Forgetting to carry a Railcard - how do you think passengers should be treated?

[Darandio]

Perhaps a system of "temporary" (i.e. valid for one day) railcards, issuable by guards could work in situations like the OP's?

How does that work then?

Passenger buys a railcard discounted ticket, we have no way of knowing they actually have a railcard. Passenger boards train, ticket gets checked and tells guard they have forgotten it so guard issues a 1-day railcard and passenger gets cheaper travel.

Then what happens? Specifically if they didn't have a railcard in the first place?

 

[87 027]

When Pay at Pump card machines are able to read loyalty cards, then surely a bit of programming can make TVMs read an electronic railcard before tickets are printed/purchased?

That still leaves TP websites, which can be modified to accept the RC serial number before purchase.

How would that work for buying advance tickets where railcard not yet purchased/ renewed before travel date?

 

[Geronimo]

How does that work then?

Passenger buys a railcard discounted ticket, we have no way of knowing they actually have a railcard. Passenger boards train, ticket gets checked and tells guard they have forgotten it so guard issues a 1-day railcard and passenger gets cheaper travel.

Then what happens? Specifically if they didn't have a railcard in the first place?

1/ Passenger buy railcard discounted ticket
2/ Passenger is checked, says she has forgotten railcard
3/ Guard checks eligibility of passengers for claimed railcard if at all possible (presence of a child 5-15 for F&F, two travellers for TT, some proof of age for 16-25 or Senior, some proof for disabled)
4/ If eligibility is blatantly wrong (only one traveller for F&F or TT, wrong age), then do whatever guards do in case of fare evasion
5/ If Eligibility is in doubt (no proof of age or disability), then issues a full fare (as now)
6/ If eligibility is in no doubt, and cost of RailCard is less than cost of full fares, then issues a 1day "railcard" at 30£ (or 20£)
7/ If eligibility is in no doubt, and cost of RailCard is more than cost of full fares, then issues full fares.

Doesn't seem very difficult to implement. Can't see obvious ways to abuse it grossly (perhaps with TT, where single passengers use mobile technology to "pair" with strangers, hmmm) . Passengers who genuinely forget their railcard have a small additional layer of protection, but that comes at a _commensurate_ cost (none of that 250£ for forgetting a 30£ card)

I am probably missing something obvious.

 

[b0b]

How would you enter the name when purchasing a single or return at a TVM?

Or have the TVM require a read of the mag strip on the railcard, and it can spit out a ticket with the railcard number on it. Also allows the TVM to do expiry checking etc.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I am probably missing something obvious.

.

If the Railcard is checked at point of sale, subsequent checks should be not be necessary, other than establishing that the traveller is the same person as the purchaser or that the purchaser had the authority to buy the discounted tickets.

 

[gnolife]

.

If the Railcard is checked at point of sale, subsequent checks should be not be necessary, other than establishing that the traveller is the same person as the purchaser or that the purchaser had the authority to buy the discounted tickets.

So, to rephrase what you've just put there, after being checked at the point of sale, subsequent checks are necessary. I think you may have shot your argument in the foot there.

 

[cf111]

...and for those railcards that don't have a photo, how does that prevent it being used by someone else at the same time?

A rolling programme where when your photoless railcard expires it is reissued with a photograph.

 

[Clip]

This is getting silly now. Its simple as has been explained many times.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

So, to rephrase what you've just put there, after being checked at the point of sale, subsequent checks are necessary. I think you may have shot your argument in the foot there.

You may have to satisfy a ticket Inspector that you are the person named on the ticket. You can do this by having the Railcard in your possession or otherwise. It's the "or otherwise" point that seems to be so difficult for posters here to understand. The expectation would be that there would be a challenge only where potential fraud was suspected. Senior Railcards don't have photos. What happens under current rules if it's suspected that the person in possession of the Railcard and discounted ticket is not the person named on the Railcard?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The issue, which is also the issue with "online only" debit cards, is the lack of internet connectivity for guards. With internet connectivity it'd take seconds to check someone has the railcard they say they do, my gym can find me on their database within 20 seconds when I forget my gym card. People who have legitimately forgotten their railcard will show on the database, people who haven't won't- and they can be appropriately punished for deliberately lying to an RPI or guard.

I don't think we need to start going down routes of printing names on tickets, or issuing swipecards that you need before you can buy a ticket.

Give guards the tools to corroborate what passengers are saying and everyone's a winner. The genuine don't get stung for £250, the liars and the cheats get found out.

 

[tony6499]

I can't see why all this is so complicated, if you buy a ticket with a railcard discount then you carry the railcard on your person, if you have forgotten it, lost it , dog has eaten it, whatever then that is tough luck and you pay up.

The system isn't going to change and with more online ticketing done the penalties for not carrying your railcard will be carried out more diligently.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The system isn't going to change and with more online ticketing done the penalties for not carrying your railcard will be carried out more diligently.

If, as is already happening, it becomes common practice for organisations to validate eligibility for discounts or loyalty cards online, the railways will be seen to be adopting a customer hostile attitude in demanding the physical presence of an additional piece of plastic.

 

[Class377]

I can't see why all this is so complicated, if you buy a ticket with a railcard discount then you carry the railcard on your person, if you have forgotten it, lost it , dog has eaten it, whatever then that is tough luck and you pay up.

The system isn't going to change and with more online ticketing done the penalties for not carrying your railcard will be carried out more diligently.

Exactly.

I've said numerous times in this thread that a railcard, if issued online (like the vast majority are), is EXACTLY the same size as a credit card. People fill their wallets with all kinds of other loyalty cards and rubbish, so there's definitely room to put a railcard in there. Once it's there, you're never going to forget it and it's not an issue.

I'm quite a forgetful person, but in 4 years of owning a railcard, I've only ever forgotten it once. On that one occasion, I realised I made a mistake, and at the TVM bought a full fare ticket rather than a discounted one. That mistake cost me 3 or 4 quid - so by taking the initiative I prevented myself from being issued with a much more expensive penalty fare or out of court settlement.

If these new ideas were put in place, what would even be the point of me shelling out £30 for a railcard and diligently bringing it with me every time?

The railcard offers a good deal and one of the T&Cs is that you bring it with you. If somebody "lost" their actual train ticket (such as peope often do with advances), the TOC doesn't let them travel for free with a receipt or other such proof that they did have an eligible ticket, so why do it with railcards?

 

[bb21]

This is getting silly now. Its simple as has been explained many times.

Agreed.

This is just going around in circles and I simply cannot see any point in this carrying on any longer.

Unless anyone has anything significant to add which has not yet been mentioned, in which case please let me know, this thread is closed.