Flying Scotsman - where now?

[DarloRich]

If only there was a load of it in the ground somewhere nearby, etc etc…

I doubt that would make it much cheaper - even if we still mined the stuff - due to things like HSE regulation, wages, NI, Insurance, utilities. God knows the cost of actually creating a mine now!

For the SVR, why not run the Flying Scotsman, which will attract a far larger audience than one of their home locos?

it is a no brainer - enthusiasts will hate it but the tickets sold out in minutes so that tells you all you need to know.

My take is that like Thomas the Tank Engine, Flying Scotsman is a gate way drug

correct - plus it brings people in and, maybe, if they have a fun day out they come back........................

 

[SwindonManor]

How many aeroplanes do you hear about in the media? Spitfires? Lancasters? You never hear the Avro Anson or the Short Stirling mentioned.............

Same for ships or boats?

The big issue is that it brings normal into the secret world of the enthusiast and when they do they aren't interested in the correct items!

Also: How much should a trip on FS cost?

Fair point. It depends on the distance - but if day rovers are available they SHOULD be tagged onto an FS ticket. I've done calculations before posting for a fair result but turns out for the 36 mile round trip NYMR has relatively good value. It's tricky. All I'm saying is families probably want to ride it too, so it should have a degree of affordability. Personally I'd make the NYMR tickets slightly cheaper at 50-ish not £54.50.
And do a family discount if not done already of () percent. The costs for hiring it must be considered of course.
What do you reckon is the right pricetag?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

i agree - however you cant get much more accessible than free at the NRM in Shildon

I went with some younger family at xmas and it was great - hardly any queues when we went, light steam so it smelt of smoke and had a fire going, free footplate access, staff on board to chat and educate, you could sit in the drivers seat, you could even go down the corridor tender thing!

I think it will do some gentle chuffing on the short demo line at Shildon this summer

That's good value. A short trip for free. I'd take a 15mph half mile ride for free to be honest. And you get to see the museum.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is near impossible for me to put a price on it, as I have no idea how much it actually costs to run the loco. I perceive FS to be little more special than any other preserved steam locomotive, but most people would disagree with me on that one.

Preferably, the price of a trip on FS should be affordable to a wide audience, while also making enough money to support its maintenance, as well as the railway. If that’s £45, I stand corrected.

It just seems steep considering you can buy a rover ticket to go on multiple engines on a normal running day for less.

If the tickets sold out in minutes, as you stated earlier, then the price is obviously affordable to plenty of people. If they can get £45 for a ticket why should they price them at £10 so more people can afford them when they can sell them at the higher price? I really don't know what you are moaning about, but it looks like you are one of those people who have a bee in their bonnet regarding Flying Scotsman.

 

[Forty29]

Whenever l mention or people find out i'm a railway enthusiast the first question is always have you seen/travelled behind FS?,or do you go to see Thomas the Tank engine? So the people's perception of trains are the popularity of these two engines that's all they know about trains, so when they are in the spotlight they attract attention. When l say l'm not into steam engines the conversation goes dead.

 

[Deepgreen]

For the SVR, why not run the Flying Scotsman, which will attract a far larger audience than one of their home locos?

I still haven’t seen an answer to this question.

Also, remove "the"... It's 'Flying Scotsman', just like 'Mallard', 'Bittern', 'Tornado', etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

Whenever l mention or people find out i'm a railway enthusiast the first question is always have you seen/travelled behind FS?,or do you go to see Thomas the Tank engine? So the people's perception of trains are the popularity of these two engines that's all they know about trains, so when they are in the spotlight they attract attention. When l say l'm not into steam engines the conversation goes dead.

Yep - if I am filming or photographing somewhere, it is unusual for someone not to ask if 'Flying Scotsman' is coming! The look on their faces when I say, for example; "no, it's a Black Five" can be comical.

 

[UP13]

Whenever l mention or people find out i'm a railway enthusiast the first question is always have you seen/travelled behind FS?,or do you go to see Thomas the Tank engine? So the people's perception of trains are the popularity of these two engines that's all they know about trains, so when they are in the spotlight they attract attention. When l say l'm not into steam engines the conversation goes dead.

When I first went out with my wife, I had several years of Flying Scotsman related presents every Christmas from her family...

 

[Flying Phil]

What has not been mentioned is the cost of the "Ten Year" boiler ticket and overhaul of steam engines. Even small engines have to generate about £300,000 every ten years, for large engines, like FS, the cost will now be over £1M so that is about £2000 per week - even if it is standing still.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Regardless of the authenticity of her 100mph run or whether she was the most deserving A3 to be preserved or any other issue people may have, she has done a lot for the preservation movement.

It does have some significance, although most of its exploits happened when it was an "A1" (it was only rebuilt as an A3 in 1947, so neither pre-war LNER livery nor the number 4472 are authentic in its present form). In 1934 it recorded the first official (with dynamometer car) 100mph run

I happened to be in Didcot a couple of months ago, and looked in at the railway centre. There was a special event with Flying Scotsman and GWR 4079 Pendennis Castle reunited to mark the centenary of the 1925 locomotive trials, in which both took part - the two were also exhibited side by side at the 1925 British Empire Exhibition. (The GWR gleefully pointing out that the smaller Castle had outperformed the A1)

 

[DarloRich]

It just seems steep considering you can buy a rover ticket to go on multiple engines on a normal running day for less.

But you miss that most people attracted by this event wont be bothered about buying a rover ticket to go on multiple engines. They are after a nice day out.

I often go with my partner to a preserved railway - she likes a good day out, chuffing, peeping, a cider and a cream tea if possible. If I suggested we could get off at some wayside station and look at a shed of rotting trains and then an hour later get a different steam train she would think I was cracked!

You have to look at things through different eyes to see the point sometimes.

( the answer is to build a lunch break at a nice pub in thus getting onto the other timetable cycle!)

When l say l'm not into steam engines the conversation goes dead.

I would work on my conversational skills - much more to life than trains

Yep - if I am filming or photographing somewhere, it is unusual for someone not to ask if 'Flying Scotsman' is coming! The look on their faces when I say, for example; "no, it's a Black Five" can be comical.

I find the opposite - People stay to look at/snap a steam train going past. Someone might ask if it is FS but a steam train is a dramatic event and people want to see it.

I find they often text others to come and see it and you end up with quite a crowd

What has not been mentioned is the cost of the "Ten Year" boiler ticket and overhaul of steam engines. Even small engines have to generate about £300,000 every ten years, for large engines, like FS, the cost will now be over £1M so that is about £2000 per week - even if it is standing still.

Agreed - but for FS I am sure there will be easier ( not easy but easier) access to corporate sponsorship/donations to help with the costs

 

[Spartacus]

(The GWR gleefully pointing out that the smaller Castle had outperformed the A1)

They always forget to mention Gresley was already testing improvements before the trials

 

[norbitonflyer]

They always forget to mention Gresley was already testing improvements before the trials

Indeed, and the result was the A3. But at the time the Castle was the more powerful.

The point was that, on the occasion of my visit to Didcot at least, Flying Scotsman was significant, as one of the two locomotives involved in the trials and exhibited at Wembley (it had been exhibited the previouos year too, alongside a different Castle).

But in general, apart from being the only survivor of its class, FS is no more significant than, say Princess Elizabeth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==

Also, remove "the"... It's 'Flying Scotsman', just like 'Mallard', 'Bittern', 'Tornado', etc.

I know, I know. Along with the confusion between it and the 10 oclock service from Kings Cross to Edinburgh. (My father in law's diray records that he took the Flying Scotsman from London to Edinburgh when visiting home on leave in 1941 - I assume he meant the train rather than the locomotive)

But its not just Flying Scotsman that suffers from definite articles - I have seen and heard other examples, - "The Blackmore Vale", "The Mallard", "The Eric Treacy". (but not yet "The Thomas"............)

Curiously though, ships traditionally do take the definite article - The QE2, The Exxon Valdez etc.

 

[Spartacus]

Curiously though, ships traditionally do take the definite article - The QE2, The Exxon Valdez etc.

Ships traditionally don't though. You might have the Exxon Valdez disaster, but that involved Exxon Valdez, not 'The' Exxon Valdez.

 

[Towers]

Ships traditionally don't though. You might have the Exxon Valdez disaster, but that involved Exxon Valdez, not 'The' Exxon Valdez.

I dunno, the only time you tend to hear anyone say “Titanic” is when they’re American, and to my British ears it always grates! Rightly or wrongly it is nearly always “The Titanic” this side of the Atlantic, no? I’d say the same applies to most other ships, from personal experience.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I see FS has run the official SVR public reopening trains today, albeit with diesel assistance due to the fire risk.

 

[Flying Phil]

Indeed, and the result was the A3. But at the time the Castle was the more powerful.

The point was that, on the occasion of my visit to Didcot at least, Flying Scotsman was significant, as one of the two locomotives involved in the trials and exhibited at Wembley (it had been exhibited the previouos year too, alongside a different Castle).

But in general, apart from being the only survivor of its class, FS is no more significant than, say Princess Elizabeth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==


I know, I know. Along with the confusion between it and the 10 oclock service from Kings Cross to Edinburgh. (My father in law's diray records that he took the Flying Scotsman from London to Edinburgh when visiting home on leave in 1941 - I assume he meant the train rather than the locomotive)

But its not just Flying Scotsman that suffers from definite articles - I have seen and heard other examples, - "The Blackmore Vale", "The Mallard", "The Eric Treacy". (but not yet "The Thomas"............)

Curiously though, ships traditionally do take the definite article - The QE2, The Exxon Valdez etc.

I thought the main claim to fame for FS was that it reached the first authenticated 100mph for a steam engine in the world.....

 

[Harvester]

Only just, on 30/11/1934. When examined the dynamometer roll showed a 100mph maximum for a very short distance, when descending Stoke Bank, between Little Bytham and Essendine. 4472’s only other claim to fame was when it worked the first northbound London to Edinburgh non-stop ’Flying Scotsman’ on 1st May 1928. If any A3 had been preserved by BR for the national collection, it could well have been 60096 Papyrus because of it’s achievements in 1935.

 

[43096]

Only just, on 30/11/1934. When examined the dynamometer roll showed a 100mph maximum for a very short distance, when descending Stoke Bank, between Little Bytham and Essendine. 4472’s only other claim to fame was when it worked the first northbound London to Edinburgh non-stop ’Flying Scotsman’ on 1st May 1928. If any A3 had been preserved by BR for the national collection, it could well have been 60096 Papyrus because of it’s achievements in 1935.

Let's be honest, the most significant motive power items British history are Locomotion (for obvious reasons), Mallard (world steam speed record holder) and HST power cars 43102 and 43159 (world diesel speed record holders).

 

[kje7812]

I see FS has run the official SVR public reopening trains today, albeit with diesel assistance due to the fire risk.

No diesel today.

 

[railfan99]

A tonne of coal is about £450-odd currently.

Coal can be a 'blend' from multiple sources, and what can be substantial transport costs by rail initially, and then sea over what may be long distances of thousands of kilometres. Then presumably by road to the coal merchant, and subsequently to the preserved railway, but £450 a tonne is a huge markup from the typical spot price of coal of c.US$100-110 depending on type and grade, as sold by miners.

 

[DJ_K666]

What has not been mentioned is the cost of the "Ten Year" boiler ticket and overhaul of steam engines. Even small engines have to generate about £300,000 every ten years, for large engines, like FS, the cost will now be over £1M so that is about £2000 per week - even if it is standing still.

One mk1 TSO coach fully occupied is 64 seats. So if it did one round trip per week, averaged out, with one TSO behind it, it'd raise that. But not all of that would go to the owning group. It'd be hire fees, etc so it'd probably make it's money and be able to cover the 'down time' spent during overhauls, maintenance, etc.

I'm guessing, if it's sold out it'll be non standing thus the number of seats will be known as the railway it's visiting will know how many seats are available. Plus if booked in advance they'll know how much money it'll make over a weekend well before time.

 

[Trainlog]

Let's put this into perspective.

It's a line that has just come out of a huge financial problems from the last couple of years, only to be met with this landslip. The visit of Flying Scotsman has definitely been noticed by the press and through discussions from sites like this it has brought publicity to the Severn valley about the full line being re-opened post landslip and a draw factor to bring in a fresh audience that have heard of Scotsman but haven't had the time to go and meet the locomotive before hand.

In other words, from a publicity standpoint for the Severn valley (outsiders perspective) it looks to be very successful in that regard.

I know there are those who have questioned the choice of Scotsman. But we are what 65 years deep into Standard gauge preservation of the first heritage railways, almost as much time as the era that most of us enthusiasts primarily focus on regarding steam (1900-1968). At this point Scotsman reopening the line has become part of the lines history, and a small footnote in Scotsman's story spanning over a century now.

Heritage railways are almost like model or garden railways philosophies at this point 'as long as its safe for operation, they can run what they want, its their line'.

I've always been of the opinion that heritage should have an exemption to allow limited quantities of coal mining, so we can avoid importing the stuff from elsewhere, and avoid spending more money in importing worse stuff. However, if it does come down to it, I strongly suspect we'll need a renewable alternative eventually.

Any ideas on whether or not charcoal would be a viable alternative in future.

This is, unfortunately, the problem; however, as this debate has been going on for a few years, more or less at this point, we all know that a mine can't be financially sustainable/profitable in the UK for the minimal amount of coal that the heritage railway/traction engine community uses in comparison to steel or (formerly) the energy sector.

Coal Countdown – Power Stations of the UK

www.powerstations.uk

I think that, in addition to leaving those who are trialling oil firing to their own devices and seeing what the outcome will be like, the next best thing the sector could do would be to simply report some of the findings of biocoal trials and make the data/reports open access to the enthusiast community, maybe along with institutions such as the NRM putting out feature articles on their site such as when times steam locomotives ran on alternative fuels.

The current trials feel more like a scattered jigsaw puzzle of hearing loose stories of 'x line tried this coal type' etc etc, then utter radio silence for months with no publicised trials. More announcements in Rail Advent, as well as published results with data and anecdotes from loco crews, would be much appreciated.

But in general, apart from being the only survivor of its class, FS is no more significant than, say Princess Elizabeth.

This is kind of the problem with it being the sole surviving 'A1/A3' loco. It would be interesting as a thought experiment, to consider how popular another survivor or two from the class would be.

Would it be another loco in Hoskings' fleet? A society owned one like the Princess classes or Sir Nigel Greseley? Would it have a cosy preservation life somewhere, like on the NYMR?

If it was Papyrus that was preserved and saved in the NRM, would it be considered for overhaul again or left as a static exhibit piece like Mallard?

Certainly raises many interesting questions as a what-if exercise.

 

[DJ_K666]

Let's put this into perspective.

It's a line that has just come out of a huge financial problems from the last couple of years, only to be met with this landslip. The visit of Flying Scotsman has definitely been noticed by the press and through discussions from sites like this it has brought publicity to the Severn valley about the full line being re-opened post landslip and a draw factor to bring in a fresh audience that have heard of Scotsman but haven't had the time to go and meet the locomotive before hand.

In other words, from a publicity standpoint for the Severn valley (outsiders perspective) it looks to be very successful in that regard.

I know there are those who have questioned the choice of Scotsman. But we are what 65 years deep into Standard gauge preservation of the first heritage railways, almost as much time as the era that most of us enthusiasts primarily focus on regarding steam (1900-1968). At this point Scotsman reopening the line has become part of the lines history, and a small footnote in Scotsman's story spanning over a century now.

Heritage railways are almost like model or garden railways philosophies at this point 'as long as its safe for operation, they can run what they want, its their line'.


This is, unfortunately, the problem; however, as this debate has been going on for a few years, more or less at this point, we all know that a mine can't be financially sustainable/profitable in the UK for the minimal amount of coal that the heritage railway/traction engine community uses in comparison to steel or (formerly) the energy sector.

Coal Countdown – Power Stations of the UK

www.powerstations.uk

I think that, in addition to leaving those who are trialling oil firing to their own devices and seeing what the outcome will be like, the next best thing the sector could do would be to simply report some of the findings of biocoal trials and make the data/reports open access to the enthusiast community, maybe along with institutions such as the NRM putting out feature articles on their site such as when times steam locomotives ran on alternative fuels.

The current trials feel more like a scattered jigsaw puzzle of hearing loose stories of 'x line tried this coal type' etc etc, then utter radio silence for months with no publicised trials. More announcements in Rail Advent, as well as published results with data and anecdotes from loco crews, would be much appreciated.

This is kind of the problem with it being the sole surviving 'A1/A3' loco. It would be interesting as a thought experiment, to consider how popular another survivor or two from the class would be.

Would it be another loco in Hoskings' fleet? A society owned one like the Princess classes or Sir Nigel Greseley? Would it have a cosy preservation life somewhere, like on the NYMR?

If it was Papyrus that was preserved and saved in the NRM, would it be considered for overhaul again or left as a static exhibit piece like Mallard?

Certainly raises many interesting questions as a what-if exercise.

Absolutely. I think if Flying Scotsman is a crowd pleaser then it'll be exactly what the SVR needs at the moment. And the tickets selling out in minutes should be seen as a good sign.