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Formula 1

Cloud Strife

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I suspect the whole saga with Horner being public was to destabilise the team to get max out.

Hard to tell. If you believe the gossip, Horner wanted a Toto-style deal with Red Bull in that he'd become a part owner in reward for the incredible job that he's done with Red Bull, but he was flatly denied by the Thai part of Red Bull. Then there's the ongoing power struggle between the Thai and Austrian owners, where Horner was backed by the Thais against the Austrians, causing the team to effectively function outside of the broader Red Bull sports stable.

Horner was always on borrowed time after the death of Dietrich Mateschitz, and it's not a big secret that the Austrian side of Red Bull have been very keen on moving away from the Toto/Vasseur-style unquestioned boss to a more corporate structure where individual directors answer to Mintzlaff's team rather than the team principal.

IMO, I think Red Bull simply realised that the job was too much for Horner now. Red Bull is a huge operation, and Horner was losing a lot of the key people that made it a success. F1 has a pretty limited talented pool when it comes to staff because of the spending cap, and with Horner being unable to keep Newey and potentially Max as well as many others, his time was probably up.
 
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Broucek

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It seems VERY abrupt and undignified. I wonder if something out of the ordinary has happened?
 

SynthD

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Horner wanted a Toto-style deal with Red Bull in that he'd become a part owner in reward for the incredible job that he's done with Red Bull, but he was flatly denied by the Thai part of Red Bull.
Toto Wolff had many millions from his previous career, I thought he legitimately bought his third of the Mercedes team.
 

Cloud Strife

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Toto Wolff had many millions from his previous career, I thought he legitimately bought his third of the Mercedes team.

This is something that's never been really clarified. While the common narrative is that Wolff bought the stake himself, there's some suspicion that Mercedes wanted him onboard as they'd seen what he was doing with Williams and that he had the skill/talent to lead the team, so he didn't buy the initial 30% for the actual cash value of the team. He already had quite close links with Mercedes through the DTM team and as a driver manager, so I wouldn't rule out that Mercedes gave him a substantial discount. The number floated at the time was $50m, but there were rumours that he got it for as little as $30m.

There might also have been some other quiet investors behind him, but it's never been made public.

Either way, understandable why Horner would want the same deal, especially after delivering 14 world championships. I suspect that at least part of the deal with Dietrich Mateschitz was that he had complete control over the Red Bull operations and that he only answered to Dietrich himself, and it's well known that Horner would talk directly to him about major decisions, not anyone else within the Austrian side of Red Bull.

So, all things considered, I think this is about him losing the power struggle, not about anything else.
 

RailWonderer

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Horner was always on borrowed time after the death of Dietrich Mateschitz, and it's not a big secret that the Austrian side of Red Bull have been very keen on moving away from the Toto/Vasseur-style unquestioned boss to a more corporate structure where individual directors answer to Mintzlaff's team rather than the team principal.
It was because of Mateschitz that Horner lasted this long. And I wouldn't say Vasseur is the unquestioned boss, the workings of Ferrari are murky at best. Hamilton went to John Elkann personally to sign, and Vasseur was his old team principal in GP2 which must have helped. Ferrari are notoriously political as a team.
So, all things considered, I think this is about him losing the power struggle, not about anything else.
The role of Dr Helmut Marko is not to be overlooked. Marko taking the Verstappen's side would certainly tip the scales against Horner. Laurent Mekies will mostly be a yes man who can manage the team and stay out of everything else, a man who won't demand more.

Then Jos Verstappen crap stirring and smearing was icing on the cake after the text messages leaked 'the team in in danger of falling apart' and when asked if he had confidence in Horner 'I can't say so at all'. He kept dirtying Horner in media interviews because he likes having some power only on count of being a four time world champion's father. The guy is an utter loser (his history on and off the track attests to that).
 
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Tetragon213

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Horner's sacking was rather undignified for a man who led the team to such successes in Verstappen and previously Vettel's era. I find him to be insufferable, but he still deserved a more dignified end to his career than this.

Rather on brand for Red Bull's management to be this much of a mess...
 

Cloud Strife

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It was because of Mateschitz that Horner lasted this long.

Oh absolutely. Horner would never have lasted that long without Mateschitz's personal backing, and I dare say that there were plenty of people out for his blood as soon as Mateschitz was no longer on the scene. I don't even blame Mark Mateschitz for wanting Horner gone, because it simply made very little sense to have Red Bull Racing operate autonomously from the rest of the sporting empire.



The guy is an utter loser (his history on and off the track attests to that).

Couldn't agree more. You have to wonder how much harm Jos has done to Red Bull as a team, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was at least part of the reason why so many people left Red Bull in recent years.

As for Dr Marko, he's such an odd character that I don't even know what to think of him. He's clearly an absolute menace for the team, but at the same time, I think he deserves a lot of credit for providing drivers with a clear and open pathway to the top team as long as they perform. If someone turns up who is better than Max, they'll get the #1 seat, and I don't think you could say the same about most other teams.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Oh absolutely. Horner would never have lasted that long without Mateschitz's personal backing, and I dare say that there were plenty of people out for his blood as soon as Mateschitz was no longer on the scene. I don't even blame Mark Mateschitz for wanting Horner gone, because it simply made very little sense to have Red Bull Racing operate autonomously from the rest of the sporting empire.





Couldn't agree more. You have to wonder how much harm Jos has done to Red Bull as a team, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was at least part of the reason why so many people left Red Bull in recent years.

As for Dr Marko, he's such an odd character that I don't even know what to think of him. He's clearly an absolute menace for the team, but at the same time, I think he deserves a lot of credit for providing drivers with a clear and open pathway to the top team as long as they perform. If someone turns up who is better than Max, they'll get the #1 seat, and I don't think you could say the same about most other teams.
Ive always liked the politics of F1 as much as the racing and am disappointed we've not a race this weekend to get the immediate commentary from the pundits on whats happened. Anyhow the sport continues to throw up unexpected outcomes on and off the track..
 

JD2168

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Max Verstappen won the sprint at the Belgian Grand Prix ahead of Oscar Piastri & Lando Norris.

After a long rain delay Oscar Piastri has won the Belgian Grand Prix ahead of Lando Norris with Charles Leclerc in third & Max Verstappen fourth. The delay & subsequent laps behind the safety car there was 11 laps on intermediate’s before cars pitted for slicks. Piastri after overtaking Norris on the run up to Les Combs pitted first. Norris pitted a lap later for the hard tyre but had a slow stop then tried to catch Piastri but 2 lock ups into the first turn & a run wide at Puhon corner denied him the opportunity to overtake.

Lewis Hamilton after a poor weekend where he scored no points in the sprint then was knocked out in Q1 in qualifying after a track limits offence was an early slick pitter & rose to finish seventh at the end behind Alex Albon. This earned him the driver of the day award.

The next race which is the last before the summer break is the Hungarian Grand Prix at the Hungaroring next weekend.
 

Cloud Strife

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Norris pitted a lap later for the hard tyre but had a slow stop then tried to catch Piastri but 2 lock ups into the first turn & a run wide at Puhon corner denied him the opportunity to overtake.

Yeah, I think that messed up pit stop combined with a visibly nervy drive was enough to cost him the race. Piastri was just better today, nothing more to it than that.

This earned him the driver of the day award.

It was a great drive by Lewis, and he was unlucky not to get to 6th in the end.
 

Efini92

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Was there really a need for the delayed start? A few laps behind the safety car at the start would’ve removed all that water from the track.
We could’ve had a decent race with the weather element thrown in. Instead we had a dull race.
 

Cloud Strife

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Was there really a need for the delayed start? A few laps behind the safety car at the start would’ve removed all that water from the track.

It's a double edged sword really. I'd rather that they simply go racing, but I think the FIA is being very cautious with Spa after previous incidents. IMO, the biggest failure of the 2022 cars has been the inability to race in wet conditions, although I'm of the opinion that if drivers can't see because of the spray, then they need to simply back off. If anything, it feels a bit like we've gone too far with safety, although obviously I don't want to see anyone get hurt or killed.
 

bspahh

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I'm of the opinion that if drivers can't see because of the spray, then they need to simply back off.
The problem with backing off when the view is bad, is that you then get rear-ended by someone driving to the level of grip, rather than the visibility.
 

sannox

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I think that's fair. A wet/dry race at Spa should be exciting and that was anything but.

Nobody wants anyone hurt but feels like a little bit too much caution in race directors these days. If the spray is awful, then we need to change the cars.
 

Cloud Strife

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The problem with backing off when the view is bad, is that you then get rear-ended by someone driving to the level of grip, rather than the visibility.

Agreed, but I think this is where a unified race control is needed. It shouldn't be rocket science to tell the drivers that any example of rear-ending a car will be punished more severely than during a dry race due to the conditions. The wet tyres are throwing up a lot of spray? Then make it clear to the drivers that they can and will be banned from the next race if they cause an accident by driving too close, and force them to use wetter lines in order to remove water from the track so they can overtake.

I get that the wet tyres make it nearly impossible to follow behind another car, but this shouldn't be a reason to delay races or to go behind the safety car.
 

bspahh

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This sounds like time for a Villeneuve story, from Nigel Roebuck's
wonderful 'Grand Prix Greats'.

A friend of mine in America sent me a cassette a while ago. On it is
the sound of a lone racing car, unmistakably a Ferrari flat-12, and its
clearly audible all the way round the lap. There is a lot of wheelspin
- you can hear the revs abruptly scream out of every turn - and then
the volume builds until the car swishes by in a welter of spray.

He taped it during the first afternoon of practice at Watkins Glen in
1979, when conditions were as bad as I have ever seen at a race circuit.
In places the track was flooded, and only eight drivers ventured out.
One of those was Schekter, who was fastest behind team mate Villeneuve.
Eleven seconds behind ...

The tape is of course Gilles, and it revived memories of a day when we
forgot the wintry rain until he came in, the Ferrari breathless and
steaming. In the pits the other drivers, aghast, had giggled nervously
every time he skittered by at 160 mph. He's different from the rest of
us", Jacques Laffite said. "on a different level..."

"I scared myself rigid that day", Jody remembered. "I thought I had to be
quickest. Then I saw Gilles's time and - I still don't really understand
how it was possible. Eleven seconds !"

"Motor racing was a romantic thing for him, you see." Schekter went on.
"We were close friends, doing the same job for the same team, but we
had completely opposite attitudes to it. My preoccupation was keeping
myself alive, but Gilles had to be the fastest on every lap - even in
testing. He was the fastest racing driver the world has ever seen. If
he could come back and live his life again, I think he would do exactly
the same - and with the same love."


Mike Greasley, an ex co-driver wrote this about the last night of the 1984 San Remo rally
in the 1984/5 edition of Rallycourse. This was at the height of the
Group B era. Ari Vatanen's Peugeot 205 T16 E2 made a little over 400
bhp. Walter Rohrl's Audi Quattro Sport had a bit more.

"By any standards it was a foul evening. The rain had started
at tea time. It was not a gentle drizzle, but an unrelenting
torrential downpour. San Remo was awash. There wasn't a soul on
the streets. Darkness had come prematurely that Thursday. The
gutters were raging torrents. Such was the ferocity of the
downpour that the rain bubbled back up from under the manhole
covers. If it was so bad at sea level what could it be like in
the mountains above the seaside resort?

It was a question which Ari Vatanen and Walter Rohrl had
asked themselves. Instead of relaxing, they had gone into the
hills. Despite weeks of practicing, the pace notes would have to
be checked one more time. Terry Harryman and Christian Geistdorfer
laboriously reading them back. It was a wise precaution. The
twisting, narrow tarmac roads which made up the final eight stages
of the San Remo rally were awash, not only with rain but mud.

There was no let up. It was still raining as hard by the
re-start a few hours before midnight. Now there was a thick
swirling fog and, to add to the misery, a ferocious wind
succeeding in uprooting trees. It was a night on which the
imagination could run wild, the mountain hamlet of San Romolo
taking on a macabre eerie appearance as yellow arc lights from
service vans cut a swathe through the clawing mist ...

... San Romolo was crucial. It came at the end of the longest
stage of the event; nearly 29 miles of asphalt which are difficult
enough on a clear, sunny day, let alone such a tempestuous night ...

... As midnight approached the wind dropped, the cloud vanished
and the open tap in the heavens was at last shut. A few minutes
into the new day and the Peugeot (of Vatanen and Harryman) eased
its way through the San Romolo crowd and into the chained-off PTS
service area. In the harsh lights, Vatanen and Harryman sat for
a minute inside the car, with the engine switched off. The strain
showed on Ari's young face. The uncompromising lights picked out
his wet hair, and emphasised the glittering streams of sweat
which ran down his cheeks ...

... Harryman sat quietly, shaking his head slowly from side to
side. When Ari made for the small PTS camper van and the comforting
attentions of his wife Rita, Terry wandered around the car.

Lighting yet another cigarette, and finally agreeing to take
some secret potions from the team doctor, Terry was sufficiently
relaxed to talk about the experience. He said: "Nothing can
explain just how bad it is. You can't know unless you've been
through it."

The first 12 miles had been hidden in thick fog, and although it
cleared, only to come back again, the conditions were at best
treacherous. It hadn't been raining, but the roads were still
criss-crossed with torrents of water which had brought down all
sorts of mud and debris from the mountain sides. The cars
seemed to be out of control more often than not, both Vatanen
and Rohrl reporting huge aquaplaning slides which went on for
an eternity.

One moment out of many stuck in Harryman's mind. At the end of a
twisty section, the Peugeot went wild. Despite four wheel drive,
there was no grip whatsoever, Ari unable to do anything as they
slid for most of the distance, the perspiring Finn just able to
regain control as the left-hand bend approached. There, at
least, was some armco, but for most of this alarming moment
there had been nothing to stop them flying off the mountain into
oblivion. Walter reported an equally alarming moment at the same
point, his Quattro Sport completely sideways for 80 metres.

"I'll tell you how bad it was," said Terry, who by now didn't
need to explain any further. "During that stage Ari reached over
three times and gently squeezed my knee. He hasn't done that for
a long while - it's his way of saying it won't be long before
it's over."
 

Efini92

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It's a double edged sword really. I'd rather that they simply go racing, but I think the FIA is being very cautious with Spa after previous incidents. IMO, the biggest failure of the 2022 cars has been the inability to race in wet conditions, although I'm of the opinion that if drivers can't see because of the spray, then they need to simply back off. If anything, it feels a bit like we've gone too far with safety, although obviously I don't want to see anyone get hurt or killed.
It’s is but it’s becoming too sterile.
I thought it was comical that Norris was saying the spray was too much, when all he had in front of him was the safety car. He knew Verstappen was set up with heavier downforce for the wet conditions that had been forecast.
 

Tetchytyke

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IMO, the biggest failure of the 2022 cars has been the inability to race in wet conditions, although I'm of the opinion that if drivers can't see because of the spray, then they need to simply back off.
The spray is a known issue with ground effect cars. Ground effect sucks the water off the track and sprays it out of the back in a very fine but thick spray. It's almost identical to driving in fog. The ground effect cars in the late 70s/early 80s were just as bad for it; it's what did for Didier Pironi's career (and it's a miracle that crash didn't kill him).

There isn't really much you can do about the visibility. It's all well and good saying drivers should slow down to the conditions but it's a race, the whole point of the race being to drive as quickly as possible. If you wave a green flag then you're essentially telling the drivers to drive as quickly as they dare. They will push it, hoping that the track in front of them is empty, but not necessarily being able to see clearly that it is indeed empty.

Whilst I agree to an extent that the throttle pedal works both ways, it's also a problem if some drivers slow down more than others. We saw that at Silverstone a fortnight ago when Hadjar ploughed at full chat into the back of Antonelli, who'd backed off going into Copse corner. Luckily both cars largely stayed on the ground and everyone walked away from it, but if one had got airborne it could have been a very nasty accident indeed.

In the last few years we've had two deaths at Spa from unsighted drivers ploughing at high speed into wreckage in poor visibility. Dilano van 't Hoff's death in 2023 was particularly horrific.
 
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Cloud Strife

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There isn't really much you can do about the visibility. It's all well and good saying drivers should slow down to the conditions but it's a race, the whole point of the race being to drive as quickly as possible. If you wave a green flag then you're essentially telling the drivers to drive as quickly as they dare. They will push it, hoping that the track in front of them is empty, but not necessarily being able to see clearly that it is indeed empty.

Yes, this is why I think we need a single race control with the same stewards at every race. It shouldn't be difficult for them to issue a warning to the drivers that the conditions are difficult and that anyone running into the back of another driver will face a one race driving ban, unless they're proven not to be at fault. In short: you can race, but you have to take full responsibility for your driving, and that means you can't take the same line as the car in front unless you want to risk driving into them.

In the last few years we've had two deaths at Spa from unsighted drivers ploughing at high speed into wreckage in poor visibility. Dilano van 't Hoff's death in 2023 was particularly horrific.

This is why I suspect they went with caution and a dull race rather than just letting them go for it. I'm a huge advocate of letting F1 drivers race in all conditions, but I think F1 needs to have some system that automatically cuts the throttle to cars if there's an accident in their vicinity, just to force them to slow down. I went back and watched van 't Hoff's crash, and this is exactly why a system should be in place, as it would instantly slow the cars down without requiring any driver input. If all the cars are immediately slowed down at the same time, then a crash at 60-80km/h is not going to cause serious injury. It shouldn't be rocket science for sensors in the cars to detect that someone has lost control (in his case, spun) and to instantly apply the brakes.

F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of technology, so it really shouldn't be too difficult to automatically slam on the brakes for all cars after an incident is detected. Yes, it might be a bit annoying if someone is thrown from flat out to 80km/h under emergency braking, but it would allow drivers to go out and race and to find a way to deal with the visibility problems

The pictures from Spa show quite clearly that visibility was only poor behind the drivers, but Spa is more than wide enough for racers to use different lines so they can see better. It then becomes a matter of driver skill: do you take a different racing line so you can overtake, or do you simply stay on the racing line and hold back?
 

SynthD

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Next year the underside of the car will pull up less water, and we may see wet tyre racing. For what we have now, this race was as expected. I wish they would experiment in a wet free practice with running behind the safety car to clear standing water.
It shouldn't be difficult for them to issue a warning to the drivers that the conditions are difficult and that anyone running into the back of another driver will face a one race driving ban
That will never happen. The drivers are supposed to find it impossible to run into the back of another car, because the race is run with care.
The pictures from Spa show quite clearly that visibility was only poor behind the drivers, but Spa is more than wide enough for racers to use different lines so they can see better.
In that case, the front three drivers might have an easier time, but they wouldn’t be drying out a single racing line. I doubt they’d be able to run fast enough by sticking to one third of the track.
 

66701GBRF

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It shouldn't be rocket science for sensors in the cars to detect that someone has lost control (in his case, spun) and to instantly apply the brakes.

F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of technology, so it really shouldn't be too difficult to automatically slam on the brakes for all cars after an incident is detected. Yes, it might be a bit annoying if someone is thrown from flat out to 80km/h under emergency braking, but it would allow drivers to go out and race and to find a way to deal with the visibility problems
Not very clever to have brakes slam on mid corner!
 

Efini92

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The spray is a known issue with ground effect cars. Ground effect sucks the water off the track and sprays it out of the back in a very fine but thick spray. It's almost identical to driving in fog. The ground effect cars in the late 70s/early 80s were just as bad for it; it's what did for Didier Pironi's career (and it's a miracle that crash didn't kill him).

There isn't really much you can do about the visibility. It's all well and good saying drivers should slow down to the conditions but it's a race, the whole point of the race being to drive as quickly as possible. If you wave a green flag then you're essentially telling the drivers to drive as quickly as they dare. They will push it, hoping that the track in front of them is empty, but not necessarily being able to see clearly that it is indeed empty.

Whilst I agree to an extent that the throttle pedal works both ways, it's also a problem if some drivers slow down more than others. We saw that at Silverstone a fortnight ago when Hadjar ploughed at full chat into the back of Antonelli, who'd backed off going into Copse corner. Luckily both cars largely stayed on the ground and everyone walked away from it, but if one had got airborne it could have been a very nasty accident indeed.

In the last few years we've had two deaths at Spa from unsighted drivers ploughing at high speed into wreckage in poor visibility. Dilano van 't Hoff's death in 2023 was particularly horrific.
I don’t think the spray is any worse than before ground effects.
We’ve seen races in much worse conditions.
Hubert’s death was in the dry on a sunny day. The problem is Raidillon is unsighted and crashes tend to bounce back onto the track because of the short run off.
 

Tetchytyke

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It shouldn't be difficult for them to issue a warning to the drivers that the conditions are difficult and that anyone running into the back of another driver will face a one race driving ban, unless they're proven not to be at fault
Are you at fault if you drive into a piece of track you think is clear, you’ve convinced yourself is clear, and it turns out it isn’t? If you look at the onboard from Hadjar at Silverstone you couldn’t see Antonelli until the last second, so when Antonelli slowed down more than Hadjar was expecting then the crash was inevitable.

I don’t think the spray is any worse than before ground effects.
We’ve seen races in much worse conditions.
Spray has always been an issue because even the inters clear huge amounts of water and that gets thrown into the air. Spa, and Hockenheim back in the day, are worse because of all the trees. But whilst the spray used to be larger droplets, with ground effect cars it is more of a fine but thick mist. It is harder to see through, more like driving through fog apparently.

We did used to see races in worse conditions, but we also used to see some very nasty accidents in those conditions. Alonso and Schumacher at Interlagos in 2003, for instance, were both very lucky to walk away from their big crashes.

It’s a shame that we simply won’t see brilliant wet weather driving, such as Damon Hill at Suzuka in 94, anymore. But even then races were stopped due to the rain becoming too dangerous.
 

JD2168

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It also doesn’t help that the Pirelli full wet tyre is practically useless as it is so slow. All the drivers never want to use it & want to get on the intermediates as quickly as possible even if the track isn’t ready for those tyres.

When they started after the rain delay I did think that racing could have started at least the lap before but Norris was moaning about his side of the grid being too wet for a standing start which is why we had the rolling version instead & waited another lap.
 

Tetchytyke

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It also doesn’t help that the Pirelli full wet tyre is practically useless as it is so slow. All the drivers never want to use it & want to get on the intermediates as quickly as possible
It’s not the speed of the tyre, it’s that the inter has a much wider operating window. The full wet is so soft that it is useless on any sort of drying track, the rubber will just wear through.

Personally I’d just get rid of the full wets. In reality there is never going to be racing if the rain is so heavy that the inters can’t cope. I don’t see the point in Pirelli carting them around the world, never to be used
 

DarloRich

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Norris is not going to win the championship imo - Sadly, I don't think he has what it takes. He is making to many errors and is failing to capitalise on opportunities. Pole on Sunday in a wet race not converted into victory. He just isn't building the kind of momentum you need to carry you to the title
 
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JD2168

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Lando Norris has won a rather interesting Hungarian Grand Prix from Oscar Piastri with George Russell in third.

Charles Leclerc led for the first 2 phases of the race but his pace fell away in the final stint to finish fourth.

Initially Norris was fourth after a start where he followed Piastri to turn one but lost out to both Russell & Fernando Alonso. He later passed Alonso very quickly. For the first stint Leclerc was pulling away & Norris was unable to pass Russell. Norris then extended this & converted to a one stop whilst the others remained on a two stop. At the end Piastri caught Norris up & very nearly overtook Norris. Russell in the last stint overtook the fading Leclerc.

Alonso finished fifth in a strong weekend for Aston Martin ahead of Bortoletto, Stroll, Lawson, Max Verstappen & Kimi Antonelli.

The Red Bull pace throughout the weekend was poor & ninth is where Max finished after starting eighth on a two stop whilst others around him ran a one stop.

Lewis Hamilton who had a miserable weekend in which he said he was useless & that the team should change driver after a poor qualifying could only recover to twelfth from 15th on the grid.

Only one retired which was Ollie Bearman.

The season now has it’s usual summer break before returning for the Dutch Grand Prix at Zandvoort at the end of August.
 

Peter Mugridge

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When do we hear the result of the post-race inquiry into Verstappen's apparently forcing Hamilton off the track?

The subtitles weren't picking everything up and I got the impression from what I was able to read that they said the result wouldn't be announced until after the summer break?!? That long - really?!
 

JamesT

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When do we hear the result of the post-race inquiry into Verstappen's apparently forcing Hamilton off the track?

The subtitles weren't picking everything up and I got the impression from what I was able to read that they said the result wouldn't be announced until after the summer break?!? That long - really?!
No, it was they decided not to take action during the race but talk to the drivers after the race. Following that, they decided no offence was caused - https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...on-lewis-hamilton-was-difficult-to-understand
"Taking all this into account, the Stewards determine that there was no contact and that the incident does not qualify as forcing another car off track despite the ambitious nature of the overtaking attempt and take no further action."
 

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