Formula 1

[DarloRich]

I don't think he's over a second a lap more special than all of his team-mates though. That's a huge gap.

it is but they don't put anyone top rank in the other car to measure against.

At Benetton he was seconds a lap faster than Verstappen Sr, Lehto, and Herbert. It's pretty much accepted that Benetton were cheating in 94 and 95 and I'd therefore consider it likely that they only used the cheat mode on Schumacher's car. Verstappen Sr is pretty certain in his belief that they did (and his experience at Benetton is why he's so robust in defending Max).

Or, Schumacher was just better. Lots better. I would say they were cheating and favouring the other driver if I was getting a beating every week! Easier that admitting you aren't as good as you want to be or think you are!

When he went to Ferrari they weren't cheating. Schumacher was still faster than Irvine, Barrichello, and Massa but the gap wasn't like it was when he was at Benetton.

Or, they were higher rank drivers. Irvine came close to winning the title when Schumacher was injured.

 

[Leyland Bus]

It has never been proven outright that Benneton were cheating especially as the FiA were doing all and sundry to stop Schumacher winning the title that year. They scrutinised everything and came up naught...

Schumacher was just better than his teammates, especially physically.

Re: Irvine and '99, alot of his momentum was down to McLaren doing everything they could to shoot themselves in the feet, knees, the lot...

 

[SynthD]

I’m still not sure what Piastri was bitching about after Singapore, what Norris did was basically a carbon copy of what Piastri did last year at Monza. They only didn’t bang wheels then because Norris got out of the way.

Piastri is right to consider banging wheels a big step up, that's normal even without Papaya Rules. But the replays he has access to after the race show it wasn't Norris's intent, just like Texas turn one.

I don't think he's over a second a lap more special than all of his team-mates though. That's a huge gap.

With Newey cars there's often one driver in the team with the right driving style for the design characteristics.

 

[PG]

I knew the contest for the WDC was hotting up but it seems its now worthy of content warnings on TV

Photo of text box describing Channel 4 coverage of the U.S. race. Text reads:
With just 22 points separating the McLaren duo, the championship battle heats up. And Austin's Circuit of the Americas is built for overtaking drama with its wide uphill charge to Turn 1.

Strong lang/adult humour/sex/full nudity/violence

 

[Leyland Bus]

I knew the contest for the WDC was hotting up but it seems its now worthy of content warnings on TV
View attachment 190910
Photo of text box describing Channel 4 coverage of the U.S. race. Text reads:
With just 22 points separating the McLaren duo, the championship battle heats up. And Austin's Circuit of the Americas is built for overtaking drama with its wide uphill charge to Turn 1.

Strong lang/adult humour/sex/full nudity/violence

Channel 4 going all out to attract new viewers

 

[Tetchytyke]

It has never been proven outright that Benneton were cheating especially as the FiA were doing all and sundry to stop Schumacher winning the title that year. They scrutinised everything and came up naught...

I don’t think the penalties dished out by the FIA were particularly harsh. Irvine got a three race ban the same year for doing less than what Schumacher did in ignoring a black flag. And the Belgium disqualification was because of the plank being worn down too much.

The traction control, ABS, and launch control systems were all on the Benetton in a secret menu on the laptop. The FIA couldn’t prove they used it, but it was there (as it was for McLaren too).

The fuel rig tampering was similar. Benetton taking that fuel filler out cut their pit stops by at least 0.5-1s, but they said the manufacturer had allowed them to do it. The FIA couldn’t prove the manufacturer hadn’t because Larousse, also linked to Briatore, had said the manufacturer had let them change things too.

It wasn’t ever proven but just about everyone in F1 thinks Benetton were cheating, at least in 1994. Especially after what the same team and sane individuals did in Singapore in 2007.

Even Verstappen Sr thought they were cheating, and he drove for them!

 

[Broucek]

IIRC, some drivers at other teams thought the Schumacher Benetton was different to the 2nd car....

 

[Leyland Bus]

IIRC, some drivers at other teams thought the Schumacher Benetton was different to the 2nd car....

There was alosrts that season. Even Senna thought they were using traction control but that was dispelled. The book "1994 - The untold story of a tragic and controversial F1 season" is a very good read on it all.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Even Senna thought they were using traction control but that was dispelled.

It wasn't dispelled.

The FIA found that there was traction control, ABS, and launch control software on the Benetton. This was in a hidden menu on the laptop. You scrolled down past two or three blank menu options, clicked a blank menu option, then went into it to activate it.

What the FIA couldn't prove is that the software was ever used. Benetton said they couldn't disable it as the software belonged to Ford Cosworth, and they said it was hidden to make sure they didn't use it. But we only ever had their word for it. And we all know how trustworthy Mr Briatore is!

 

[Leyland Bus]

It wasn't dispelled.

The FIA found that there was traction control, ABS, and launch control software on the Benetton. This was in a hidden menu on the laptop. You scrolled down past two or three blank menu options, clicked a blank menu option, then went into it to activate it.

What the FIA couldn't prove is that the software was ever used. Benetton said they couldn't disable it as the software belonged to Ford Cosworth, and they said it was hidden to make sure they didn't use it. But we only ever had their word for it. And we all know how trustworthy Mr Briatore is!

That is what I meant by dispelled. Perhaps I should have used " " around it

 

[Cloud Strife]

It wasn’t ever proven but just about everyone in F1 thinks Benetton were cheating, at least in 1994.

From what I understand, it's believed now that Senna was simply wrong about Schumacher using traction control in-race, because not only was Schumacher's driving style rather different to what others were doing, but also he had the advantage of being able to use left foot braking with the semi-automatic gearboxes. Essentially, he (and Mika) were able to more or less create some form of traction control that way, whereas poorer drivers (Verstappen, Brundle) just didn't have the skill to do it. There were only two teams using two pedals that season, so Senna had no way of knowing how these cars actually worked.

There's quite a lot of well sourced evidence that the combination of left foot braking and the greater control it gave over the car in the corners was what misled Senna into believing that it was traction control in use. I believe Senna when he said that something was wrong about the engine noise, but if he had no experience with left foot braking, it's easy to understand why he would think that it was traction control. When you combine it with the fact that the Williams was a pig of a car and Benneton had better aero, it's easy to see why Senna believed that the Schumacher car was cheating.

One other thing that emerged was that Benneton were using a legal form of traction control: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rotational-inertia-led-traction-control-willem-toet/ - but this was legal, it just wrecked engines. If you combine this with left foot braking, it's likely that Senna did hear something, he just didn't know the specifics. There's also the point that Schumacher's own driving style involved bringing the car to the point where he actually started losing control, only to regain control of the car straight away. This was different to most drivers, who would estimate where the limit was and aim to stay just under it. I'd actually say that with Schumacher's skill and the brilliance of this system, it's easy to see why he was the fastest driver on the grid that season. It also seems that Schumacher was simply fast enough to unlock all the potential of the aero, whereas Jos simply wasn't.

On the other hand, Benneton's nonsense about launch control code was just that, nonsense. Even in 1994 with ancient software development tools, it would have been easy to remove the code or to make sure that it couldn't be used at all. My gut feeling is that while the process of selecting it wasn't easy, Schumacher was the kind of driver who could and would practice it until he could do it every single time. Yes, the FIA couldn't prove it was used, but I'd be willing to bet that it was.

The fuel filter was textbook cheating, and there's nothing more to it.

 

[Bungle73]

An interesting grid. Could be spicy.

I've got my pit wall set up for this evening's race.....

 

[Mogster]

An interesting grid. Could be spicy.

I've got my pit wall set up for this evening's race.....

View attachment 191142

Good effort

 

[Leyland Bus]

An interesting grid. Could be spicy.

I've got my pit wall set up for this evening's race.....

View attachment 191142

Superb!!

 

[Bungle73]

Thanks.

It's the Sky coverage, combined with the Sky Race Control for driver onboards, combined with the masses of data you get from F1TV Access.

 

[PrincesWinsdor]

Thanks.

It's the Sky coverage, combined with the Sky Race Control for driver onboards, combined with the masses of data you get from F1TV Access.

Given that Piastri's championship leading position was lost to Norris and that they're only separated by such a small margin, the battle between the two Mclaren drivers will no doubt be Hamilton vs Alonso 2.0.

 

[Tetchytyke]

From what I understand, it's believed now that Senna was simply wrong about Schumacher using traction control in-race, because not only was Schumacher's driving style rather different to what others were doing, but also he had the advantage of being able to use left foot braking with the semi-automatic gearboxes. Essentially, he (and Mika) were able to more or less create some form of traction control that way

I think that's the story that Benetton and Willem Toet (who was a senior man at Benetton at the time- so of course he'd deny any cheating!) were happy to spread about. But remember Senna was a team-mate to Hakkinen and would know all about left-foot braking. Left-foot braking was a bit more unusual then in F1 with most drivers growing up on manual transmissions, where you'd heel-and-toe instead, but there were a few who were doing it. It was more common in rallying. It's also not like Ayrton didn't know how to pedal a car quickly.

My gut feeling is that while the process of selecting it wasn't easy, Schumacher was the kind of driver who could and would practice it until he could do it every single time. Yes, the FIA couldn't prove it was used, but I'd be willing to bet that it was.

It was only available on a menu on a laptop plugged into the car, hence why they couldn't prove it was used. But yes, I'd bet my mortgage it was used. Some of Schumacher's starts that year were extraordinary.

Speaking of cheating, sad to see the stewards still refuse to penalise Verstappen for playing bumper cars. I support teams rather than drivers and I've never liked Ferrari so I can't say I was devastated to see Hamilton get penalised, but whatever he got Verstappen should have got the same. 10s seemed very harsh too; I can't help but wonder whether that's the FIA President getting his own little micro-revenge on Hamilton for daring to criticise him.

Everyone also seems to have glossed over Verstappen pulling about 0.7s back on Leclerc through the stadium section when it was under waved double-yellows. Should have been a penalty for failing to slow enough. Luckily the VSC meant it didn't matter.

Finally, the booing was disgraceful. It's weird how, when Hamilton was Verstappen's closest rival he was getting booed, and then when Russell became his closest rival he got booed. And now Norris is his closest rival and he's the one getting booed. The common denominator across all of this is the Verstappen fanbase. They really are vile toxic individuals, just like their hero.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2025 ==

Given that Piastri's championship leading position was lost to Norris and that they're only separated by such a small margin, the battle between the two Mclaren drivers will no doubt be Hamilton vs Alonso 2.0.

Possibly. They will take points off each other but they just need to focus on beating Verstappen first of all. Norris put ten points on Verstappen so that's a good start.

 

[sannox]

Have to say I thought that was one of Norris's best drives. Dominant all weekend and cruised it.

Piastri has lost form at the worst possible moment - I thought it was done when Norris retired in Netherlands and did nothing at Baku.

 

[JamesT]

Speaking of cheating, sad to see the stewards still refuse to penalise Verstappen for playing bumper cars. I support teams rather than drivers and I've never liked Ferrari so I can't say I was devastated to see Hamilton get penalised, but whatever he got Verstappen should have got the same. 10s seemed very harsh too; I can't help but wonder whether that's the FIA President getting his own little micro-revenge on Hamilton for daring to criticise him.

Much as I'm loathe to defend Verstappen, didn't he give the place back after his excursion across the grass? Whereas Hamilton didn't.

 

[SynthD]

Speaking of cheating, sad to see the stewards still refuse to penalise Verstappen for playing bumper cars. I support teams rather than drivers and I've never liked Ferrari so I can't say I was devastated to see Hamilton get penalised, but whatever he got Verstappen should have got the same. 10s seemed very harsh too; I can't help but wonder whether that's the FIA President getting his own little micro-revenge on Hamilton for daring to criticise him.

Twitter thinks the stewards are favouring the championship challenger. This claim has come up in previous years, though I don't remember anyone showing it was consistently true.

Finally, the booing was disgraceful. It's weird how, when Hamilton was Verstappen's closest rival he was getting booed, and then when Russell became his closest rival he got booed. And now Norris is his closest rival and he's the one getting booed. The common denominator across all of this is the Verstappen fanbase. They really are vile toxic individuals, just like their hero.

Reddit thinks this is because Norris said something negative about Perez. There are not enough Verstappen fans in Mexico to cause booing, he can't even get on the mid-race driver of the day top three any more.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Reddit thinks this is because Norris said something negative about Perez.

The Race think its because of the team orders at Monza, so I think we can take from that that the clowns at Mexico City don't really know why they're booing.

Behaviour really does seem to be getting worse across the board. You never used to get this sort of behaviour in F1 before the Drive to Survive whoppers all turned up. Same with the golf during the Ryder Cup.

 

[DarloRich]

Speaking of cheating, sad to see the stewards still refuse to penalise Verstappen for playing bumper cars. I support teams rather than drivers and I've never liked Ferrari so I can't say I was devastated to see Hamilton get penalised, but whatever he got Verstappen should have got the same. 10s seemed very harsh too;

Much as I'm loathe to defend Verstappen, didn't he give the place back after his excursion across the grass? Whereas Hamilton didn't.

Verstappen got ahead of both Russell and Hamilton via the grass at turn one via an, erm, "aggressive" approach to T1 and gave one place back. Can only assume he got a lap one free pass from the stewards on that point. (Leclerc also took to the grass and passed Norris but gave the pace back )

Hamilton got a 10 second penalty for gaining an advantage by cutting the track at turn 4. Not sure he got an advantage at that point but the fact he didn't give the place back is why he got the penalty imo. It was basically all one event from turn 1-4/5 and either both or none should have got a penalty. It was very poor but the stewards but they were odd all race.

PS: I think Verstappen being Verstappen actually made his race worse. A bit of patience and he could have finished higher as he was fast for long periods ( except when he seemed to drop off the Ferrari for a bit - perhaps extending his tyre life )

Ps 2 - Bearman career and joint team best coming home in 4th - great effort

 

[Tetchytyke]

Much as I'm loathe to defend Verstappen, didn't he give the place back after his excursion across the grass?

On lap one, he gave the place back to Norris but not Hamilton or Russell, both of whom he got past by inventing his own race circuit. But lap one always has special rules.

But he bounced over the grass at turn 2/3 just before Hamilton got his penalty for doing exactly the same thing at the very next corner.

Both should have got the same penalty or neither should have been penalised.

It was very poor but the stewards but they were odd all race.

The only thing they got right was the VSC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2025 ==

Speaking of toxic cesspit fans, I see Piastri’s fans are out in force saying it’s all a conspiracy and bRiTiSh BiAs because Oscar’s lost his mojo.

How Norris losing 18 points with a technical failure fits in this conspiracy, who knows.

 

[PauloDavesi]

Willem Toet was using the same traction control software on his car in the RAC Hillclimb championship for several years. There is no doubt that Bennetton did use traction control, even if the FIA were unable/chose not to confirm it.

 

[JD2168]

The race I found was rather good, much better than the US Grand Prix & one of the better races at Mexico.

I was impressed with Ollie Bearman’s drive contending for a large portion of the race for a podium finish & holding off theoretically faster cars in the McLaren & the Mercedes.

The VSC spoilt the end of the race as it was building up to the last lap also Carlos had pulled the car largely out of the way & it was in the slowest section anyway so they could have covered it with a yellow flag area & removed the DRS on the straight to the stadium section.

The title race continues to be interesting with Piastri’s current lack of pace a concern at this stage. Lando dominated the weekend & for me the booing goes back to Monza.

The next race is a sprint weekend at Brazil where weather conditions tend to play a role in the weekend

 

[DarloRich]

Did Red Bull put the Tsunoda settings on the Verstappen car meaning Max was knocked out in P1.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did Red Bull put the Tsunoda settings on the Verstappen car meaning Max was knocked out in P1.

They definitely chose Option 13 from the laptop for the race though!

 

[DarloRich]

They definitely chose Option 13 from the laptop for the race though!

that was a hell of a drive! He did put a new engine in before the race but pit lane to podium is pretty impressive

 

[sannox]

Verstappen was excellent in the race, although Red Bull gave him a lot of new engine components and modified the suspension which probably helped. Interlagos is always possible to pass on, some other tracks you'd be in bother doing the same.

I've been critical of some of Norris's driving this season, but the last few races he's looked really solid. I didn't see him pulling out 24 points on Piastri from his position a few races back.

The pressure looks to have really got to Piastri who is turning in some average drives at a crucial point. I think he was unlucky with the penalty - I thought it was 60/40 on him, but I could see why he got it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think he was unlucky with the penalty - I thought it was 60/40 on him, but I could see why he got it.

People criticising Antonelli are fools. He was perfectly entitled to take his usual racing line, both under the current guidance (which I think actually encourages divebombing as a race to the apex) and under any previous version of racing etiquette.

Piastri licked the stamp and sent it but he was simply too far back for the move to ever come off. Antonelli was on the racing line and was always going to turn in there. It was a foolish divebomb.

You can argue that 10s was harsh, 5s may have been fairer, but he was rightly penalised.