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Four ECML trains to travel side by side

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HowardGWR

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Nobody else has mentioned it so I will.

These tests with four GWR 60xx are seen at these links. For blind colleagues I follow the two links with some description. It must have been quite a sight.

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwm1592.htm
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwro1578.htm

Four Great Western Railway 4-6-0 60xx class 'Kings', No 6017 King Edward IV leading No 6005 King George II and No 6001 King Edward VII leading No 6014 King Henry VII, carry out bridge tests on the newly quadrupled track between Olton and Lapworth by travelling neck and neck at 62 mph along the route. These locomotives were the heaviest owned by the company, each locomotive weighting approximately 136 tons (with a loaded tender} and having a maximum axle weight of 22 tons 10cwt. When the government introduced the Development (Loan Guarantees and Grant Act of 1929s to relieve unemployment during the depression, the Great Western Railway embarked on a comprehensive programme of infrastructure works including the completion of the quadrupling of the main line south of Birmingham.

Previous work had provided five miles of quadrupled track from Moor Street as far Olton. The new work would extend this four track section a further seven miles to just south of Lapworth station. The work started in 1930 and would take three years to complete. It involved the construction of 33 bridges, the rebuilding of two stations (Olton and Solihull) and the extensive remodelling of a further three stations. Existing track was relayed and realigned to ensure maximum speed (with no curves having a radius smaller than one mile, except one curve on the relief line at Knowle and another at Olton where the radius was 4000 foot). High speed junctions with switched diamond crossings were laid at Lapworth, Knowle and Solihull. The permanent way was 95lb/yd bull-head rail in 60 foot lengths resting on 46lb cast iron chairs fixed to creosoted Oregon pine sleepers. Track-circuit indication was provided throughout and new signal boxes were built at Olton and Solihull. The main contractor was Cleveland Bridge and Engineering Co Ltd.

As a footnote, I was surprised how many misspellings and typos I corrected in the above. I will write to the webmaster.
 
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jopsuk

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No A4? Tsk! What other (the Stirling Single has already been mentioned) premier express locos from this line are "missing"? How many tracks would we need to get all of them?

I get that Virgin are paying for this, but wouldn't it be great if the HST was all in blue & grey livery, with the 225 in Swallow?
 

leomartin125

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My questions are:

> Why? Surely it will require an all line block, and waste time and money that could be better spent doing something elsewhere (Like NRM maybe?).

> And crucially... how? How on earth does NR perform this, won't the signalling not allow four track running in the same direction all at one time? It will be a feat when they do pull this off.
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Deltic is involved. Spotted this conversation on twitter...

@DAVELEWARNE ON TWITTER said:
@Virgin_TrainsEC what a brilliant idea! However you have forgotten the legendary Deltics which fills the gap between steam and the HST!

VIRGIN TRAINS EC RESPONSE ON TWITTER said:
@DaveLewarne There will be a Deltic coupled to the rear carriage of the train hauled by the Flying Scotsman. ^SW
 

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attics26

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My questions are:

> Why? Surely it will require an all line block, and waste time and money that could be better spent doing something elsewhere (Like NRM maybe?).

> And crucially... how? How on earth does NR perform this, won't the signalling not allow four track running in the same direction all at one time? It will be a feat when they do pull this off.

the line is shut therefore no problem running all 4 lines in the same direction
 

800001

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My questions are:

> Why? Surely it will require an all line block, and waste time and money that could be better spent doing something elsewhere (Like NRM maybe?).

> And crucially... how? How on earth does NR perform this, won't the signalling not allow four track running in the same direction all at one time? It will be a feat when they do pull this off.

Line is closed from 20:00 Sat night unitl 10:00 Sunday morning due to track renewals in the Thirsk Area, so will be done before the start of service.
1st Service in from the north arrives into York at 10:27/
 

Starmill

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Every Sunday - really?

Closed 8pm Saturday until 10am Sundays for March, April and May, due to track renewals in Thirsk area.

Even when there are no changes to train times, the final train from York to Newcastle on Saturday night is 2258 (arriving 0005) and the first train on Sunday morning is the 0755 from Newcastle (arrives York at 0855). So the possession is only starting roughly 3 hours earlier and finishing roughly 2 hours later.
 
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DarloRich

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My questions are:

> Why? Surely it will require an all line block, and waste time and money that could be better spent doing something elsewhere (Like NRM maybe?).

> And crucially... how? How on earth does NR perform this, won't the signalling not allow four track running in the same direction all at one time? It will be a feat when they do pull this off.

the line is closed on Sunday mornings - as has been pointed out above.

Even when there are no changes to train times, the final train from York to Newcastle on Saturday night is 2258 (arriving 0005) and the first train on Sunday morning is the 0755 from Newcastle (arrives York at 0855). So the possession is only starting roughly 3 hours earlier and finishing roughly 2 hours later.

But those, roughly, 5 hours are incredibly helpful in delivering maintenance/renewal work. Because of the usual problems your typical overnight possession only offers a couple of productive hours of work so those extra hours come in very useful. It might not sound like a lot of time but it really helps and is not easily agreed to by the TOC's. Of course freights can run all night which impacts on available work windows.......
 
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Clip

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Fantastic idea this. Will try and wangle a little trip to see if I can view them from somewhere.
 

sprinterguy

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No A4? Tsk! What other (the Stirling Single has already been mentioned) premier express locos from this line are "missing"? How many tracks would we need to get all of them?
Well, as noted in relation to the 1978 posed publicity shot, that involved six locos including a representative NER 4-4-0 and a GNR 'Atlantic', and an A4 rather than an A3, so for a modern representation including the 225 and Azuma, and an A4 as well as an A3, you'd need nine tracks.

Given that there are only two running lines into York station from the north, I wonder how the run into the station itself will be managed? Will it just be the oldest and newest (Scotsman and Azuma) running into the station, with the current stock being sent onto the avoiding lines round the back of the NRM?
 
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sprinterguy

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No A4, no Deltic - what is this fascination about the Flying bloody Scotsman.
Well, that it was the first steam locomotive to achieve an authenticated 100mph, and is named for a train that has nearly 100 years association with the East Coast route (as an official title) might have a hand in it. ;)
 
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Mag_seven

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Well, that it was the first steam locomotive to achieve an authenticated 100mph, and is named for a train that has nearly 100 years association with the East Coast route (as an official title) might have a hand in it. ;)

And Mallard (an A4) got to 126mph mate! :)
 

gimmea50anyday

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I wohld imagine special instructions to run bang road will be given to the two trains on the slow to then obey the shunt signals at Tollerton or Skelton Bridge to then use crossovers on to the correct lines. Meanwhile the two on the up lines will follow signals as normal. There are emergency crossovers at Thirsk and Tollerton and of course at Skelton and at Northallerton so it will simply be a case of working out the logistics and setting the relevant routes.
 

glbotu

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Is it really "bang road" or are they just using SIMBIDS? I can imagine it'll take a while for the Scotsman to get to 50mph, relative to an HST or 91 and certainly I expect the Azuma to go like the clappers.............
 

KN1

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Can't see why the Flying Scotsman is included and no A4 or Deltic, seems a bit ridiculous to me.
 

sprinterguy

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are any serviceable at present?
I believe that all three of the main line passed A4s are out of service for overhaul at present; I think that "Union of South Africa" is meant to be back in service at around Easter, but that would be cutting it very fine for this high profile event. So yes, that's a very good reason why an A4 isn't going to be involved in this lineup.
 

sprinterguy

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I can imagine it'll take a while for the Scotsman to get to 50mph, relative to an HST or 91 and certainly I expect the Azuma to go like the clappers.............
It's not a drag race, I wouldn't expect them all to go straight to notch 5 (or whatever the equivalent is on a class 91 or class 800 series train) as soon as they get the green light/permission to proceed. ;)
 

sprinterguy

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And Mallard (an A4) got to 126mph mate! :)
Yeah, but as arbitrary as it is, a great deal of significance is attached to achieving the magic three figures, and that A4 is only named after a ubiquitous species of duck, after all. :p

Plus, you'd be hard pressed to get "Mallard" moving at any speed under it's own power these days! ;)
 

sonorguy

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It's not a drag race, I wouldn't expect them all to go straight to notch 5 (or whatever the equivalent is on a class 91 or class 800 series train) as soon as they get the green light/permission to proceed. ;)

The speed quoted on the press release is 25-30mph for all the trains, I guess for photography reasons more than anything else/
 

gimmea50anyday

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Is it really "bang road" or are they just using SIMBIDS? I can imagine it'll take a while for the Scotsman to get to 50mph, relative to an HST or 91 and certainly I expect the Azuma to go like the clappers.............

SIMBIDS is used on 2 track sections. Effectively everything north of Northallerton. These sections are signalled for reverse working or bi-directional and relatively easy to set.

As south of Northallerton there are 4 track (Up slow - Up Fast - Down Fast - Down Slow) the alternative road is already there. Running wrong way- or bang road is only used in emergency situations on these 4 track sections and the route has to be set up and cleared by the signaller manually.
 

xotGD

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A better line up would be:

Track 1: Deltic
Track 2: Deltic
Track 3: Deltic
Track 4: Deltic

Now THAT would look impressive!
 

Hartington

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I've only seen one reference so far to what happens to the public and that simply says "don't tresspass". I would have thought this would be an opportunity to work with lineside landowners, collect a small fee and donate it to charities. Otherwise I suspect a mass tresspass and not just on the tracks.
 

harz99

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Maybe I'm being too cynical, but looking at those involved in running this event I can see why the Deltic isn't one of the main four for the side-by-side run.

- VTEC/Hitachi obviously want to publicise the new Azuma.
- NRM will never shy away from keeping Flying Scotsman in the limelight so long as it is able to pay back some of the millions invested in her.
- The 125 and 225 are to a degree in the "shop window" - useful to have them in an event that'll no doubt attract a worldwide audience of railway-minded folk.

The Deltics on the other hand aren't new, haven't cost millions to restore (yet), and aren't looking to be sold en masse.

As I say maybe being too cynical, however...

No, not cynical at all. Your spot on in that the whole thing is a thinly disguised NR/VTEC promotion for the Azuma, cynically using Scotsman to drum up (normal) public interest.

The line up of 4 could easily substitute a Deltic for Scotsman and then have Scotsman it self leading the lineup a suitable distance ahead. Forget "normal" signalling and operations, anything is possible with the right people and the will to get it done.
 

jopsuk

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There's no "disguise", there's no cynicism. Virgin are pretty open that it's to promote the new trains
 
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