Formula 1

[Bald Rick]

That's why I expect that they'll be trying to badge them as anything except Renault!

Nissan perhaps

 

[birchesgreen]

I'm surprised Toyota are persisting with LMP1, given how expensive it is and given how nobody cares about LMP1. Without googling it, I couldn't tell you who won Le Mans last week.

Well Toyota

Damn good race as usual, all changes next year of course.

 

[Royston Vasey]

not happening in the slightest. Perhaps Aston Martin when they realise that Seb is washed.

Oh dear, the poor thing. Burning the bridges with Renault & Cyril will bite him hard. Perhaps Red Bull or someone else (like McLaren or possibly another interested party) could buy the Honda program.

Are Mugen still in business? The return of Mugen-Honda... which came about last time Honda pulled the plug!

 

[158756]

Yes they are queuing up to to join the current formula as we can see. Most motor manufacturers are moving to EVs as fast as they can. F1 simply isn't relevant for them tech wise. I read recently that Mercedes are in purely for PR/glory, not any tech development. So F1 need to decide if they are going to move into EVs too or go back to something accessible that smaller manufacturers can develop. It is an interesting problem for them. Now there are just 3 engine makers, all with their own works teams. If one of those decided to quit too it could be all over for F1.

The current formula has been a major obstacle to any new entrants ever since it began - it's too expensive and too complicated, and no one would consider joining now the established manufacturers have so much more experience with it, even Honda were too late really.

The future for F1 is indeed an interesting problem. The next engine formula isn't expected until 2026 - that's less than a decade before major markets start banning the sale of new petrol cars; which manufacturer, Mercedes, Renault or anyone else, will want to be spending hundreds of millions on a new engine? Could an electric F1 be as fast or as popular at that point? I doubt it. A cheap V8 might attract more suppliers in the short term, but what long term future is there in that?

Renault taking their name off the team next year doesn't fill me with confidence about their future in the sport.

 

[birchesgreen]

To be honest when i started watching F1 in the 80s there was a great variety of engines: normally aspirated, turbos, V8s, V10s, V12s. Maybe the future is a mixture of engine types and some way to maintain equivalency. Not always an easy thing to do though.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Are Mugen still in business?

Yes, they're the tuning arm of Honda set up by the son of the founder.

 

[Domh245]

The thermal efficiency of the F1 hybrids is absolutely outstanding. There are no all-electric supercars, all use hybrid powertrains just like in F1. The technology is used all the time.

Formula E shows just how much electric technology is lagging behind.

I'm surprised Toyota are persisting with LMP1, given how expensive it is and given how nobody cares about LMP1. Without googling it, I couldn't tell you who won Le Mans last week.

Rimac and Tesla might disagree about that! The lack of all electric supercars is probably more reflective of an industry that's only being dragged kicking and screaming into EVs by emissions targets than anything else.

Similarly, arguing Fe shows how much EVs are lagging is a bit of a misnomer. It's a series designed not to showcase EVs as a pinnacle of automobile tech, but to showcase EVs as a sustainable future. Hence the cost caps, spec cars & batteries, all-weather tyres and street circuits. That isn't to say that electric is the right thing for F1 to do right now, but it's certainly heading in the right direction

As for Le Mans, this was the last year of the LMP1 (apart from all the ones being grandfathered in next year!) - next year they move to hypercar (which has got 3 confirmed entrants - Toyota, Peugeot ('22), and Glickenhaus) and LMDh (which has had considerably more interest, being a relatively spec formula) but both of which represent a climb down in terms of cost from the current rule set, one that in many ways mirrors F1s issues by letting itself by writ by manufacturers, spiralling into a spending war and then killing itself

As for the matter of persisting with it, it was repeated quite a few times on the broadcast that I watched of the 24 that Toyota fund their LMP1 program from R&D rather than marketing - they clearly feel that the technology they gain from it is enough to justify the spend (perhaps they learn to tighten turbo inlet hoses to last more than 23:57!)

Nissan perhaps

Given the sheer amount of oddity going on within the Renault/Nissan/Mitsubishi alliance, I wouldn't rule anything out, although that said I'd understood Nissan to be their electric posterchild, which is why we saw the formula e team switch from Renault edams to Nissan edams. From Red Bull's perspective though it's a good opportunity to land a high paying sponsor (for the naming rights) and avoid giving brand publicity to Renault

Renault taking their name off the team next year doesn't fill me with confidence about their future in the sport.

Yes and no. Between rebranding the team as Alpine and the announcement of Alpine returning to Le Mans, it would seem that Renault want to establish their 'fast' brand and are look set to increase activities to support this. This leaves the Renault brand free to return to marketing electric cars. The caveat of course is that a manufacturers commitment to F1 only seems to last as long as the current CEO, and Renault have been getting through them at a rate of knots since Ghosn's departure

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'm surprised Toyota are persisting with LMP1, given how expensive it is and given how nobody cares about LMP1. Without googling it, I couldn't tell you who won Le Mans last week.

As for the matter of persisting with it, it was repeated quite a few times on the broadcast that I watched of the 24 that Toyota fund their LMP1 program from R&D rather than marketing - they clearly feel that the technology they gain from it is enough to justify the spend

On the subject of Toyota, I wonder if they could've been a major player in the 2014 engine regs due to their experience with hybrid systems.

 

[Domh245]

On the subject of Toyota, I wonder if they could've been a major player in the 2014 engine regs due to their experience with hybrid systems.

Possibly, though at round about the same time they were developing their first LMP1, and with considerably more regulatory freedom (and with the benefit of hindsight, it would seem much lower cost). F1 would be the harder sell, particularly when the racing program is supposedly for R&D, and especially after their prior experience in F1

 

[Tetchytyke]

one that in many ways mirrors F1s issues by letting itself by writ by manufacturers, spiralling into a spending war and then killing itself

It's the perennial issue in motorsport. Manufacturers want it to be relevant and insist on all sorts of technology. They get into a spending war to win and, when they don't win, take their bat and ball home. The winners are the last one standing but they don't see the fun in winning without competition, so leave too.

It's happened countless times in touring cars- DTM and the BTCC in the 90s, and more recently the WTCC, V8 Supercars, and DTM again.

F1 can't be a spec series, so it needs manufacturers to be involved. The old V8 formula only had three manufacturers by the end too, with manufacturers wanting more hybrid tech. And the V8s weren't cheap- Cosworth tried, and failed, to offer a competitive independent engine but didn't have the budget to do it properly.

 

[D365]

F1's best bet would be to go back to V8s. Just having 3 engine suppliers isn't sustainable.

Or go electric asap.

Mercedes and Renault were threatening to quit if F1 didn't change away from V8s...

 

[birchesgreen]

Mercedes and Renault were threatening to quit if F1 didn't change away from V8s...

And other manufacturers didn't come in because of the V6T decision, VW wanted a straight four i believe. Always the way of things.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Possibly, though at round about the same time they were developing their first LMP1, and with considerably more regulatory freedom (and with the benefit of hindsight, it would seem much lower cost). F1 would be the harder sell, particularly when the racing program is supposedly for R&D, and especially after their prior experience in F1

The regulatory freedom is a key part and VW have said it's why they haven't produced an F1 engine because they want to design the best engine rather than trying to fit within the regulations. Although the LMP1 hybrids have had their ups and downs, the more choice they've been able to keep evolving the engines and hybrid systems as the electrical systems have improved and originally it looked like they could keep doing that until the combustion engine was gone and they were fully electric. They've really made hybrids work for them with cars that extremely fast and efficient, the latter LMP1 hybrids were about 50/50 on petrol/electric and under hybrid power they had four wheel drive.

Although Mercedes have made the hybrid engine work for them it still feels like an unnecessary complication for F1 racing and given the car market is turning away from hybrids it doesn't seem entirely silly to go back to a straight petrol engine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2020 ==

And other manufacturers didn't come in because of the V6T decision, VW wanted a straight four i believe. Always the way of things.

It makes sense as it's a two litre turbo V4 they used in their LMP1 which they had working well for them.

 

[Domh245]

Although Mercedes have made the hybrid engine work for them it still feels like an unnecessary complication for F1 racing and given the car market is turning away from hybrids it doesn't seem entirely silly to go back to a straight petrol engine.

I'm not sure how you figure that one out? We're seeing a whole host of hybridised vehicles coming to market now, admittedly some are 'only' mild hybrids, but there's plenty of plug-ins and 'self-charging' hybrids as well. The one thing that the car industry is turning away from is pure ICE (they're simply embracing more EVs as well as hybrids) so reverting to a pure ICE formula in f1 would be massively surprising.

My expectation is that we'll see a manufacturer ICE (likely as we have now, relatively low capacity V6 turbo but more restrictive formula for both balance of performance and cost control) with a stock MGU-K/hybrid system

 

[D365]

And other manufacturers didn't come in because of the V6T decision, VW wanted a straight four i believe. Always the way of things.

It was going to be a straight four before Ferrari (I think? among others) protested. Lack of noise possibly - though the V6s sound far better in person than they ever do on broadcast.

 

[Domh245]

It was going to be a straight four before Ferrari (I think? among others) protested. Lack of noise possibly - though the V6s sound far better in person than they ever do on broadcast.

Lack of noise was an issue (although it's more accurate to say a different sort of noise rather than lack of) but the main issue was to do with using the engine as a stressed member. A 90° V is a lot stiffer than an inline engine, which would have been a particular issue with the 2017+ high downforce regulations

 

[Tetchytyke]

The regulatory freedom is a key part and VW have said it's why they haven't produced an F1 engine because they want to design the best engine rather than trying to fit within the regulations.

I'm sure that's what they said, but they had that freedom in LMP1 and wandered off from that after a couple of years. I think it was more that they didn't want to spend money and lose, because there's nowhere to hide in F1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2020 ==

My expectation is that we'll see a manufacturer ICE (likely as we have now, relatively low capacity V6 turbo but more restrictive formula for both balance of performance and cost control) with a stock MGU-K/hybrid system

It'll be interesting. There are plenty of spec parts in F1- McLaren make all the ECUs- but I'm not convinced that a spec MGU-K and MGU-H wouldn't be a step too far. F1 needs to remain a constructors championship to a large extent, going down the spec route would be a mistake IMO.

 

[Domh245]

It'll be interesting. There are plenty of spec parts in F1- McLaren make all the ECUs- but I'm not convinced that a spec MGU-K and MGU-H wouldn't be a step too far. F1 needs to remain a constructors championship to a large extent, going down the spec route would be a mistake IMO.

Spec hybrid units are being introduced in indycar* & IMSA, and are one of the better things to make spec, as it's where there's a lot of scope for R&D wars and trickery. I would drop the MGU-H, technically brilliant as it is, it's a huge cost and very tricky to do well, leaving just a spec MGU-K/battery/CE. I agree about the need for F1 to be a constructors championship as much as a drivers, but the messages coming from Liberty are going the other way - the 2022 regulations for bodywork are incredibly prescriptive. Similarly, I'd rather have a 24 car grid with the caveat of limited constructor 'input' if the opposite is a 10 car grid


*to which Honda (North America/HPD) have committed to their next gen engines

 

[Tetchytyke]

Similarly, I'd rather have a 24 car grid with the caveat of limited constructor 'input' if the opposite is a 10 car grid

The teams have just voted to make any new team put a huge bond down, US$200m IIRC. So you won't have more than 10 teams any time soon.

IndyCar has been a spec series ever since it started in 1996, and the defunct CART series was basically spec too by the end, so going spec there isn't really anything new.

With the hybrid elements going to become ever more important, it'll be interesting. In terms of cost it would make sense, I completely agree, I just think it would be a step too far for what is supposed to be a constructors series.

 

[Non Multi]

It was going to be a straight four before Ferrari (I think? among others) protested. Lack of noise possibly - though the V6s sound far better in person than they ever do on broadcast.

Unless I'm much mistaken, Ferrari weren't planning on selling road cars with 4 cylinder engines. The turbocharged hybrid inline 4 was supposed to be a 'global racing engine' that could be used in various motorsport categories.

VW group abandoned the World Endurance Championship because they were running diesel hybrids with Audi... Then Dieselgate came along. The Porsche LMP1h project achieved all its goals and was also ended. Formula E was significantly cheaper than LMP1h and suits the group's post Dieselgate rush to electrification.

Although Porsche supplied McLaren with customer V6 turbos in the mid 1980s with title winning success, they also supplied Footwork Arrows in 1991. The V12 engine was overweight, bulky and the deal with Porsche was terminated mid-season.

I recall that Cosworth were working on an F1 turbo hybrid inline 4 for 2014 (before it changed to a V6) and could offer a hybrid V6 if a customer needed one in 2022.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I'm sure that's what they said, but they had that freedom in LMP1 and wandered off from that after a couple of years. I think it was more that they didn't want to spend money and lose, because there's nowhere to hide in F1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2020 ==

Audi were continuously in Le Mans from 1999 to 2016 which is a bit more than just a couple of years even looking solely at the Porsche 919 it ran for four years. They most certainly did not 'wander off' either, they pulled out due to a massive emissions scandal which aside from losing them a lot of money it clearly wasn't going to work having their race car promote diesel any more so it made a lot of sense to go into cheaper, fully electric racing.

The idea that they wouldn't take part if they were going to lose is a particularly strange idea given how often they've taken part in motorsports and never won, the 911 is probably one of the most iconic Porsches and currently the GT3 cars are not doing well against BMW, Audi and Mercedes yet they keep them going. Given they had a well proven four cylinder engine and the difficulty for Ferrari, Renault and Honda to get their engines workable show why VW wouldn't want to be starting from scratch when they didn't need to having gone through all the pain already of the new engine already.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2020 ==

I'm not sure how you figure that one out? We're seeing a whole host of hybridised vehicles coming to market now, admittedly some are 'only' mild hybrids, but there's plenty of plug-ins and 'self-charging' hybrids as well. The one thing that the car industry is turning away from is pure ICE (they're simply embracing more EVs as well as hybrids) so reverting to a pure ICE formula in f1 would be massively surprising.

My expectation is that we'll see a manufacturer ICE (likely as we have now, relatively low capacity V6 turbo but more restrictive formula for both balance of performance and cost control) with a stock MGU-K/hybrid system

Now there's a reasonable choice of electric cars they've very much taken the limelight from the hybrids but on top of that, modern hybrids simply do not do what they claim. They often cannot run on pure battery power because they need help from the engine to run heating, air-con and other features then out on the open road they make the vehicles less efficient because the small batteries are quickly exhausted and then the car is carrying around extra dead weight a non-hybrid version doesn't. Assuming people even charge their cars which many don't:

Hybrid vehicles emit 2.5 times more CO2 than official tests indicate

Carbon dioxide emissions from plug-in hybrid vehicles are as much as two and a half times higher than official tests, according to new research. Transport & Environment (T&E) and Greenpeace researchers analysed a database of real-world emissions from hybrid vehicles…

airqualitynews.com

I feel the 'self charging' comment says it all really as it's clearly nonsense but manufacturers are desperate to try and save a market they've pumped a lot of money into that's looking increasingly fragile. Bear in mind that hybrids are being treated the same as pure ICE vehicles by governments in being banned from sale with relatively tight deadlines so there is no incentive for companies to invest in hybrids any more so they're putting the money into pure electric instead.

 

[Domh245]

Now there's a reasonable choice of electric cars they've very much taken the limelight from the hybrids but on top of that, modern hybrids simply do not do what they claim. They often cannot run on pure battery power because they need help from the engine to run heating, air-con and other features then out on the open road they make the vehicles less efficient because the small batteries are quickly exhausted and then the car is carrying around extra dead weight a non-hybrid version doesn't. Assuming people even charge their cars which many don't:

I feel the 'self charging' comment says it all really as it's clearly nonsense but manufacturers are desperate to try and save a market they've pumped a lot of money into that's looking increasingly fragile. Bear in mind that hybrids are being treated the same as pure ICE vehicles by governments in being banned from sale with relatively tight deadlines so there is no incentive for companies to invest in hybrids any more so they're putting the money into pure electric instead.

Pure EVs are very much the preferred option and the poster children now, but they also only account for a tiny fraction of sales and remain more expensive than conventional counterparts.

You're also making the mistake of conflating plug-in hybrids with hybrids. Hybridisation is a range, from the much maligned plug-in through to mild hybrids, which are near enough just stop-start systems on steroids. You claim that they are less efficient, but you seem to have missed a key statement from the article:

Over the lifetime of the vehicle, a new hybrid vehicle in 2020 will emit 28 tonnes of CO2, compared to a petrol or diesel car that will emit 39 and 41 respectively.

ie, even with their compromises they still emit much less than a conventional car, and that's the key reason that manufacturers still back them. 'self-charging' is a marketing phrase that Toyota have had to introduce because the fuel saving and reduced CO2 that until ~2015 was the unique selling point of their hybrids has been usurped by the zero-emissions mileage that plug-ins can achieve.

Yes Hybrids will end up being killed off by the various ICE bans (although I was under the impression that in the UK hybrids were fine, 'pure ICE' wasn't) but until BEVs become cheap and mature enough to become widespread, which won't be for a good few years yet, the various flavours of hybrid are going to be sticking around as there's no other way for manufacturers to meet the fleet CO2 limits. BEV is the main aim for the investment and R&D, but hybrids will be doing the heavy lifting in terms of sales for the near future. That still means your original statement (about dropping hybrid and going back to pure ICE) is nonsense

 

[birchesgreen]

Interesting problem if F1 did want to go EV, Formula e have the exclusive FIA rights for single seater open cockpit electric racing for the next 20 years.

 

[D365]

Interesting problem if F1 did want to go EV, Formula e have the exclusive FIA rights for single seater open cockpit electric racing for the next 20 years.

As we all know, contracts are only worth the paper they’re written on. I’m sure Agag & co. have negotiated themselves a break clause or two, that would compensate them rather well.

 

[birchesgreen]

As we all know, contracts are only worth the paper they’re written on. I’m sure Agag & co. have negotiated themselves a break clause or two, that would compensate them rather well.

Oh yes its not an insurmountable problem just a bit of a chicane if they wanted to go down that route.

 

[greatvoyager]

Oh yes its not an insurmountable problem just a bit of a chicane if they wanted to go down that route.

That’s true, will have to wait and see.

 

[LOL The Irony]

And Hamilton has equaled Schumacher's win record, with Danny Ric getting his first podium since Monaco 2018.

 

[Darandio]

And what a drive from the Hulk.

 

[LOL The Irony]

And what a drive from the Hulk.

110% deserved winning DotD. Only got 10 laps of running before the race, was .400 off of Q2 and went from 20th - 8th.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Delighted to see Danny Ric back on the podium, he's been driving the wheels off that Renault. It'll be interesting to see if he's made the right call in jumping to a Merc-powered McLaren next year. That McLaren seems a decent piece of kit, I reckon Norris would have been well placed before his engine went.

I see Albon is still as thick as two short planks. How he's keeping that seat is quite beyond me, even with Red Bull upsetting all their young drivers. The guy's a clown. Even Dan Ticktum would do better.