Forgetting to carry a Railcard - how do you think passengers should be treated?

[Hellfire]

If you are selling tickets, you are given access to a database containing Railcard details. Any number of validation methods are then possible.

If you want validation during a journey, the method used to validate ticket collection is possible, namely possession of the credit or debit card used to purchase the tickets, or more simply just any credit or debit card in the name of the ticket holder.

And how is this going to work? While e tickets may have the passengers details and details of a credit card, most ordinary cardboard tickets obtained from TVMs don't.

So, I buy all my friends train tickets via Trainline. Because, as you suggest, Trainline has access to the Railcard database, all those tickets will pop out of the TVM showing they are supported by a Railcard that the person with the ticket does not have to carry under your system.

You don't need your own credit card to validate collection from TVMs if the ticket is pre-paid so no checks there either.

I can see no alternative to making passengers abide by the T&Cs and carrying their railcard. While I have some sympathy with those on this forum who are suggesting that only the difference between the discounted and full fare should be charged, what's to stop people buying discounted tickets online and taking a chance. Some of them will get away with it which can't be acceptable.

 

[talldave]

Of course, if railcards were abolished, and all fares knocked down by a percentage that would make it revenue-neutral for the TOC's, that would solve the problems...

..and remove the age discrimination aspects of some of the existing railcards...

 

[Flamingo]

Double-tap

 

[Flamingo]

..and remove the age discrimination aspects of some of the existing railcards...

Not to mention favouritism shown to people who live in a certain part of the country, or have a partner/significant other, or have (or can borrow) children, or have a disability, or are members of the armed forces, or unemployed...

 

[Clip]

Im all for abolishing railcards and reducing the price ut the problem is is that people wont travel more theyll just complain that they cant get a 'discount' anymore.

 

[b0b]

... which is not a requirement at the moment, only at point of use. Are you going to make it more difficult for passengers?

Very few people would be affected by the requirement to have a railcard at the time of purchase. I can't see why TVMs cant be programmed to request a "read" of a railcard before issuing the ticket.

As for the third party websites, have the person enter the railcard number, seems easy enough.

 

[b0b]

... which is not a requirement at the moment, only at point of use. Are you going to make it more difficult for passengers?

Very few people would be affected by the requirement to have a railcard at the time of purchase. I can't see why TVMs cant be programmed to request a "read" of a railcard before issuing the ticket and print the railcard number on the ticket.

As for the third party websites, have the person enter the railcard number, seems easy enough.

sometimes I think the rail companies try to make it difficult to distinguish legitimate customers that make mistakes or are caught out by circumstance, vs intentional fraud.

 

[mattdickinson]

Apologies is this is going way off topic, but does anyone know if the ITSO spec for smartcard tickets supports the "loading" of any kind of a railcard entitlement? It would seem logical to be able to combine all the pieces of paper onto the smartcard? And would eradicate the "forgotten/lost railcard" problem in the smartcard age.

RSPS3002 states that IPE TYP14 is to be used to issue railcards.

I've no idea about actual implementation though..

 

[yorkie]

Very few people would be affected by the requirement to have a railcard at the time of purchase. I can't see why TVMs cant be programmed to request a "read" of a railcard before issuing the ticket.

But for all we know the passenger in question was in possession of a Railcard at the time of purchase. They probably had an Advance fare!

As for the third party websites, have the person enter the railcard number, seems easy enough.

No guarantee the number entered will be that of the owner, and they may still forget to bring their Railcard.

 

[Clip]

But for all we know the passenger in question was in possession of a Railcard at the time of purchase. They probably had an Advance fare!

No guarantee the number entered will be that of the owner, and they may still forget to bring their Railcard.

Indeed, there could be a nice little business for someone at a station purchasing tickets for people using the railcard and charging them a couple of quid - all day every day.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

No guarantee the number entered will be that of the owner, and they may still forget to bring their Railcard.

The problem is easy enough to solve if you want to solve it.

The premise is that if you buy a discounted ticket with a Railcard, the Railcard has to be in your name and that name will be displayed on the ticket. You don't need to carry the Railcard provided you have a credit or debit card (or other means of identification) in the name of the ticket.

If you wanted an even higher tech solution, make it so that the Railcard had to be pre-loaded with credit and was then the only way that you could buy a discounted ticket.

 

[island]

The problem is easy enough to solve if you want to solve it.

The premise is that if you buy a discounted ticket with a Railcard, the Railcard has to be in your name and that name will be displayed on the ticket. You don't need to carry the Railcard provided you have a credit or debit card (or other means of identification) in the name of the ticket.

If you wanted an even higher tech solution, make it so that the Railcard had to be pre-loaded with credit and was then the only way that you could buy a discounted ticket.

Current ticket vending machines and ticket office machines do not have the facility to print names on single or return tickets.

As an alternative, people who can't, don't, or won't carry a Railcard with them could buy full-fare tickets.

 

[najaB]

If you wanted an even higher tech solution, make it so that the Railcard had to be pre-loaded with credit and was then the only way that you could buy a discounted ticket.

Not everyone can afford to have money tied up in this way. Also, how would this work for people whose travel is paid for by their employer? This would effectively require the employer to give the employee a loan, with the tax implications thereof.

 

[Clip]

The problem is easy enough to solve if you want to solve it.

The premise is that if you buy a discounted ticket with a Railcard, the Railcard has to be in your name and that name will be displayed on the ticket. You don't need to carry the Railcard provided you have a credit or debit card (or other means of identification) in the name of the ticket.

If you wanted an even higher tech solution, make it so that the Railcard had to be pre-loaded with credit and was then the only way that you could buy a discounted ticket.

You'r ejust creating more hassle and more cost.

The easiest and best way is simply for the passenger to have their railcard with them when they travel on a RC discounted ticket.

Its not hard to get a grasp of is it?

 

[Darandio]

The problem is easy enough to solve if you want to solve it.

Yes, let's create more problems by trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Clip sums it up perfectly.

 

[Daz28]

If you are selling tickets, you are given access to a database containing Railcard details. Any number of validation methods are then possible.
.

It is my understanding that ATOC are indeed working on the feasibility of such a proposal.

 

[b0b]

But for all we know the passenger in question was in possession of a Railcard at the time of purchase. They probably had an Advance fare!

You would expect the railcard to have the expiry encoded, so either the current railcard would be validated for the proposed travel, or the person reminded to buy a new railcard (and the ticket printed "railcard expiry advised" to make sure they couldnt claim they didnt see such a message). not a perfect system I know.

No guarantee the number entered will be that of the owner, and they may still forget to bring their Railcard.

But that makes it easier to sort out - owner given opportunity to present matching railcard in X days - or you've collected a nice set of information that could be evidence of fraud.

I guess "railcard fraud" isnt as pervasive as we believe or ATOC would have already tightened up restrictions though.

 

[bb21]

The premise is that if you buy a discounted ticket with a Railcard, the Railcard has to be in your name and that name will be displayed on the ticket. You don't need to carry the Railcard provided you have a credit or debit card (or other means of identification) in the name of the ticket.

Are you trying to make the queues at ticket offices longer?

Please, think carefully about the implications of what you are suggesting.

Is it really so difficult to carry your Railcard with you when travelling? Why are we spending lots of money modifying a system to accommodate a non-issue that affects very few people? The overwhelming majority of people seem capable of carrying proof of their discount entitlement with them.

 

[b0b]

Are you trying to make the queues at ticket offices longer?

Please, think carefully about the implications of what you are suggesting.

maybe things have changed but I dont think I was ever able to buy railcard discounted tickets at a booking office without actually showing the railcard?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Please, think carefully about the implications of what you are suggesting.

I have. It's simple enough if you always buy tickets in advance on-line. You quote the Railcard number when you buy the ticket and the Railcard never leaves your house. The ticket gives a traveller's name and entitlement to a discount. In the event of a ticket inspection and the ticket inspector isn't prepared to trust the traveller, you produce ID in the form of a credit or debit card or otherwise to show that you are the traveller named on the ticket.

If there are circumstances where this wouldn't work, you have to default back to carrying the Railcard.

 

[Darandio]

you produce ID in the form of a credit or debit card or otherwise to show that you are the traveller named on the ticket.

What if you have forgotten them?

 

[bb21]

I have. It's simple enough if you always buy tickets in advance on-line. You quote the Railcard number when you buy the ticket and the Railcard never leaves your house. The ticket gives a traveller's name and entitlement to a discount. In the event of a ticket inspection and the ticket inspector isn't prepared to trust the traveller, you produce ID in the form of a credit or debit card or otherwise to show that you are the traveller named on the ticket.

If there are circumstances where this wouldn't work, you have to default back to carrying the Railcard.

So what advantage does your proposed system offer over the existing system, given that the overwhelming majority of passengers have absolutely no difficulty carrying their Railcard with them?

As I have already mentioned, you are prolonging the ticket purchase process and causing longer queues at ticket offices as the card had to be validated/passenger details entered onto the ticket. There is very little to be gained. You are also adding an extra step to the buying process online unnecessarily.

 

[Flamingo]

What if you have forgotten them?

Then the Revenue Staff can use the barcode reader they will be issued to scan the bar-code that everybody will have tattooed on the back of their neck in case they forget their ID.

This barcode will also be printed on the ticket...

 

[MarlowDonkey]

What if you have forgotten them?

Then you are stuffed if the entitlement to the discount is queried. If the existence of the Travelcard is recorded on the Ticket, that's only going to be a problem if the Inspector doesn't believe you are who you say you are. A youngster on a Senior ticket perhaps or vv. But if you leave home without cards you are in difficulties anyway unless you have enough cash. But for an occasional traveller, it's more likely that they will not pick up a Travelcard, than leave all their credit or debit cards behind.

 

[Darandio]

All we have really established in the last 90 minutes or so is literally nothing then?

The current system isn't complicated, and doesn't need money or resources throwing at it.

 

[Deerfold]

Then you are stuffed if the entitlement to the discount is queried. If the existence of the Travelcard is recorded on the Ticket, that's only going to be a problem if the Inspector doesn't believe you are who you say you are. A youngster on a Senior ticket perhaps or vv. But if you leave home without cards you are in difficulties anyway unless you have enough cash. But for an occasional traveller, it's more likely that they will not pick up a Travelcard, than leave all their credit or debit cards behind.

Most people I've observed do what I used to do when I had a railcard and keep the card in the same wallet as the tickets.

I'm assuming you mean railcard rather than Travelcard?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The current system isn't complicated, and doesn't need money or resources throwing at it.

It isn't complicated, based as it is on technical solutions from the 1970s. What it does do is excessively penalise what to the occasional traveller appear trivial mistakes or unnecessary red tape. In a fares environment that essentially bans unprepared tourists from London buses, all such traveller hostile policies deserve critical scrutiny.

 

[bb21]

It isn't complicated, based as it is on technical solutions from the 1970s. What it does do is excessively penalise what to the occasional traveller appear trivial mistakes or unnecessary red tape

It is not the fault of the technology. EMT's policies demonstrate that you can have a sensible solution to these problems without having to spend millions on upgrading your system.

In a fares environment that essentially bans unprepared tourists from London buses, all such traveller hostile policies deserve critical scrutiny.

... which is neither here nor there in the context of this thread.

 

[ian959]

It isn't complicated... all such traveller hostile policies deserve critical scrutiny.

No it is not complicated to carry your Railcard with you...

And how is such a requirement to undertake such a basic thing a traveler hostile policy?

It is simple, cost effective and hardly constitutes unnecessary red tape. Indeed, it would be great if more bureaucratic requirements were this simple. Your hole seems to be getting deeper...

 

[Class377]

It isn't "red tape" to make someone who forgot their railcard to buy a full fare.

When I paid out £30 for a railcard to get 34% off the vast majority of my fares, I realised I was getting a shockingly good deal. I must save nearly £1000 a year from it.

I also know you don't get anything for nothing, and that I have to keep up my end of the deal to get these discounts. Namely, the simple option of remembering this railcard (surely that's the point of paying £30 for it?). I know if I'm stupid enough to forget my railcard, I have no reason to get any discount and so I either buy the full fare ticket, or buy a new railcard (I always have a passport photo and ID in my wallet, therefore a new railcard would be quite easy) if my ticket would be over £90 (or it was an advance).

Put it this way - if you bought something online and it was to be held in store, but you forgot all your details at the store, would they just give it to you on the basis that you claim you've already paid?