Formula 1

[Peter Mugridge]

It appears Red Bull have an issue with fuelling this weekend - they've had to terminate Verstappen's qualifying just as he was about to do his flying lap because he was running out of fuel... he's in 8th; Leclerc is on pole. Hamilton is 3rd.

 

[D365]

Verstappen looks a bit miffed, doesn’t he. What is it with drivers blowing up the radio in the last few races…

 

[Domh245]

It appears Red Bull have an issue with fuelling this weekend - they've had to terminate Verstappen's qualifying just as he was about to do his flying lap because he was running out of fuel... he's in 8th; Leclerc is on pole. Hamilton is 3rd.

By all accounts, it was more of a silly mistake where there was fuel, but not enough to complete the lap he was on, plus the in lap & then still have enough fuel for the sample. Not really an issue with fuelling (though running it that marginal is surprising) as much as not tracking it very well through the 12 minutes of Q3

Verstappen looks a bit miffed, doesn’t he. What is it with drivers blowing up the radio in the last few races…

I think in Verstappen's case it's especially understandable - it's a fairly basic thing to get right, and they should have been tracking it much sooner. Don't forget he aborted his penultimate lap (which would have been good enough for pole by quite a margin) to have one final go, which was then also aborted - he should have been on pole if the team had said "fuel will be marginal, push this lap and cooldown after" as he was doing the penultimate lap

 

[Cloud Strife]

By all accounts, it was more of a silly mistake where there was fuel, but not enough to complete the lap he was on, plus the in lap & then still have enough fuel for the sample. Not really an issue with fuelling (though running it that marginal is surprising) as much as not tracking it very well through the 12 minutes of Q3

It does happen to everyone, really. I believe that they need to have a litre of fuel remaining at the end, so they must have miscalculated rather badly to abandon the lap so early.

For me that car is the very definition of an F1 machine (although the McLaren MP4/4 runs it close).

And not the ridiculous Williams FW15C, which was technologically ridiculous?

Mind you, some of those engines from the turbocharger era were ridiculous. If memory serves me well, wasn't one of the amazing things about the MP4/4 that it didn't have a ridiculously powerful engine? I seem to remember that the claims at the time were that it was producing 1200hp, but in reality, it was something like 700hp?

 

[357]

I believe they were planning to do 5 laps, and ended up going for a 6th.

It was a risky move to abort the penultimate lap, as it could have been pole easily. He was flying.

To abort that lap and then have to abort for fuel?

Red Bull have done a Ferrari.

 

[Bald Rick]

And not the ridiculous Williams FW15C, which was technologically ridiculous?

Funnily enough I was going to add that to the list, but decided to limit it to my top 2!

 

[PG]

At least we will find out on Wednesday. I was looking forward to this race weekend, but now this seems to be the dominating issue, and stirred up the usual toxic elements of the F1 fanbase, which is all so tiresome.

Unfortunately not as the FIA have now stated that compliance certificates will be released on Monday, 10 October.

Wednesday's delay is the fourth time the FIA has given teams a date only to push it back.

At first, teams were told the results would be published on Friday 30 September, then Monday 3 October, then 5 October.

Could easily be pushed back further so I won't be holding my breath; no doubt there'll be plenty more hot air spouted at this weekend's GP...

 

[Broucek]

Unfortunately not as the FIA have now stated that compliance certificates will be released on Monday, 10 October.

Could easily be pushed back further so I won't be holding my breath; no doubt there'll be plenty more hot air spouted at this weekend's GP...

I was always taught that bad numbers take longer to add up than good ones…. The delay implies SOMETHING has been found….

 

[baz962]

Max just won the race and the world championship.

 

[357]

Trust F1 to follow the most controversial championship win with the most confusing

Waiting for the conspiracy theories on Twitter that they gave the time penalty to detract attention from their tractor on the track before the red flag

Jokes aside, that tractor on the track was unbelievable and unforgivable.

 

[Domh245]

A real disasterclass today. The tractor incident (which I'm still 50/50 on - nothing inherently wrong with having tractors on track but you either wait til everyone is bunched behind SC or you are on the radio to all cars/drivers informing them as is done in Formula E, WEC, etc. The tractor also needs to be lit up like a christmas tree for poor visibility situations like this) but then the rather farcical conclusion to the race (a lap early potentially) and the full/half points confusion.

Glad I didn't get up especially early to catch it!

 

[D365]

A real disasterclass today. The tractor incident (which I'm still 50/50 on - nothing inherently wrong with having tractors on track but you either wait til everyone is bunched behind SC or you are on the radio to all cars/drivers informing them as is done in Formula E, WEC, etc. The tractor also needs to be lit up like a christmas tree for poor visibility situations like this) but then the rather farcical conclusion to the race (a lap early potentially) and the full/half points confusion.

Glad I didn't get up especially early to catch it!

If we ignore the initial shambles, it was worth the wait - enough action going on. But the points confusion really should have been clarified.

A shame that Verstappen won his championship after a five second penalty, but I'm glad that the inevitable is finally over with.

 

[357]

The tractor incident (which I'm still 50/50 on - nothing inherently wrong with having tractors on track but you either wait til everyone is bunched behind SC or you are on the radio to all cars/drivers informing them as is done in Formula E, WEC, etc.

Absolutely. Having them on track while cars are still going gets things going faster, but if they can't do it safely then the racing should absolutely suffer.

The tractor also needs to be lit up like a christmas tree for poor visibility situations like this)

Wasn't this a recommendation in a report some years ago after a death due to a car hitting a tractor? I think a safe system could be found for dry conditions (like Riccardo being recovered) but in wet conditions unless the tractors are modified I'd still lean towards waiting for them to bunch / red flag.

but then the rather farcical conclusion to the race (a lap early potentially) and the full/half points confusion.

Glad I didn't get up especially early to catch it!

I don't think it was a farce, but it was very confusing for all involved.

Adrian from Red Bull didn't know that Max was champion until it came up on the screens during the podium ceremony!

 

[Broucek]

The three-hour rule is a shame. Things could have been even more interesting if the race had continued

 

[Domh245]

Absolutely. Having them on track while cars are still going gets things going faster, but if they can't do it safely then the racing should absolutely suffer.

I suppose I'm too used to following sportscars & GTs which are a lot more forigiving for incidents with recovery vehicles, but even comparing to Formula E (admittedly much lower speeds) you have the Race Director saying words to the effect of "attention all team & drivers, we've got a recovery vehicle on track at turn # recovering car ##, please be cautious" - the idea of red flagging for every incident requiring vehicle recovery seems rather over the top to me!

Wasn't this a recommendation in a report some years ago after a death due to a car hitting a tractor? I think a safe system could be found for dry conditions (like Riccardo being recovered) but in wet conditions unless the tractors are modified I'd still lean towards waiting for them to bunch / red flag.

The safe system for dry conditions is SC (or VSC), but really I think we should move to a speed enforcement system where any sector with an incident, marshal or track vehicle on track is driven on the pit speed limiter - indeed I was always a bit surprised that this wasn't implemented instead of the VSC

I don't think it was a farce, but it was very confusing for all involved.

Yeah, that's probably a more fair description. Certainly highlighted that there's a lot of rules that need tightening up again!!

The three-hour rule is a shame. Things could have been even more interesting if the race had continued

A longer race would have been interesting, but there would have been concerns about the light levels - it was alreadu noticably dark at the end of the race

As an aside, I was going to say on my original post that hopefully the day's BTCC action at Brands Hatch goes better, but the first race of the day saw around half of the scheduled laps behind Safety Car after a lap 1 incident, followed by a red flag for a scary barrier-jumping crash (of which, far too many at Brands Hatch unforutunately)

 

[kristiang85]

The three-hour rule is a shame. Things could have been even more interesting if the race had continued

Sunset was only 20mins later, but even an extra 15 minutes would have made it interesting with the tyres.

They should have started a lot earlier - the eventual race proved the drivers can race fine in these conditions.

Wish I hadn't got up at 6am!

 

[357]

I suppose I'm too used to following sportscars & GTs which are a lot more forigiving for incidents with recovery vehicles, but even comparing to Formula E (admittedly much lower speeds) you have the Race Director saying words to the effect of "attention all team & drivers, we've got a recovery vehicle on track at turn # recovering car ##, please be cautious" - the idea of red flagging for every incident requiring vehicle recovery seems rather over the top to me!

It is over the top, but my point was if they can't find a safe system of bringing vehicles on track in wet conditions (we have already said multiple ways this can be done) then it's safer to red flag.

There is no good reason that any of the suggestions in the last few replies can't be implemented and give a safe system of working

 

[jfollows]

There are far too many rules to make it interesting as a sport nowadays, it's not about getting the best car with the best engine and the best driver but is about penalties for changing engines, safety cars all the time, penalties for infringements of the (too many) rules, and so on.

However I understand why there are so many rules.

The old system led to many driver deaths and that's rightly unacceptable today. They also led to the teams with the most money being able to win all the time.

I'm familiar from my former career with high performance computing and its ability to model things, I've been to visit one of the teams near Milton Keynes in the past as part of that job, and it's impressive what they do (I think it was Red Bull albeit a few years ago).

But it's not a spectator sport unless the spectator is interested in all the complexity of the rules as well. Plus the things they have to do (DRS for example) to enable cars to overtake.

Still, I'm glad Verstappen won the title this year, ignoring all the bonkers rules he seems really good and deserving.

I think they're stuck in a trap of their own devising now in which the only solution to silly rules is additional less silly rules to counteract them, and in due course further rules to counteract these. I have to say that if I were in charge I'd probably end up doing the same thing, it's driven a lot by an overriding need for safety and that's probably good and is what the public wants to see.

But it's only slightly more interesting as a spectator sport than the US oval car racing, which I've never been able to watch for more than ten minutes, although if I were there in person perhaps I'd enjoy it more.

 

[357]

There are far too many rules to make it interesting as a sport nowadays, it's not about getting the best car with the best engine and the best driver but is about penalties for changing engines, safety cars all the time, penalties for infringements of the (too many) rules, and so on.

However I understand why there are so many rules.

The old system led to many driver deaths and that's rightly unacceptable today. They also led to the teams with the most money being able to win all the time.

I'm familiar from my former career with high performance computing and its ability to model things, I've been to visit one of the teams near Milton Keynes in the past as part of that job, and it's impressive what they do (I think it was Red Bull albeit a few years ago).

But it's not a spectator sport unless the spectator is interested in all the complexity of the rules as well. Plus the things they have to do (DRS for example) to enable cars to overtake.

Still, I'm glad Verstappen won the title this year, ignoring all the bonkers rules he seems really good and deserving.

I think they're stuck in a trap of their own devising now in which the only solution to silly rules is additional less silly rules to counteract them, and in due course further rules to counteract these. I have to say that if I were in charge I'd probably end up doing the same thing, it's driven a lot by an overriding need for safety and that's probably good and is what the public wants to see.

But it's only slightly more interesting as a spectator sport than the US oval car racing, which I've never been able to watch for more than ten minutes, although if I were there in person perhaps I'd enjoy it more.

I for one love the complexity of the sport, but agree it's not for everyone.

Things like engine penalties lead to more strategy - the harder you push the engine, the less races it lasts for.

 

[JD2168]

Well done to Max for winning his second world championship, although in confusing circumstances. Max dominated today’s race, clearly keeping his tyres better than Leclerc.
An investigation needs to happen into the tractor/ Gasly incident with the Tractor requiring much better lighting than at the moment, on the footage from Gasly’s car you could barely see the lights on the back of it.

 

[Geezertronic]

Gasly quite rightly has been given a lot of the blame for "tractorgate" - the double-waved yellows were out as was the safety car so there was absolutely no reason for him to be travelling at the speed he was travelling at. Double-waved yellow flags indicate that "Drivers must slow down significantly and be prepared to stop immediately" so his excessive speed was totally unjustified at that time particularly due to the conditions.

 

[SynthD]

The investigation was launched quickly after the events.

Gasly was 9 seconds behind his lap delta. Who set that? Is it the FIA determined speed reduction while the safety car is out? How was his visibility so poor when he was catching up to the pack?

 

[Cloud Strife]

The safe system for dry conditions is SC (or VSC), but really I think we should move to a speed enforcement system where any sector with an incident, marshal or track vehicle on track is driven on the pit speed limiter - indeed I was always a bit surprised that this wasn't implemented instead of the VSC

The technology is there to implement electronic speed restrictions. You just need someone sat at a computer who will click a start and end point on the track along with a set speed. You can divide the track into small individual sectors, so for instance, you impose a limit of 60km/h 500m before the incident and 'return to racing speed' 100m after the incident.

It can be very easily done, you can implement it with zero input from teams/drivers, and you can mark it with a flashing yellow light along with a written speed. You can even do it like on the railway: double yellows with a white target speed, then single yellow with a red target speed which would be enforceable.

This way, normal racing can take place while also slowing drivers down at the problematic location. If you want to bunch drivers up, then they should enter the pit lane and stop at the end of the pit lane for the red light until everyone has entered the pit lane. They can then proceed at a speed deemed appropriate by the race director.

You can use the same technology to restore the time gaps (as they existed before the yellow flags) once racing resumes.

There's really no need for a safety car with today's technology.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Le Mans implements such a system which they call Slow Zones as the much longer track is problematic for safety cars so putting a speed limit on the section there's been a crash on makes sense. After a number of crashes under safety car restarts, Spa 24 implemented a full course yellow system (before the virtual safety car had been implemented I think) where they have to apply the pit limiter when driving round the track which appeared to work well as it immediately slowed all the cars down and stopped anyone getting an advantage from the cars being bunched up. Curiously though they've gone back to using a safety car at the end of the full course yellow to increase the speed of the cars before releasing them, I'd have thought it would make more sense to have a second stage of the full course yellow with a higher speed.

That said I think it's fairly simple that recovery vehicles shouldn't be going onto the track when there's cars still going at speed round it.

 

[najaB]

That said I think it's fairly simple that recovery vehicles shouldn't be going onto the track when there's cars still going at speed round it.

Thing is, with double waved-yellows there shouldn't have been anyone going "at speed".

 

[66701GBRF]

Thing is, with double waved-yellows there shouldn't have been anyone going "at speed".

This. Everyone is quick to blame the FIA for it all but not the driver who ignored doubles waved yellows. The delta time on his steering wheel is irrelevant when it comes to on track instructions.

 

[Darandio]

This. Everyone is quick to blame the FIA for it all but not the driver who ignored doubles waved yellows. The delta time on his steering wheel is irrelevant when it comes to on track instructions.

The FIA still are to blame, at least partially. The instruction is still to slow down 'significantly' whilst preparing to stop or change direction quickly. It's hard to argue (for example) that anyone slowing to 80mph on a 190mph straight hasn't slowed significantly.

They trialled technology immediately after the Bianchi crash whereby speeds would be overridden on all cars by the push of a button in the stewards room when double yellows were waved. It's proven technology that was even in some junior forms of motorsport at the time, they just dallied about and didn't proceed further.

 

[Broucek]

This. Everyone is quick to blame the FIA for it all but not the driver who ignored doubles waved yellows. The delta time on his steering wheel is irrelevant when it comes to on track instructions.

I agree - my sense is the "be prepared to stop" element is easily forgotten. Either this must be reinforced OR there needs to be an explicit "tractor on track" warning

 

[Darandio]

I agree - my sense is the "be prepared to stop" element is easily forgotten. Either this must be reinforced OR there needs to be an explicit "tractor on track" warning

Taking my example above, a driver follows the instruction to slow down 'significantly' from 190mph to 80mph when sighting waved double yellow flags. As he's slowed down to 80mph he's also making preparation to stop simply by the fact he's already reduced the speed so much, an F1 car can go from 80-0 in just over a second.

It's still leaving the driver to decide how to interpret the rule and it shouldn't be that way, it should be taken out of their hands. Even a temporary solution of an instruction for everyone to slow down and activate the pit lane limiter has to be better than the current method of working.

 

[najaB]

Taking my example above, a driver follows the instruction to slow down 'significantly' from 190mph to 80mph when sighting waved double yellow flags. As he's slowed down to 80mph he's also making preparation to stop simply by the fact he's already reduced the speed so much, an F1 car can go from 80-0 in just over a second.

Being "prepared to suddenly stop or change direction" to my mind means driving no faster than you can see and react to. So, in the dry that might mean that 80mph is fine, but in conditions as wet as it was on Sunday even 40mph might be too fast.