Football

[Cowley]

Most of the game (sorry, I started writing this out ages ago and got sidetracked) was pretty tedious as others have said. But Denmark nearly did a number on one of the most favoured teams in the tournament.
Regardless of the result though I thought both goalkeepers were absolutely immense, and even though Denmark didn’t go through I’m sure Peter Schmeichel must’ve been incredibly proud of his son.

 

[Cletus]

I don't think England will have ever a better chance of winning a tournament than this year.

Even just reaching the final I will be happy with.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Other than there is evidence that the team going first with the current system have a psychological advantage?

Surely a psychological advantage (or disadvantage) is not something the laws of the game should be concerned with. Isn't that the responsibility of the coaches, the captains and the players themselves?

Correlation is not causation. The order of the penalties is decided at the toss of a coin and you can't get fairer than that.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The order of the penalties is decided at the toss of a coin and you can't get fairer than that.

You can. Research shows that 60% of those winning the toss win the shoot-out.

The paper is here: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2737672

 

[BlueFox]

The order of the penalties is decided at the toss of a coin and you can't get fairer than that.

Using the ABBA system as well as the toss of a coin is fairer.

What is it you don't like about ABBA?
Apart from their music, obviously

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Using the ABBA system as well as the toss of a coin is fairer.

What is it you don't like about ABBA?
Apart from their music, obviously

It's confusing for supporters and above all it is completely unnecessary. Statistics may well show that the team taking first is more (or less) successful, but as you can't recreate the exact circumstances of a shootout a second time with only the order reversed, you can't make the case that any "disadvantage" exists anywhere other than in the players' minds.

A coin-toss has a 50/50 chance of any one of two possible outcomes. Therefore it is the fairest way to decide things like who kicks off, or who takes the first penalty.

A penalty kick is striking the dead ball towards goal from 12 yards against a goalkeeper who (should be) on the goal line. Everyone here understands that, it is a simple concept.

If there are psychological factors which affect a kicker's ability to successfully take a penalty, it is up to that player (or their coach/sports psychologist) to deal with that. I repeat, any psychological factor on the part of the players is not the responsibility of the laws of the game.

That pressure is part of the game, and the team which is able to cope with that pressure better will be more successful regardless of the order the teams take their penalties in.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's confusing for supporters and above all it is completely unnecessary. Statistics may well show that the team taking first is more (or less) successful, but as you can't recreate the exact circumstances of a shootout a second time with only the order reversed, you can't make the case that any "disadvantage" exists anywhere other than in the players' minds.

A coin-toss has a 50/50 chance of any one of two possible outcomes. Therefore it is the fairest way to decide things like who kicks off, or who takes the first penalty.

A penalty kick is striking the dead ball towards goal from 12 yards against a goalkeeper who (should be) on the goal line. Everyone here understands that, it is a simple concept.

If there are psychological factors which affect a kicker's ability to successfully take a penalty, it is up to that player (or their coach/sports psychologist) to deal with that. I repeat, any psychological factor on the part of the players is not the responsibility of the laws of the game.

That pressure is part of the game, and the team which is able to cope with that pressure better will be more successful regardless of the order the teams take their penalties in.

Agreed. What next? Taking the penalties in a pop-up goal in the middle of the pitch so one team doesn’t shoot into “their” end? All matches to be played at neutral venues?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If there are psychological factors which affect a kicker's ability to successfully take a penalty, it is up to that player (or their coach/sports psychologist) to deal with that. I repeat, any psychological factor on the part of the players is not the responsibility of the laws of the game.

That pressure is part of the game, and the team which is able to cope with that pressure better will be more successful regardless of the order the teams take their penalties in.

Players with the problems that you state above should never be allowed to take penalties by their team management, as missing a penalty in such a frame of mind will do far more harm than good.

 

[Antman]

Most of the game (sorry, I started writing this out ages ago and got sidetracked) was pretty tedious as others have said. But Denmark nearly did a number on one of the most favoured teams in the tournament.
Regardless of the result though I thought both goalkeepers were absolutely immense, and even though Denmark didn’t go through I’m sure Peter Schmeichel must’ve been incredibly proud of his son.

I didn't like the blatant gamesmanship of Kasper Schmeichel and I'm glad that Croatia won.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul - watching football must be fun with you!

There is nothing wrong in watching a football match between two teams that you have no affiliation with, as a neutral watcher, and just see how the match develops as a form of enjoyment.

 

[DarloRich]

I didn't like the blatant gamesmanship of Kasper Schmeichel and I'm glad that Croatia won.

obviously overlooking the fact that the Croatia keeper was going exactly the same............................

Croatia were poor and failed to impose themselves on the rugged if limited Danish midfield. They got lucky. If only Denmark had shown a bit more adventure they could have won. Sadly only one former Darlo keeper left in the world cup.

Correct. Although I don’t believe the Danish player had any chance of *not* committing a foul. He was behind the player with no prospect of playing the ball fairly in the situation.

Should have been a red. Professional foul.

The laws say that if a genuine attempt is made to win the ball then you are not sent off. I thought it was a very professional foul. Superb. Almost German.

 

[Antman]

obviously overlooking the fact that the Croatia keeper was going exactly the same............................

Croatia were poor and failed to impose themselves on the rugged if limited Danish midfield. They got lucky. If only Denmark had shown a bit more adventure they could have won. Sadly only one former Darlo keeper left in the world cup.



The laws say that if a genuine attempt is made to win the ball then you are not sent off. I thought it was a very professional foul. Superb. Almost German.

I didn't notice the Croatia keeper doing the same, Schmiechel was constantly whinging at the referee throughout the game as well.

Croatia weren't great in fact I thought the game was quite poor and Russia have nothing to fear.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It's confusing for supporters and above all it is completely unnecessary. Statistics may well show that the team taking first is more (or less) successful, but as you can't recreate the exact circumstances of a shootout a second time with only the order reversed, you can't make the case that any "disadvantage" exists anywhere other than in the players' minds.

A coin-toss has a 50/50 chance of any one of two possible outcomes. Therefore it is the fairest way to decide things like who kicks off, or who takes the first penalty.

A penalty kick is striking the dead ball towards goal from 12 yards against a goalkeeper who (should be) on the goal line. Everyone here understands that, it is a simple concept.

If there are psychological factors which affect a kicker's ability to successfully take a penalty, it is up to that player (or their coach/sports psychologist) to deal with that. I repeat, any psychological factor on the part of the players is not the responsibility of the laws of the game.

That pressure is part of the game, and the team which is able to cope with that pressure better will be more successful regardless of the order the teams take their penalties in.

Agreed. What next? Taking the penalties in a pop-up goal in the middle of the pitch so one team doesn’t shoot into “their” end? All matches to be played at neutral venues?

The 50/50 coin toss is fair in deciding who take the first penalty. The team that win that toss then have an advantage in the shoot-out. That is not fair. Did you read the paper I linked to?

By using ABBA the advantage is removed. It's not hard to understand or implement. I don't see the issue.

Wait until England, or your own team, lose a shoot-out going second and see how you feel then knowing that the opposition went into that "fair" decider with an advantage.

 

[DarloRich]

The 50/50 coin toss is fair in deciding who take the first penalty. The team that win that toss then have an advantage in the shoot-out. That is not fair. Did you read the paper I linked to?

By using ABBA the advantage is removed. It's not hard to understand or implement. I don't see the issue.

Wait until England, or your own team, lose a shoot-out going second and see how you feel then knowing that the opposition went into that "fair" decider with an advantage.

it seems pointlessly politically correct like everyone wins sports days. Just get on with it. Pick and end and bang away until someone loses. Next you will be saying it will have to be like Wimbledon with everyone silent when the ball is kicked.

PS being England fans we know we will lose at penalties regardless of the format!

 

[AlterEgo]

The 50/50 coin toss is fair in deciding who take the first penalty. The team that win that toss then have an advantage in the shoot-out. That is not fair. Did you read the paper I linked to?

By using ABBA the advantage is removed. It's not hard to understand or implement. I don't see the issue.

Wait until England, or your own team, lose a shoot-out going second and see how you feel then knowing that the opposition went into that "fair" decider with an advantage.

LOL, no need to “wait” until England lose a shootout by going second. I’m 31.

There’s an advantage to taking the penalties in front of your own fans too. So what?

 

[DarloRich]

LOL, no need to “wait” until England lose a shootout by going second. I’m 31.

There’s an advantage to taking the penalties in front of your own fans too. So what?

I think i have seen 1 (!) penalty shoot out victories for England. 1. The format don't matter. We are rubbish at them!

 

[The_Train]

I think i have seen 1 (!) penalty shoot out victories for England. 1. The format don't matter. We are rubbish at them!

I think penalties against Spain in Euro 96 is the only one I've seen us win

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 50/50 coin toss is fair in deciding who take the first penalty. The team that win that toss then have an advantage in the shoot-out. That is not fair. Did you read the paper I linked to?

By using ABBA the advantage is removed. It's not hard to understand or implement. I don't see the issue.

Wait until England, or your own team, lose a shoot-out going second and see how you feel then knowing that the opposition went into that "fair" decider with an advantage.

My argument is that the apparent statistical advantage of taking first is NOT inherent or decisive. I've seen my team win and lose penalty shoot-outs both taking first and second. The impact of the order of the penalties is negligible compared to other factors- the key factor being how well the players handle the pressure.

Blaming the order or format of kicks after the fact is the sign of a sore loser and a team/coach who failed to prepare adequately.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think penalties against Spain in Euro 96 is the only one I've seen us win

I think it is the only one England have won. Still remember the moment of redemption that Stuart Pearce had in that one- though the Spain side of 1996 were perennial underachievers, not the powerhouse they became later on.

 

[Puffing Devil]

My argument is that the apparent statistical advantage of taking first is NOT inherent or decisive. I've seen my team win and lose penalty shoot-outs both taking first and second. The impact of the order of the penalties is negligible compared to other factors- the key factor being how well the players handle the pressure.

Blaming the order or format of kicks after the fact is the sign of a sore loser and a team/coach who failed to prepare adequately.

The peer-reviewed, published research, disagrees.

Going second does not mean that you will lose, you have a disadvantage.

I want to have as much as a level playing field as is possible. Not too much to ask?

 

[DarloRich]

I think it is the only one England have won. Still remember the moment of redemption that Stuart Pearce had in that one- though the Spain side of 1996 were perennial underachievers, not the powerhouse they became later on.

That is the last time I knew we were going to win a tournament. Even then we didn't. We lost on penalties. I am sure if i watch that video enough Gazza will get his studs on that cross............

The peer-reviewed, published research, disagrees.

Going second does not mean that you will lose, you have a disadvantage.

I want to have as much as a level playing field as is possible. Not too much to ask?

you have had 120 minutes of level playing field! just get on with it.

 

[The_Train]

Should we go down the route of discipline to decide who chooses if they want to go first or second in a penalty shootout, similar to how they have decided some finishing positions in the group stage of this WC? The team with less yellow and red cards in the match gets to choose whether they go 1st or 2nd and also at which end the penalties are taken from should it go the distance

 

[Puffing Devil]

Should we go down the route of discipline to decide who chooses if they want to go first or second in a penalty shootout, similar to how they have decided some finishing positions in the group stage of this WC? The team with less yellow and red cards in the match gets to choose whether they go 1st or 2nd and also at which end the penalties are taken from should it go the distance

I like that!

 

[507021]

Mohamed Salah has signed a new five year deal with Liverpool.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Should we go down the route of discipline to decide who chooses if they want to go first or second in a penalty shootout, similar to how they have decided some finishing positions in the group stage of this WC? The team with less yellow and red cards in the match gets to choose whether they go 1st or 2nd and also at which end the penalties are taken from should it go the distance

That would at least placate those who are trying to reduce football to the equivalent of drawing lots. It also has genuine merit and would actually mean that a team would "earn" the advantage of choosing how the shoot-out variables are decided.

The fact remains that a team that has prepared adequately and handles the pressure of the shoot-out has a greater chance of victory than one which is unprepared and chokes when the pressure is on. If a team has prepared adequately, it shouldn't (and doesn't) matter which order the kicks are taken. All that matters is how well-taken the penalties are executed, how well the goalkeepers do their job, and that little bit of luck.

I don't think myself and @Puffing Devil are going to come to agreement on this matter, and that's fine. However, the fact that ABBA is not being used at the 2018 World Cup would suggest that those in charge of the laws of the game agree with me.
FIFA* as an organisation is not one I'd generally wish to associate myself with, but in terms of rule-changes on the field of play, they are a legitimate authority.

*=not FIFA in fact, but IFAB (link).

 

[AlterEgo]

Anyone watching Neymar being a total diva in the Mexico-Brazil game?

 

[EM2]

Anyone watching Neymar being a total diva in the Mexico-Brazil game?

Diva, or diver?

Btw, have you seen Cantona's latest take on Brazil's no. 10?
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/i-ca...s-brazil-ace-again/17g9noi25a2rh100uklmu45ab3

“This is my new luggage: I called it Neymar,” the Frenchman said, placing a yellow suitcase onto a table. “Because of the colour, but mainly because of this: you barely touch it and it turns round and round for hours.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I always associate the word diva with a woman of outstanding talent in her chosen field. The Italians use the word divo to describe a male personage, mainly in operatic associations such as tenors such as Caruso.

 

[The_Train]

Anyone watching Neymar being a total diva in the Mexico-Brazil game?

His rolling around by the dugouts was embarrassing. Yes the Mexican player put his foot on Neymar's ankle but he didn't seem to put any weight down so the fish just taken from water routine was not necessary at all

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I want to have as much as a level playing field as is possible. Not too much to ask?

In that case, can both teams take penalties against a single neutral goalkeeper in front of a neutral stand then? It would be awfully unfair if, say, Iceland had to take theirs against a big, scary, greatest-of-his-generation candidate like Manuel Neuer with a thousand Germans goading him in the stand behind, whilst in return the Germans had to take theirs against a bloke who is normally a fisherman in front of a sea of people who worship them.

I have always preferred my team going second in shootouts, simply because you know what you have to do. The players are well-paid and should be well-trained enough to attempt to fulfill their duty regardless of whether they do it on the training ground or as the fifth man to keep them in it at Wembley. We have had some shocking defeats over the years in shootouts (Sunderland when Thomas Sorensen saved all three, Bournemouth when they were practically a Sunday league team), and it doesn't bother me. If we were good enough we would win it in the 120 or more minutes that precede it, or hold our own from 12 yards. If we can't do that then we deserve to lose.