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Forth Bridge: how would you electrify it?

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Aictos

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They haven't announced project specifics, however they have made it clear that their intention is to extend wires from Dunblane to Perth and onwards to Dundee/Carnoustie with the Fife Circle following on/running parallel.

I can understand their intention to wire up to Dundee however why stop there? Why not continue all the way to Aberdeen?

It is good that they intent to wire up these routes, at the same time they might as well wire up the South Suburban line on the outskirts of Edinburgh because there's no reason not to.
 
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For NR the first question is whether it's practical to install just standard 25kV AC. That might require special treatment on the bridge with custom kit, but if that can provide a consistent 25kV AC for trains to use in the standard loading gauge, then there's no need for special trains at all.

If that isn't practically possible, then NR has to come up with a system which isn't only applicable to the Forth Bridge, as there are huge numbers of other places on the network with limitations on OHLE install. Consider all of the tunnels, low bridges, sensitive areas, depots, level crossings, dual electrification zones and the like across the network. Come up with a solution for all of them and you make it more worthwhile and affordable to fit it to trains, and make it possible to deliver the benefits of electrification at a lower cost on more lines across the country. Would 3kV DC/AC help? Not really - there are still plenty of situations where the existence of an electrified overhead line at all is a problem regardless of voltage. Would narrower pantographs help? Again, not really. It'd be marginally helpful in a few low-clearance situations with rounded corners but it won't do much elsewhere.

Small batteries are the only technology which would be useful and applicable across the entire network. It'd be massively helpful for NR if electric trains were able to rescue themselves to the next station or off the mainline when power supplies fail. For DC trains it would help capture regenerative braking energy when it'd otherwise go to resistor grids at the substations. It would allow DC and AC supplies to be separated when there's a switchover. At stations it would massively reduce the cost of electrification as the platform area could be made a neutral section, meaning that nearby bridges which were acceptable under previous standards will no longer need raised or replaced.

I don't think Batetries are there yet however Diesel engines on trains like IEP for this sort of thing. Or 3rd Rail.

Given that there are really very low risks associated with tresspassers on the bridge..... why is a third rail solution verboten here?

Do people really get caught wandering around on the bridge?

Not often I doubt - its a long way down and no means of escape from forces of the law.

Apparently further third rail electrification is not permitted, unless it's an extension of an existing installation.

Tell the ORR where to go. Lets use some common sense.

Do the IEPs that have been already to Aberdeen have shoes?
I don't think they do.

Putting down a third rail is falling in to the realms of fantasy.
Why? IEP can use diesel so no issue here. Other EMUs thuird Rail shoes if built at the same time as electrification installation.

British Rail had plans in the 80's to wire up to Aberdeen so they must have found a solution otherwise they wouldn't have proposed it.

I wonder though what the solution was....

Might have been allowed in the 1980s but whether safety standards now would allow it is another matter and as seen from previous correspondents can be onneronous.
 

najaB

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Not often I doubt - its a long way down and no means of escape from forces of the law.
It does happen though. And, ignoring trespassers, track workers and train staff would be at risk of contacting the 3rd rail.
Why? IEP can use diesel so no issue here. Other EMUs thuird Rail shoes if built at the same time as electrification installation.
It would be much more useful to equip them with either batteries (which 'are there' by the way) or diesel generators since they would be of use elsewhere (e.g. self-rescue if the wires are dead, depot moves, etc.) rather than a solution that would be used for approximately 1 out of the 130 miles from Edinburgh to Aberdeen.
 

swt_passenger

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What about the same sort of system as on Trowse swing bridge?
Overhead Conductor rail/beam/bar. It’s what half of this thread has been about so far. The point is that the pantographs might still be foul of the structure.
 

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It does happen though. And, ignoring trespassers, track workers and train staff would be at risk of contacting the 3rd rail.
It would be much more useful to equip them with either batteries (which 'are there' by the way) or diesel generators since they would be of use elsewhere (e.g. self-rescue if the wires are dead, depot moves, etc.) rather than a solution that would be used for approximately 1 out of the 130 miles from Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

Why not put third rail through difficult tunnels too? Its not just the Forth Bridge to consider.

As for the batteries you may believe that but having seen one on trial I remain to be convinced on its merits over say a donkey diesel engine which is being provided for IEP.
 

najaB

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Why not put third rail through difficult tunnels too? Its not just the Forth Bridge to consider.
Because then you end up with random bits of 3rd rail in places with limited clearance for track workers/staff. Ttwo electrification systems to maintain. And routes where trains can't easily be substituted for strengthening/resilience purposes.
As for the batteries you may believe that...
There are cars driving around with 100kWh battery packs, so a 0.5 - 1MWh pack for a train would be/is trivial.
 

Altnabreac

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I believe (for heavy rail systems) the nearest section of conductor rail to the Forth Bridge would be Ormskirk on the Merseyrail network. Obviously, the furthest would be somewhere south of the mighty Thames.

Technically I imagine the furthest section of GB third rail from the Forth Bridge will be at Weymouth. This is of course further west than even the ultimate source of the Thames so you can walk in a straight line from Weymouth to the Forth Bridge without any need to cross the Thames.
 

backontrack

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And Aberdeen-Inverness after that. I can see a case for the FNL as far as Tain but I suspect that'll be the limit of electrification - WHL anyone?
What about Stranraer? Pretty unlikely I'd imagine.

Girvan'll get wired though.
 

Altnabreac

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What about Stranraer? Pretty unlikely I'd imagine.

Girvan'll get wired though.

Girvan is a logical extension of wires. Sure it will happen eventually. A single DMU based in Stranraer could then run a two hourly shuttle service to Girvan with same platform interchange.
 

snowball

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I read on here some years ago, and have since mentioned in various threads, a claim that the main problem is clearance between diagonal girders and the ends of a passing pantograph. I am no electrical engineer, but I have often thought that the solution might be to apply a layer of insulating material to sections of those girders closest to where the pantograph might be. I have recently seen it stated that the underside of a bridge at Cardiff has been covered with insulating material to avoid having to raise the bridge. I have no idea why this technique has not been used in the past.

This video is about the Manchester-Preston electrification. At 12:40 it shows a plastic shroud that looks only about 3mm thick that is clipped over the top of the contact and/or catenary wire under bridges and is said to be safe for 25kV. Just cover the relevant parts of the Forth Bridge's diagonal girders with that stuff and hey presto.

https://twitter.com/nodrogvlogs/status/1043034122732462081
 

Aictos

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With the Forth bridge could we not follow the Dutch example as they have done on the Schiedam to Hoeke van Holland line?


Two bridges along the Hoekse Lijn have no overhead power wires, as here at the turning bridge in Maassluis as a "Hondekop" train passes by.
 

najaB

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With the Forth bridge could we not follow the Dutch example as they have done on the Schiedam to Hoeke van Holland line?
That works (no wires and coasting) when the gap is a hundred metres or so, less so when it's closer to three kilometres.
 

bspahh

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Given that there are really very low risks associated with tresspassers on the bridge..... why is a third rail solution verboten here?

Do people really get caught wandering around on the bridge?

It worked for Richard Hannay
 
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deltic08

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I've never had cause to look at the Forth Bridge before now, i'm sure my colleagues in Scotland would be all over it though. From the video posted it appears that the diagonal bracing is the greatest constraint which would need sufficient clearance to passing pantograph horns (the side bits).

Normally 230mm allowance is given for sway which could probably be cut down for a 40mph linespeed. Conductor beam would effectively stop uplift which would buy some clearance, but may be regarded as more visually intrusive and requires frequent support compared to a catenary system.
From the video, Sprinters and HSTs can run over the bridge at 50mph.
 
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Pigeon

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This is easy. You just have a trained haggis with a hand-cranked generator and a big bag of speed, that sits on top of the train, connects jump leads from the generator to the pantograph, and cranks like mad until the train gets to the other side. If you have two consecutive workings in the same direction then it can walk back to pick up the second one with its feet on one side on the rail and the other side on the sleepers to keep it upright.
 

najaB

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This is easy. You just have a trained haggis with a hand-cranked generator and a big bag of speed, that sits on top of the train, connects jump leads from the generator to the pantograph, and cranks like mad until the train gets to the other side. If you have two consecutive workings in the same direction then it can walk back to pick up the second one with its feet on one side on the rail and the other side on the sleepers to keep it upright.
That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read and, respectfully, if you aren't going to post seriously then could I ask you not to post at all in this kind of thread. That's the kind of drivel that should be reserved for the jokes thread.



Trained Haggis indeed. Everyone knows you can't train them.
 

deltic08

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That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read and, respectfully, if you aren't going to post seriously then could I ask you not to post at all in this kind of thread. That's the kind of drivel that should be reserved for the jokes thread.

Trained Haggis indeed. Everyone knows you can't train them.
and there aren't any sleepers on the bridge either!
 
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