Flying Scotsman Livery

[thetom22]

Does anyone know if Flying Scotsman is going to be repainted into its 4472 Apple Green LNER Livery at any point in the future? I don't mind the BR Brunswick Green 60103 look, but I hoped it'd come back in its most famous colours.

 

[TBirdFrank]

Ask Anthony Coulls at the NRM rather than make enquiries here. He will have an official answer for you.

 

[6Gman]

Does anyone know if Flying Scotsman is going to be repainted into its 4472 Apple Green LNER Livery at any point in the future? I don't mind the BR Brunswick Green 60103 look, but I hoped it'd come back in its most famous colours.

Is it not the case that it never carried Apple Green in its current condition?

 

[Cowley]

Is it not the case that it never carried Apple Green in its current condition?

That’s right, although I’m not sure if any other A3s with German style smoke deflectors and double chimney may have carried Apple Green with ‘British Railways’ lettering possibly? Does anyone else know this?
Welcome to the forum thetom22 by the way and don’t mind TBirdFrank, he’s nice really, as long as you don’t ask him to wait at Carlisle for two hours late at night. .

 

[Merthyr Imp]

The German-style smoke deflectors didn't begin to be fitted to the A3s until 1960 which would have been long after any ran in apple green livery of had 'British Railways' in full on the tender.

 

[Cowley]

The German-style smoke deflectors didn't begin to be fitted to the A3s until 1960 which would have been long after any ran in apple green livery of had 'British Railways' in full on the tender.

Ah fair enough. They can’t have run for long in that specificition before withdrawal then?
I imagine that they were pretty handy machines in their final guise?

 

[Merthyr Imp]

The fitting with double chimneys (the reason for smoke deflectors being found necessary) by all accounts did improve their performance tremendously.

 

[Cowley]

The fitting with double chimneys (the reason for smoke deflectors being found necessary) by all accounts did improve their performance tremendously.

I’d love to have experienced one on the Great Central working hard when they worked that route.
They’ve just got something about them...
People knock 60103 for various things, but I think aesthetically it’s one of the best looking steam locomotives (in any guise) to have run on the network. Extremely well proportioned to my eye.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I wish it used the number 4472 now.

 

[alexl92]

Flying Scotsman's current condition isn't exactly accurate for any one livery - it is a bit of a mishmash of eras. However, BR Green is the closest to being totally accurate they can get at present. I'd imagine they'll repaint it into LNER green at some point regardless of smoke deflectors, purely because it'll be good publicity with non-enthusiasts.

 

[2392]

Bear in mind 2751 Humorist ran with the Kylchap double chimney and exhaust pre WW2, so an L.N.E.R. A3 in apple green isn't unusual and I personally wouldn't/don't with Flying Scotsman running as 4472 with the current chimney/exhaust. May be an idea to fit Tornado/Blue Peter style Blinkers as happened to Humorist in 1947 at some point........

 

[Flying Phil]

I believe Tornado gets more publicity when it is in "Apple Green" so I expect Scotsman will also carry that at some time - much to the disgust of some "purists"- but as Alexl92 says "Flying Scotsman's current condition isn't exactly accurate for any one livery - it is a bit of a mishmash of eras." .........and it keeps it in the public eye.

 

[Spartacus]

I doubt the NRM would consider fitting either type of Humorist's deflectors to Scotsman. As the NRM have stated they won't be running it in apple green with smoke deflectors I think the best chance of Scotsman appearing in LNER livery is if it spends an extended period off the main line (at least for railtours) and returns to it's single chimney state. The performance difference between a single and double chimney'd A3 is enough to make running railtours on many routes impractical due to imposing lower loadings or extending journey times to the extent of being off-putting to passengers.

 

[Cowley]

Bear in mind 2751 Humorist ran with the Kylchap double chimney and exhaust pre WW2, so an L.N.E.R. A3 in apple green isn't unusual and I personally wouldn't/don't with Flying Scotsman running as 4472 with the current chimney/exhaust. May be an idea to fit Tornado/Blue Peter style Blinkers as happened to Humorist in 1947 at some point........

I doubt the NRM would consider fitting either type of Humorist's deflectors to Scotsman. As the NRM have stated they won't be running it in apple green with smoke deflectors I think the best chance of Scotsman appearing in LNER livery is if it spends an extended period off the main line (at least for railtours) and returns to it's single chimney state. The performance difference between a single and double chimney'd A3 is enough to make running railtours on many routes impractical due to imposing lower loadings or extending journey times to the extent of being off-putting to passengers.

I was wondering how much work would be involved to put a single chimney back on 4472? Is it basically a new smokebox, chimney and pipe work at the front end? Or is there much more to it than that?

I was wondering as well with Scotsman whether assuming it has a successful 7 years (although I’m not sure how much of the boiler ticket was already used up at the beginning?) on the mainline, would the NRM prefer to get it overhauled and back out on the mainline as quickly as possible rather than having it get more worn working out a couple more years at 25mph?

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I don't think it would need a new smokebox, but obviously a new chimney and also a different blast pipe.

 

[Willr2094]

Is it not the case that it never carried Apple Green in its current condition?

Yes and no. It never ran in actual service as 4472 as an A3 with left hand drive, double chimney and smoke deflectors. Whilst it did briefly run for the LNER as an A3, this was for one year only (it was converted to an A3 during its winter 1946 general overhaul). It first received the conversion to double chimney format in 1959 and the German style deflectors in 1961 - by then it was running as 60103, not 4472.

That appearance came when the late Sir William McAlpine sold it in the 1990s to Dr Tony Marchington. At the time, Flying Scotsman was a kit of parts after having failed at Llangollen and then dismantled for overhaul. When Marchington and McAlpine concluded the sale, that restoration was restarted. As the work drew to a close in late 1998, thoughts turned to what livery would be selected. It was believed at the time that it would resume running as 60103 in BR Green, however Marchington wanted it in Apple Green, as he believed that to be the better livery from a marketing and PR viewpoint. It was also his wish that it should retain the double chimney (which had been reinstated in 1993), so when 4472 resumed running in summer 1999, it was in a hugely awkward compromise form - LNER Apple Green but with 1959-style double chimney. Later on the German-style deflectors were reinstated over the winter of 1999/2000 - thus completing the uncomfortable appearance.

 

[xotGD]

What's wrong with large-logo rail blue?

 

[pdeaves]

What's wrong with large-logo rail blue?

That would certainly be interesting applied to some old kettle!

 

[MarkyT]

Pre WW2, Gresley was very much in favour of equipping many more pacifics with the double Kylchap exhaust arrangement. Unfortunately the company board could not be persuaded to underwrite the not inconsiderable patent licensing fees to do that, so only a select few locos were fitted, but proved the performance benefits and fuel economy of the modification incontrovertibly. Come wartime, successor Thompson applied the double Kylchap design to his pacific and P2 rebuilds as well as the small number of new build pacifics of that era, then Peppercorn subsequently specified the exhaust for his A1s and some of the A2s. I don't know exactly when the patent expired, but in the mass retrofitting of first the A4s, then the A3s in the 1950s no fees were payable which made the job extremely cost effective, justified mainly on fuel economy. The 'racing exhaust' that is the Kylchap allows remarkably free steaming together with minimal backpressure and transformed the locos, allowing almost any crew to get maximum performance with minimal effort compared to single chimney examples. Despite the A4's theoretical higher output, in practice A3s were able to work reliably on the same 90 mph diagrams interchangeably when called upon right until the end of their East Coast careers. The Gresley streamlined casing had proved to be an excellent device for lifting smoke at speed so the A4s had no problem with the lower exhaust pressure of the Kylchap. Although crew and management were delighted with the performance improvements when the A3s were also fitted, forward vision immediately became an issue and a solution was needed urgently. My father, Peter Townend, who was shedmaster at Kings Cross at the time, suggested the German design as he had observed it in use there and noted DB were actively and widely replacing older full height deflectors with the trough design, such was its efficacy. My dad was surprised that a design was prepared by Doncaster, the modifcation approved and the first loco fitted within weeks of the suggestion being made, unlike the usual protracted prototyping and testing precedure he had become used to in the industry! Whatever people think of their appearance, there is no doubt the German deflectors did their job of maintaining crew visibility of oncoming signals extremely well, and that remains supremely important, along with the loco's improved performance with the double Kylchap, on today's busy railway. If Flying Scotsman is eventually retired to the museum or a more sedate existence only on low speed heritage railways, then recreation of a more original appearance would be both practical and appropriate.

 

[Cowley]

What an excellent post MarkyT. Really enjoyed reading that.

 

[Willr2094]

Whatever people think of their appearance, there is no doubt the German deflectors did their job of maintaining crew visibility of oncoming signals extremely well, and that remains supremely important, along with the loco's improved performance with the double Kylchap, on today's busy railway. If Flying Scotsman is eventually retired to the museum or a more sedate existence only on low speed heritage railways, then recreation of a more original appearance would be both practical and appropriate.

That's true. There's no doubt that the German-type deflectors as fitted to the A3s in the early 1960s were very much effective additions from the point of view of safety, and the double Kylchap exhaust undoubtedly transformed the performance of the A3 class. Additionally, its also very much the case that since Flying Scotsman returned to the mainline in 1999 with a double chimney it has kept up with the modern railway well enough.

 

[2392]

Ironically MarkyT the patent expired not long after Gresley. Gresley unexpectedly dying in April '41 only 2 months shy of his 65th birthday [in June '41] and the Kylchap patent expiring in around September '41....... I'd also heard/read that Gresley had wanted to fit the Kylchap arrangement to all new built Pacifics and retro fitted to the existing pacifics as they passed through the works for overhaul. After all as well as the 4 Blu'uns [the A4s] Gresley also had Humourist an A3 fitted too, so had experience of both style of pacific with the devise, hence his wanting it fitted to all the pacifics at least.

 

[Flying Phil]

What an excellent post MarkyT. Really enjoyed reading that.

So did I - thank you.

 

[alexl92]

Ironically MarkT the patent expired not long after Gresley. Gresley unexpectedly dying in April '41 only 2 months shy of his 65th birthday [in June '41] and the Kylchap patent expiring in around September '41....... I'd also heard/read that Gresley had want to fit the Kylchap arrangement to all new built Pacifics and retro fitted to the existing pacifics as they passed through the works for overhaul. After all as well as the 4 Blu'uns [the A4s] Gresley also had Humourist an A3 fitted too, so had experience of both style of pacific with the devise, hence his wanting it fitted to all the pacifics at least.

Am I correct to think that Humorist was the test bed for a number of innovations being tried out on the LNER Pacific fleet?

 

[MarkyT]

Am I correct to think that Humorist was the test bed for a number of innovations being tried out on the LNER Pacific fleet?

From The LNER Encyclopedia:
https://www.lner.info/locos/A/a1a3a10.php

The first fitting of the Kylchap double blastpipe arrangement was in 1937 to No. 2751 Humorist. Humorist had been used extensively in a series of unsuccessful smoke-lifting experiments during 1932-3. This time, the double blastpipe was fitted with a lipped double chimney, but no smoke deflectors. The softer blast from the Kylchap arrangement required the use of smoke deflectors. Small wing deflectors on either side of the chimney were fitted in January 1938. These deflectors were on the small size, but the results could be accepted. They were eventually replaced with the larger deflectors used on the new Peppercorn A2s, in 1947.

Searching for details of what the earlier smoke lifting experiments entailed I found this from Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Gresley_Classes_A1_and_A3#Further_experiments

A3s 2747 Coronach and 2751 Humorist were subjected to smoke deflection trials following an accident on the London, Midland and Scottish Railway (LMS) due to poor visibility; this included the modification of the upper smokebox area surrounding the chimney. Originally the whole smokebox wrapper was retained in order to form an air duct, with the exit behind the chimney, but this was found ineffective. The next stage, at least with 2751, was to cut off the top part of the wrapper, but retaining the sloping plate that directed air flow upwards, and therefore lifting the smoke above the locomotive. The original chimney was replaced by a double stove-pipe variety, and miniature deflector plates were added on either side, angled to concentrate the air flow when the locomotive was on the move.

 

[bspahh]

As the work drew to a close in late 1998, thoughts turned to what livery would be selected. It was believed at the time that it would resume running as 60103 in BR Green, however Marchington wanted it in Apple Green, as he believed that to be the better livery from a marketing and PR viewpoint.

I was working for Oxford Molecular back then, when Tony Marchington was the CEO. My desk was next to the colour laser printer. Although the printer was massive, in its own little room, it only had a small tray for the acetates, so I was always having to refill it, mostly for presentations about the Flying Scotsman.

 

[Cowley]

I was working for Oxford Molecular back then, when Tony Marchington was the CEO. My desk was next to the colour laser printer. Although the printer was massive, in its own little room, it only had a small tray for the acetates, so I was always having to refill it, mostly for presentations about the Flying Scotsman.

You could’ve tinkered with the shade of Apple Green bspahh...
It’s been said that owning 4472 took its toll on Tony Marchington.
Be interested to hear of your experiences?