Flight late arriving - advanced ticket

[telstarbox]

To the OP: look on a website like FlightStats and see if the flight you're on is often delayed. Stansted tends to be better than Heathrow (and budget point to point airlines are often better for punctuality). If you'd struggle with the cost of buying a brand new ticket, play it safe and get the train 2.5 hours after landing to be safe

 

[Greenback]

To the OP: look on a website like FlightStats and see if the flight you're on is often delayed. Stansted tends to be better than Heathrow (and budget point to point airlines are often better for punctuality). If you'd struggle with the cost of buying a brand new ticket, play it safe and get the train 2.5 hours after landing to be safe

Sound advice. It is what I always do. It reduces the chances of being unable to catch the booked train, and I usually enjoy a pint or two, a decent meal or a few cups of tea while I'm waiting.

 

[bb21]

The other way I used to do it was to get an AP a couple of hours after the plane is scheduled to land, then also get another, usually dirt cheap, AP or National Express funfare for the last departure of the day, just to be safe. This is obviously easier to do from London airports.

This way you can go straight away if your plane landed on time and not have to wait forever. At the same time, it wouldn't break the bank if you needed insurance.

 

[WestCoast]

Allow me to make this personal. I am presently a student in my fifth year of study, I would have graduated sooner had it not been for problems related to severe depression. I live off the small amount of money that is typical in this position; the vast majority of my income must go on day-to-day expenses and housing. My girlfriend lives in Helsinki. To see her regularly, and at more or less all times be looking forward to plans to see her, greatly improves my ability to cope with life in general. Flights to Helsinki tend to cost me about £100 return, which requires me to save as much as I can in order to make the trip several times over a year. Flights leave from London, and I must travel from Leeds. An open ticket is out of the question; to be able to afford that trip I must book in advance.

I'd ditch the trip to London if at all possible. easyJet flew Manchester to Helsinki up until a few months ago, but there are still other options. You could try collecting Airmiles (tesco clubcard/credit card paid off each month e.t.c) and pay for KLM from Leeds/Bradford to Helsinki via Amsterdam. Alternatively, Finnair from Manchester. TPE do Airport Advances.

The rail system is based on the free market, and the motivation of every TOC, as with any business is the maximisation of revenue and profit.

Very much the case in the UK. The railways aren't run as a public service. Not always the case on other networks.

Airport Advances are very good idea. The passenger must prove their flight was late and have the ticket endorsed before travel, which is usually a simple procedure and this is made very clear. It has worked well for First TransPennine Express out off Manchester Airport for years. This FirstGroup TOC obviously sees this as important.

 

[evil_hippo]

Airport Advances are very good idea. The passenger must prove their flight was late and have the ticket endorsed before travel, which is usually a simple procedure and this is made very clear. It has worked well for First TransPennine Express out off Manchester Airport for years. This FirstGroup TOC obviously sees this as important.

Quite. This would avoid any revenue loss to the railway from any others that would purchase an advance ticket.

Greenback and Flamingo are quite correct that the railway works within an open market, and I don't disagree with the fact. I do vehemently disagree with anyone that likes it that way.

In late modern society, mobility is widespread and is most definitely a requirement of full social inclusion. Though this is not how they are operated in this country at present, I view the railways as a social service that ought to have a duty to provide that for all.

Presently, the railway operates in its far from perfect form, in which the government does not subsidise the TOCs to a level that reflects the social and economic benefits of the service they provide, thus requiring the TOCs to increase fares. While this must be the case, building in a greater level of leniency within the advance fares system for delays beyond the passenger's control is the least the industry can do.

 

[Greenback]

I am happy to say that I do not like the way that the system is set up at present, and I would be much happier if there was more of a social mobility aspect to the provision of services and fares.

However, if the government is not interested in promoting social mobility to a greater degree, it's naive and hopelessly optimistic to expect private businesses to do so. I also suspect that many people might argue that social inclusion is defined more by being able to travel to take advantage of work, study and entertainment opportunities, rather than maintaining a relationship with a person in a foreign country!

 

[evil_hippo]

However, if the government is not interested in promoting social mobility to a greater degree, it's naive and hopelessly optimistic to expect private businesses to do so.

Private companies must be profitable within the bounds of the subsidy that they receive or premium that they pay. This determines fare levels, and leads the company to account for different willingness to pay for travel by offering cheaper and more expensive tickets, the cheapest being advance tickets with very restrictive terms.

None of this, however, affects whether the company wishes to make reasonable allowances within the terms of its advance tickets. This could include allowing for delays outside of the passenger's control which the passenger has proof of, like airline delays, or allowing passengers who have missed their booked train to use the quietest late evening trains without penalty.

To do so may lose a small amount of revenue. However, given the hardship likely to be encountered by passengers who bought cheap tickets in the first place being charged further, that small amount of revenue comes at the cost of very poor customer relations and generally poor reputation. As such, even within the free market paradigm, the TOC probably doesn't gain significantly from being unreasonable about this sort of thing.

 

[island]

You could try collecting Airmiles (tesco clubcard/credit card paid off each month e.t.c) and pay for KLM from Leeds/Bradford to Helsinki via Amsterdam.

At the risk of going dangerously off-topic, this strategy will be a lot worse come November 16th when Airmiles rebrand as Avios and start charging taxes and fees on redemptions.

 

[jon0844]

At best an upset customer (genuinely delayed through no fault of their own) won't travel with them again. At worst, they go to the Daily Mail who blow it all out of proportion.

We've had the discussions elsewhere and if you're delayed by a bus getting to the train station to begin your journey, you're screwed - even if the bus is operated by the same company. That might be the way it is, but there's no reason to say we like it like that or wouldn't like it changed.

 

[WestCoast]

At the risk of going dangerously off-topic, this strategy will be a lot worse come November 16th when Airmiles rebrand as Avios and start charging taxes and fees on redemptions.

Just read the e-mail, not all that pleased as an airmiles collector, but at least the regional departure points surcharge (which applied to all airports not categorised as London) has gone.

 

[Greenback]

To do so may lose a small amount of revenue. However, given the hardship likely to be encountered by passengers who bought cheap tickets in the first place being charged further, that small amount of revenue comes at the cost of very poor customer relations and generally poor reputation. As such, even within the free market paradigm, the TOC probably doesn't gain significantly from being unreasonable about this sort of thing.

The TOC's probably think that they do gain substantially from officially enforcing the T&C's. There are, for example, the people who buy two advance tickets, one as an insurance policy, as well as those that choose to opt for more fexible tickets who would not do so if the T&C's were officially relaxed.

There are also those that simply throw an Advance ticket away and buy a single if they are delayed, without even seeing if the ticket office or guard will endorse it for travel. They know the conditions, and just accept that the tickets ar enot valid. I don't think we can ever know how many people do this, but I am cetain it is soemthing that the TOC's are well aware of and factor into their commercial decision making.

As for the hardship of the individual traveller, I'm afraid that has no bearing on the situation. I doubt I will be able to go and get Curry's to change their terms and conditions on free delivery and free credit when on the grounds that I am recovering from an operation, not working and not earning money while laid up, leading me to be skint yet still in need of a washing machine. And if Iw as able to doa bit of a deal at the discretion of the store, should this then become official advertised policy? after all, it probably wouldn;t cost the much in revenue and they would get very positive publicity out of it...

 

[Roylang]

As for the hardship of the individual traveller, I'm afraid that has no bearing on the situation. I doubt I will be able to go and get Curry's to change their terms and conditions on free delivery and free credit when on the grounds that I am recovering from an operation, not working and not earning money while laid up, leading me to be skint yet still in need of a washing machine. And if Iw as able to doa bit of a deal at the discretion of the store, should this then become official advertised policy? after all, it probably wouldn;t cost the much in revenue and they would get very positive publicity out of it...

Fully agree Greenback. For some reason the railways are always seen as being a "public service" despite being run by commercial companies when other industries, airlines included, are not.

By buying anything on a cheap deal we generally accept that there are Terms and Conditions are not actually in our favour. That is what makes the deal cheap.

Compare a fully flexible BA ticket London -> Frankfurt (£700 on the example I looked at today) with the equivalent flight on a cheap deal with Ryan Air (£42). Same dates, similar times. We all accept that the Ryan Air deal is like a fixed bus journey and if we are late it will cost us dear for a new ticket. We also accept that the service we will get will not be the same and that we will have to pay for every "extra". Why is there not the same acceptance with rail?

Whilst I understand Evil_Hippo's situation and sympathise, at the end of the day the rail service of the UK is not a charity.

Roy

 

[Greenback]

I sympathise with evil-hippo too Roy, and as I said before, I would prefer the raiwlay system to be run more as a public service as well.

When I fly abroad, as money is usually tight I spend a lot of tiem not only looking for the best airline ticket prices, but also working out the costs of transport to and from the airport at each end.

This often comes up with some surprising results, as in the flight from Barcelona to robin Hood which was the cheapest, if not most quickest or msot convenient option! I booked Advance tickets on the latest train of the day, which allowed plenty of time in case of delay, although I knew that I was taking a risk if the flight was cancelled or switched to a different UK airport.

I decided it was worth it as this option was £150 each cheaper all told than flying into Bristol on the same day and buying walk up tickets back from there.

 

[Roylang]

I booked Advance tickets on the latest train of the day, which allowed plenty of time in case of delay, although I knew that I was taking a risk if the flight was cancelled or switched to a different UK airport.

But don't forget that you have rights under EU legislation in such cases and, therefore, the risk is minimal. If the flight did arive at a different airport or was cancelled, the airline has to get you home.

Regulation (EC) 261/2004 is the saviour and it is worth knowing your rights if you fly, even not regularly. Some low cost airlines will ignore these until you ask for them.

This was written to help explain in simple language what the regulation means and gives some good examples: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_portal/passenger_rights/doc/2008/q_and_a_en.pdf

Roy

 

[Flamingo]

Funnily enough, I heard most of the arguments on this thread yesterday (poor customer service, not encouraging people to use rail, the man on the platform said I could, I'll never travel by rail again, I thought you had discretion to do that, work bought the ticket for me).

It was somebody who was sitting in 1st class, having paid £5 less than the Off-Peak single fare (in effect a £110 discount on the Flexible 1st Class ticket), with their 1st Advance ticket that was several hours out of date.

The reason for their delay? They had gone for coffee with a friend.

Should I have accepted his arguments and moved on?

 

[richw]

The reason for their delay? They had gone for coffee with a friend.

Should I have accepted his arguments and moved on?

Perhaps chuck him off whilst at full linespeed dont worry stopping to chuck him off!

 

[yorkie]

The reason for their delay? They had gone for coffee with a friend.

Should I have accepted his arguments and moved on?

Nope, I doubt anyone here would have sympathy with that argument!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Funnily enough, I heard most of the arguments on this thread yesterday (poor customer service, not encouraging people to use rail, the man on the platform said I could, I'll never travel by rail again, I thought you had discretion to do that, work bought the ticket for me).

It was somebody who was sitting in 1st class, having paid £5 less than the Off-Peak single fare (in effect a £110 discount on the Flexible 1st Class ticket), with their 1st Advance ticket that was several hours out of date.

The reason for their delay? They had gone for coffee with a friend.

Should I have accepted his arguments and moved on?

But surely you can see the difference between that and what we are talking about in this thread (delays that are totally out of the passengers hand). I understand with the current rules / tickets both are treated the same generally, but surely you can see the difference in the two cases. No one here is trying to defend people like that who are trying it on.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I don't think the TOCs should be under any kind of obligation to accept a delayed flight as a reason for allowing flexibility in an advance purchase ticket, but I do think it's poor business sense not to.

I say this because nobody, or such an insignificant amount of people that it doesn't matter, ever land at an airport and then think to themselves "nah, I don't want to go home/to my hotel, I'll hang around here for a bit". So if the aggregate reliability for all airlines is around what, 85% I think? then that is the amount of people who will be on the train they are booked on. However, the amount of business the TOCs will lose from people (like me) who are not prepared to risk it with advance tickets and think standard fares are too expensive compared to the car, isn't worth the amount they can excess on the 15% who don't make their booked connection.

All it would need is a simple system that, say, you had to upgrade your ticket on the day to a flexible one, but you could apply for a guranteed refund from head office minus an admin fee of £5. That would mean people weren't put off from travelling by train, but yet of the 15% who had to upgrade, not all would apply for their refunds as many would forget or couldn't be bothered. But they could not then take their frustation out on the railway, as the onus would be on them to get their money back.

 

[Flamingo]

But surely you can see the difference between that and what we are talking about in this thread (delays that are totally out of the passengers hand). I understand with the current rules / tickets both are treated the same generally, but surely you can see the difference in the two cases. No one here is trying to defend people like that who are trying it on.

The delay may be out of the passengers hands, but the ticket that THEY bought is entirely up to them, and (at the risk of sounding like Michael O'Leary) the restrictions are fully available and made known to them when they buy the ticket.

Basically, the question is, is it the TOC's fault that people have bought an inappropriate ticket, when the customer has been advised of the restrictions (and inappropriateness of the ticket) when they bought it?

And the follow on from that is why should the TOC accommodate these people, but not others who are also delayed / late?
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Why not just get on the later train (if necessary), suitcase and ticket in hand, and when approached just shrug and 'speekee no engleeesh' ?

Because train guards are not stupid. Last two "no speek english" I had issues with, one had been on his mobile (speaking english with a "Sauf London, innit" accent when I walked past him earlier, the other - well lets just say I had suspicions, and after I eventually got the money from him, he was sitting there reading a Times ten minutes later!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps chuck him off whilst at full linespeed dont worry stopping to chuck him off!

Tempting, It took nearly ten minutes of patiently explaining to him, in a variety of ways, "pay or get off, make your mind up, no, those are the only two options", and listening to bull****. He then asks for an expenses receipt, so the bugger was claiming it back anyway!

 

[richw]

He then asks for an expenses receipt, so the bugger was claiming it back anyway!

apologise and say your receipts arent working

 

[Flamingo]

apologise and say your receipts arent working

I did him an off-peak, for the amount of time he wasted, I should have charged a full open!

 

[Roylang]

But surely you can see the difference between that and what we are talking about in this thread (delays that are totally out of the passengers hand). I understand with the current rules / tickets both are treated the same generally, but surely you can see the difference in the two cases. No one here is trying to defend people like that who are trying it on.

But the issue is where do you draw the line and how much proof do you need? I once missed a train because the some idiot collecting the houshold refuse pressed the empty button right outside my house. Result: I could not get the car off the drive for several hours while an army of workers cleaned the street.

Was it my fault? No. Can I prove the delay easily? No. Would I expect the railways to make allowance for me? No.

You can miss a train for hundreds of reasons that are out of your control, many being impossible to prove. How do you draw a line?

Roy
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did him an off-peak, for the amount of time he wasted, I should have charged a full open!

You are just too nice Flamingo

Roy

 

[LexyBoy]

Where does it end though? Should we have semi-flexible Advance tickets for football matches, in case they overrun or are cancelled?

It would be easier IMO for TOCs to offer airport passengers some discretion at the station - i.e. endorsing AP tickets for later travel or possibly excessing them to the appropriate fare. Most airport stations are fairly dedicated to airport traffic so it would be easy to have posters stating that Advance tickets must be endorsed before travelling if the booked train's already gone. However, it's obviously in their short-term business interest to charge for a new ticket.

--

The fundamental problem with Advance tickets is that many/most people just don't understand ticketing. At all. The message that "buying online in advance" has been hammered in so much, means that people buy Advance tickets without knowing how restrictive they are. They just see a list of seemingly random prices for different trains, pick the cheapest at a time they want and buy it. For some, they get Advance tickets and don't realise they will be heavily penalised if they get a different train - even one that was the same price at the time of booking, whilst others get an Off Peak ticket and believe they are tied to a single train. It's also exploited by TOCs who know full well that journey planners default to the cheapest tickets, which is why people buy two £25 Advances instead of a £51 walk-on return.

(And before the "well they clicked a button to agree to the T&Cs" argument comes up - obviously yes they did, but the important parts should be made very clear from the start. If I buy a ticket from the station, they won't read out the entire CoC and T&Cs for the ticket, but they will clearly state if it is valid only on that train).

tl;dr - make it totally idiot-proof so that anyone booking cannot possibly miss the fact that they must travel on the booked train. Honest passengers then don't get caught out, and chancers don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[snail]

But surely you can see the difference between that and what we are talking about in this thread (delays that are totally out of the passengers hand).

They are also out of the TOC's hand. If you miss a flight because a train breaks down or there is some major disruption then most travel insurance will contribute towards the cost of arranging an alternative flight. But you have to pay the premium to get the benefit.

I can see the reasoning of FTPE with their Manchester Airport Advance tickets, as train travel is very much the poor relation in terms of getting to/from the airport so anything that encourages people to use the trains must be a good thing (for them - don't ask commuters trying to get past luggage on a 5pm service from Piccadilly. ).

 

[Flamingo]

Where does it end though? Should we have semi-flexible Advance tickets for football matches, in case they overrun or are cancelled?

Don't get me started about football fans and Advance or group and split tickets

 

[All Line Rover]

Don't get me started about football fans and Advance or group and split tickets

Yes, I know. :roll: My sympathies go to all Virgin and London Midland staff who have to work when there is a football match on at Wembley!

And especially, I forgot to add, when London Midland HQ have the great idea of making the "Great Escape" offer coincide with a major football match! :roll: I hear all these drunk Liverpudlians going: "It's only an extra tenner to upgrade to First Class." (Which is overflowing!! :roll

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, I know. :roll: My sympathies go to all Virgin and London Midland staff who have to work when there is a football match on at Wembley!

...don't forget the Chiltern and LU staff?

 

[All Line Rover]

...don't forget the Chiltern and LU staff?

I have little experience with those operators. (OK I know I use LU, but the football supporters usually go in one direction only. )

 

[bb21]

I have little experience with those operators. (OK I know I use LU, but the football supporters usually go in one direction only. )

If they arrive with Virgin then I would imagine more people going on LU than hopping across to Marylebone and taking Chiltern. Either way, one of the two will be involved.