating nuance... though this might also be reflection of times today?? (strokes chin)

Anti-social behaviour will be experienced in some instances and locations, and not in others. I've seen perfectly well behaved kids taking advantage of the scheme and been perfectly well behaved. I do think it may be an issue in certain places and times, and for whatever reason, bus stations can be a magnet for bored kids anyway and always have been bizarrely. That's not to say that we shrug our shoulders and perhaps the issue of unaccompanied kids (esp travelling after 6pm) should've been envisaged for safeguarding reasons in any case.

There is a real question of how this schemes are being funded and the benefits that accrue. For this, it enables kids to head into town for nothing, and so a theoretical saving for the hard pressed parents. The question is how many of those journeys would've taken place before and so are the parents saving anything? My observations, FWIW, is that many kids are early-mid teens and they're heading out with friends. For that reason, I'm less convinced of the argument on the merits that this will somehow release benefits back into the economy and be a net benefit in terms of economic activity. They're not saving money... they're spending it in a different place but with a bus fare that is being paid by the tax payer. Undoubtedly, there will be some families getting a benefit from it but in the round, I don't know if it's really a good use of money.

At times on this forums, it does almost seem like heresy to suggest that giving transport away for free isn't a good thing. It'll reduce car use, improve the environment, etc are the common refrains - it doesn't. The experience in Tallinn was that it didn't change car use - what it did do was encourage people to catch a free bus, rather than walk or cycle https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2213624X17300858

We shall see what benefit the country sees in the economy but I suspect it'll be negligible.

ps @GusB - I'm with you on the businesses, billionaires and oligarchs who employ complex financial wheezes and royalty payments to avoid paying tax....Starbucks!
 

Djgr

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So you can’t answer the question.
There is no bigger picture. Everytime a child boards a bus and asks for a free ticket it’s recorded and the operator is reimbursed for that journey. The money for the reimbursement ultimately comes from us tax payers.

I’ll answer the question you seem unable to!
The big picture is that the operator will have gained the same amount of £s as the taxpayer has lost.

This is indeed a redistribution but no increase in overall costs has occurred.
 

KHCT

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Its money spent that puts back into the economy. Take the example I used of popcorn at a cinema, money that would've been used on a bus ticket is now being spent on the high Street. It could be spent buying an ice cream or a coffee from your local independent cafe, its reinvested into the local economy which is a win in my opinion.
Why not make petrol and diesel free then? And gas and electricity? Or mortgages? After all, every penny not spent on a bill could then be spent in the local economy.
I assume you're also not in favour of pensioners getting free travel?
Not really, no. If I was giving out free bus rides I'd much rather find a better qualifying metric than age. At least link it to income, perhaps pension credit entitlement. What is the logic of a wealthy retired couple getting free rides when their minimum wage cleaner doesn't?
Or disabled people?
Questionable. If a disabled person works full time, why does the taxpayer need to pay their travel costs? Many disabled people already receive financial assistance from the state to cover costs such as travel.
If the buses were going to run anyway and the children were not going to travel then there are no additonal costs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


This just sounds like political diatribe.
Surely every bus company is reimbursed for every child carried? Otherwise, there wouldn't be a cost to the government/us at all.
 

mayneway

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Surely every bus company is reimbursed for every child carried? Otherwise, there wouldn't be a cost to the government/us at all.
Yes that’s exactly how it is and is why we are pushed to record every single journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The big picture is that the operator will have gained the same amount of £s as the taxpayer has lost.

This is indeed a redistribution but no increase in overall costs has occurred.
Sorry you’re talking in riddles.
So the taxpayer covers the cost but it’s ok because it goes in the operators pocket?
 

mangad

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Not really, no. If I was giving out free bus rides I'd much rather find a better qualifying metric than age. At least link it to income, perhaps pension credit entitlement. What is the logic of a wealthy retired couple getting free rides when their minimum wage cleaner doesn't?
I hear your point here but also we know ability to safely drive declines with age. And so there is an incentive to persuade older people not to drive. Get them on free buses instead is one way of doing that. True, there are other possible ways (more stick than carrot perhaps).
 

YorkRailFan

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Why not make petrol and diesel free then? And gas and electricity? Or mortgages? After all, every penny not spent on a bill could then be spent in the local economy.
I would fully support free energy bills and housing but this Government just isn't going to do that so I'll support any kind of freebies that help families, even if its only for a short time.
Questionable. If a disabled person works full time, why does the taxpayer need to pay their travel costs? Many disabled people already receive financial assistance from the state to cover costs such as travel.
The money the taxpayer spends on funding ENCTS for disabled people is a drop in the ocean compared to other expenses. If it means more people using public transport, that's great.
Not really, no. If I was giving out free bus rides I'd much rather find a better qualifying metric than age. At least link it to income, perhaps pension credit entitlement. What is the logic of a wealthy retired couple getting free rides when their minimum wage cleaner doesn't?
Its a fair point. The primary reason I support it for the elderly is that many vital rural services depend on ENCTS users. Many elderly people wouldn't travel (or at least not by bus) without ENCTS which puts these vital services at risk of being cut. That has a negative impact on any non-ENCTS users who depend on the services.
 

Dwarfer1979

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Surely every bus company is reimbursed for every child carried? Otherwise, there wouldn't be a cost to the government/us at all.

Yes that’s exactly how it is and is why we are pushed to record every single journey.
Actually not, at least as far as we think though there is some grey in this - I have checked this with my colleague who actually does the paperwork for these sort of schemes. Operators are paid a fixed sum that was agreed at the start of the scheme based on child passenger numbers during a designated period. It is a requirement from the DfT as part of the scheme that operators record usage (we took that as requiring issuing a ticket but it seems other operators viewed that differently) and we have been told that there will be a reconciliation of those numbers after the scheme finishes but we do not know whether than will involve operators getting more money or paying back money if usage were lower (unlikely) or whether this is simply to give the government numbers to announce the scheme as a success and/or evaluate it to decide whether to repeat it in later school holidays.

It is very similar to the £3/£2 fare cap though that has been in place for so long that the money involved is at least reflective of usage but all these schemes were announced based on a fixed sum per period and that amount is then shared between operators proportionally to usage & travel type but not directly related (so the operators with more passengers and those whose passengers travel further and so have a higher average fare got a higher share for instance)

I thought this scheme is voluntary?
It is but can you imagine the public response if one of the larger companies announced they weren't going to participate in this scheme announced by the government as something to help out hard pressed families over the summer. Smaller companies may have felt able to opt out but the larger ones probably didn't though Rotala seem generally immune to those sort of social peer pressures so you may in practice be able to ride some of it out long term but for such a short term initiative it probably wasn't worth it.
 
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