Formula 1

[DarloRich]

Lets just let Horner and Wolf have a fight in the car park to settle this! We all know they want to.

That or a re run of the race tonight

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

Complaint aboit verstappen overtaking under safety car dismissed

 

[cjmillsnun]

Apparently mercedes have protested the result. Sigh.

Can you blame them? The race director failed to follow the rules. I doubt it will change anything but they have to protest to ensure rules are followed in future.

 

[KashmireHawker]

Merc claim of Max passing Lewis under Safety Car (Article 48.8) DISMISSED.

The other appeal is due in a mo.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Merc claim of Max passing Lewis under Safety Car (Article 48.8) DISMISSED.

The other appeal is due in a mo.

It will be dismissed too.

 

[O L Leigh]

"Taxi for Mr Masi...?"

What a shambles. I think Masi messed up again. If he was going to permit the lapped cars to pass the safety car then he should have followed the rule for that, otherwise he should have ended the safety car period with the lapped cars still in position.

There is a rule book which the FIA expects the teams to follow so it seems not unreasonable for the teams to expect the FIA to follow them too. It would appear that decisions around the use and eventual withdrawal of the safety car made a material difference to Mercedes strategy decisions. You either have a set of rules that govern the sport or you just leave it all up to the interpretation of the stewards and the race director, but then that just leaves any decision open to challenge. So I think they are right to lodge a protest, even though it will make no difference to the outcome. As DC stated on the C4 coverage, it's divisive and doesn't do the sport any favours.

 

[baz962]

Decision stands

 

[DarloRich]

Decision stands

It was never going to be overturned. The title cant be decided like that.

 

[baz962]

Fully agree.

 

[KashmireHawker]

I wouldn't be surprised, if Merc give this a shot in the Court of Abritation for Sport as a result of the massive confusion in the rules.

What a shambles all round; no matter who you support!

 

[the sniper]

Decision stands

For today, at least.

Mercedes argued there had been a breach of Article 48.12 of the regulations which state that “any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car” and “once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap.”

The stewards said that although that article may not have been “applied fully” as the safety car came in at the end of the same lap, “Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message ‘Safety Car in this lap’ has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the safety car at the end of that lap.

"That notwithstanding, Mercedes’ request that the Stewards remediate the matter by amending the classification to reflect the positions at the end of the penultimate lap, this is a step that the Stewards believe is effectively shortening the race retrospectively, and hence not appropriate.”

Mercedes protest over Abu Dhabi F1 race restart not upheld, Verstappen champion

www.autosport.com

Since when could you just choose to follow half of a rule (if that)...? Some incredible precedents have been set by Mr Masi this year!

 

[DelW]

I never regarded Schumacher as being the legitimate champion in 1994, nor would I have done so in 1997 had he been successful in his attempt at knocking Villeneuve off the track.

This time the driver isn't at fault, but I regard the outcome as equally illegitimate. Masi has lost whatever credibility he still had, after a series of fiascos he's produced.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Toto is equally as bad!

One thing that needs to come out of this season is an end to the constant lobbying of the race director during the race. I've noticed lots of people complaining about how Horner was speaking to him during that final stage yet it was only a few laps earlier that Toto was heard begging Masi not to introduce a full safety car when Giovanazzi stopped out on track. Both as bad as each other.

Totally agree.

 

[Darandio]

Mercedes confirming they will appeal

 

[DarloRich]

F1 earned itself lots of new viewers because of the head to head nature of the final race ( people I know with no F1 interest watched the race today). They wont be back after the farce that was the end of the race and post race nonsense.

Credibility completely trashed. Will make a decent end to the next series of drive to survive mind!

 

[daodao]

Mercedes confirming they will appeal

Bad losers. It was clumsily handled, but is the right decision.

 

[D365]

Bad losers. It was clumsily handled, but is the right decision.

Mercedes well within their right to protest - and why wouldn’t they. However I do agree that there’s no way the race result could/should be overturned.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Oh well onward to 2022 with new cars and much closer racing

 

[LOL The Irony]

Decision stands

As it should.

For today, at least.

Mercedes protest over Abu Dhabi F1 race restart not upheld, Verstappen champion

www.autosport.com

Since when could you just choose to follow half of a rule (if that)...? Some incredible precedents have been set by Mr Masi this year!

"After investigating ourselves, we The Stewards have come to the conclusion that we The Stewards haven't partaken in any wrongdoing. We The Stewards aren't guilty and if you wish to complain about we The Stewards, please contact the Court of Arbitration.

With love,
The Stewards"

Welcome to Masi town, where everyone's a clown.

Mercedes confirming they will appeal

As they should.

Oh well onward to 2022 with new cars and much closer racing

We'll see on the latter point.

 

[SynthD]

F1 earned itself lots of new viewers because of the head to head nature of the final race ( people I know with no F1 interest watched the race today). They wont be back after the farce that was the end of the race and post race nonsense.

Credibility completely trashed. Will make a decent end to the next series of drive to survive mind!

At least one new viewer I know has already forgotten the controversy. They’re looking forward to March.

 

[Spamcan81]

At least one new viewer I know has already forgotten the controversy. They’re looking forward to March.

And a friend of mine who prefers two wheels to four but decided to watch F1 today, has confirmed he has no appetite to watch any more F1 if that's the way things are governed.

 

[the sniper]

As it should.

"After investigating ourselves, we The Stewards have come to the conclusion that we The Stewards haven't partaken in any wrongdoing. We The Stewards aren't guilty and if you wish to complain about we The Stewards, please contact the Court of Arbitration.

With love,
The Stewards"

Welcome to Masi town, where everyone's a clown.

It's almost worst than that, in that they admit they didn't follow the rule in question "fully", but it doesn't matter because a separate rule was subsequently followed, so that's that... It's bizarre.

Ordinarily I'd think that the result should stand regardless. But this case is just odd. It was an entirely unnecessary intervention by Masi that was against the rules. Nobody foresaw the decision he made (even David Croft understood the situation/rule correctly in the moment! ) because it was neither of the two options available. I just can't see that it's at all open to interpretation and I don't understand how he was able to make such a call/mistake.

Personally I don't care for Hamilton or Verstappen, but it seems that something that should have been simple (if anti climatic) got made very complicated by the intervention of someone who's interpretation/understanding of the rules can never be second-guessed.

 

[Spamcan81]

I think Mr Masi should be getting shuffled into an 'exciting new opportunity' as Race Director of the FIA International Hill Climb Cup instead...

But going forwards, the radio traffic/lobbying from the teams to the FIA during the race should be stopped, it's pathetic.

I agree and the discussion between Masi and teams as to what sort of penalty they'd accept as punishment for transgression during the race should stop too. Just apply the rules fairly and consistently.

 

[JohnMcL7]

And a friend of mine who prefers two wheels to four but decided to watch F1 today, has confirmed he has no appetite to watch any more F1 if that's the way things are governed.

To be fair even the dullest two wheel races are still better than any recent F1 races, I mainly prefer four wheel racing (particularly GT3 endurance racing) but some stunning MotoGP races a few years ago reminded me of what proper racing is and that I was just watching F1 for the sake of it so gave up on F1. I see all the comments about how great the F1 has been this year yet most of the time Verstappen/Hamilton couldn't actually race wheel to wheel with one car having a significant advantage and most of the battling taking place off the track in the form of penalties and arguments about steward decisions. I can't think of a more farcical finish to any motorsport event but I guess it's a fitting finish to the nonsense that's been F1 this year.

 

[STINT47]

Hamilton should have been champion today. He was in charge from the start and had the faster car. If the rules were applied as written he would have been.

I cannot however begrudge Verstappen and Red Bull taking advantage to win. Red Bull took the correct decision to pit him for softs when the safety car came out and when the race resumed Verstappen did what any racer would do and won.

As a Hamilton fan I am gutted as I thought he had it in the bag but full respect to Verstappen and Red Bull. Plus their win is based on their performance over 22 races not just the last lap of the last race.

The real issue today was the race director and the way decisions are made. A review needs to be carried out next season to stop some of the things we have seen over the last few races happening again. A good start would be to stop teams lobbying the race director like a politician and some clarifying of the rules and procedures that have brought the sport into disrepute recently. Whilst I also hate to say it a review should also consider if Masi is up to the job.

In my view Mercedes should let this go now. I cannot see how an appeal would ever succeed as the rules are ambiguous so the decision and rationale made by the stewards will still stand I can understand why they want to appeal, I was angry and gutted by what happened today as well but sometimes you have to accept what happened and be a good loser rather than creating more bad coverage for F1.

Overall not a good day for F1 and not how anyone wanted to see the championship concluded but what is done is done. Let's try to learn from it and have a less controversial 2022.

PS this could all be academic next year. With the new regs Mazepin will have the car to beat and wrap the championship up in July !!

 

[baz962]

A few quid on Mazepin then , probably good odds.

 

[Domh245]

As a Hamilton fan I am gutted as I thought he had it in the bag but full respect to Verstappen and Red Bull. Plus their win is based on their performance over 22 races not just the last lap of the last race.

Indeed, the silver lining to yesterday is that it goes a way to making up for the bad luck in Baku and Budapest. Lewis would have been the worthy race winner and would have been a worthy champion but Verstappen did have a slight edge over the season

In my view Mercedes should let this go now. I cannot see how an appeal would ever succeed as the rules are ambiguous so the decision and rationale made by the stewards will still stand I can understand why they want to appeal, I was angry and gutted by what happened today as well but sometimes you have to accept what happened and be a good loser rather than creating more bad coverage for F1.

I don't think they're playing for the race result to be altered - at best they might declare the race null & void (still leaving Verstappen champion) but it's a purely procedural thing now. If we can get it confirmed that rules don't matter, Masi can do whatever he likes and say 'that's motor racing' then Mercedes can respond appropriately (hopefully pressuring other teams to get the useless man out of the role)

 

[DarloRich]

The real issue today was the race director and the way decisions are made. A review needs to be carried out next season to stop some of the things we have seen over the last few races happening again. A good start would be to stop teams lobbying the race director like a politician and some clarifying of the rules and procedures that have brought the sport into disrepute recently. Whilst I also hate to say it a review should also consider if Masi is up to the job.

I agree - I like the team radio stuff but the race director should do just that: Direct. He should not negotiate and the teams should just be allowed to say yes or no with no leading to a review process rather than a debate/negotiation over the phone. I would also allow only one team member to speak with the race director.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Is there any other sport that allows non-participants to have discussions with the bloke in charge during the event?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Is there any other sport that allows non-participants to have discussions with the bloke in charge during the event?

The teams are participants and the team principals represent the team, however negotiating with the race director needs to be got rid of along with the race director’s right to change the rules on the fly.

 

[DPQ]

My thoughts on this afternoon 24hrs and a sleep.

Max is the Champion. Whether he should
be or not, there is no way to resolve this without Max being Champion.

Even if the FIA void the race, Max would be Champion, and Mercedes know this.

There needs to be a lot of internal work at the FIA to ensure all the rules issues this season are not repeated. Whether Masi has to go, is up to the FIA, but Mercedes won't take it well if he stays.

Mercedes will complain and lodge appeals, but at most they will get an undisclosed compensation, and maybe not even that.