FirstGroup eyes long-term First Great Western deal

[Pumbaa]

For franchised services yes, I can't find anything that says the dft have to agree to the use of stock for services that are not franchised. The Railways Act 1993 gave the Secretary of State the power to decide which services should be provided under a franchise agreement. The original powers were with the Office for Rail Passenger franchising, then the SRA and now with the dft. Nowhere do I see legislation that the dft can prevent a company form accessing rolling stock. First could take the dft to court if the dft tried to block them from using their own trains where they wanted to.

- DfT don't need to stop the stock going to fHT, they need to stop it leaving the GW franchise. Which they can do without any questions whatsoever by writing them into the minimum service spec.
- ORR can block the move on the rolling stock access agreement that OAOs use to run services. Which they can do on any objection raised by a party, which includes DfT as the franchisor for the GW, who have just had it written into the new franchise that the HSTs need to stay at the GW franchise to cover the minimum service spec.

 

[Zoe]

- DfT don't need to stop the stock going to fHT, they need to stop it leaving the GW franchise. Which they can do without any questions whatsoever by writing them into the minimum service spec.

But you can't force First to lease stock they don't want to lease, First can decide that the stock is not going to be available. Remember that the GW franchise started with 180s. It was the decision of First to not use them and use their own HSTs instead. This was not decided by the dft.

 

[BestWestern]

First own the HSTs so if they wanted to use them on Hull Trains or even a new Open Access operation then I don't see what the dft could do about it. If Hull Trains was a franchise then the dft of course could specify exactly the stock to be used though. First do not have to lease or sell the HSTs to anyone. I doubt the dft are going to want to risk the possibility of another company not having the stock to run the service specified so will just give the franchise to First. Even if First were going to lease them out to another comapny they could get away with charging what they liked for the HSTs as they would be essential to run the service. For this reason I'm not sure many companies will be interested in bidding. First are clearly the only option here for the new franchise.

...This thread has grown a bit since this morning, excuse me backtracking a little! I really don't think the situation will be anywhere near that simple! As has been said, if First were to lose the franchise, playing spiteful with a handful of HST sets is highly unlikely to do their long-term future any good, and would be an incredibly stupid move. Not something that such a big business would be expected to indulge in. First also want West Coast remember, which returns the bargaining chip back to the DfT. Hull Trains has it's own fleet of trains and wouldn't need the HST sets, and if they were sent there the existing stock would then be freed up; unless of course the nasty evil First are going to lease every spare bit of rolling stock in the country just to spite their competitors!

 

[sprinterguy]

I wonder whether there’d be the possibility of stock transfer within First Group to alleviate the problems the six First-owned HSTs could possibly have on the Great Western franchise? DfT specifies that the six HSTs go to the open access Hull Trains, where ownership of stock isn’t a problem, and in return, the five HT 180s go across to Great western, along with the five East Coast/Northern 180s to fill the void.

Unfortunately I think this would be detrimental to the long term prospects of Hull Trains, as I’m sure that the track access charges, maintenance costs and leasing charges would be higher for the HSTs (Especially in 2+8 formation) than they ever would have been for the 180s.

 

[Zoe]

DfT specifies that the six HSTs go to the open access Hull Trains, where ownership of stock isn’t a problem, and in return, the five HT 180s go across to Great western, along with the five East Coast/Northern 180s to fill the void.

I don't think the dft can actually force First to move their HSTs to Hull Trains if First didn't want to. What they could do though is specify that the 180s are to be part of the Greater Western franchise so effectively First would need to find some trains to run Hull Trains.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think the dft can actually force First to move their HSTs to Hull Trains if First didn't want to. What they could do though is specify that the 180s are to be part of the Greater Western franchise so effectively First would need to find some trains to run Hull Trains.

Hmm, if they have the power to specify that then what's to stop them taking the GC ones to FGW too? Much more need for them there

 

[Zoe]

Hmm, if they have the power to specify that then what's to stop them taking the GC ones to FGW too? Much more need for them there

Good point, if the dft had the power to specify any train as part of a franchise then in theory they could go to any heritage railway and take stock off them. The question here is if the dft can take stock away from an Open Access operator by force. If so then it makes Open Access an even more risky business. Would GNWR have wanted to order new Polaris trains from China only to later have them taken away by the dft even if the ORR had allowed them to run services?

 

[cj_1985]

as im pretty sure i have already said...
the DfT has (as i understand it) first refusal on stock... if they dont have a use for it then the ROSCO can lease it out to whoever they want...

Stock thats lease to a franchise is on contract for (in most cases) for the length of the franchise (and possibly beyond)...
stock that is leased to an open access firm like GC or FHT... will be on a set length contract...probably up to the end of the OAOs access rights

i again cant see the DfT being able to force a ROSCO to terminate a lease to an operator... not saying that they couldnt or wouldnt try... just that i cant see them being able to do so.


we already saw that the DfT had the 5x class 180 units (that hadnt already been leased by FHT and GC) ringfenced for use by EC or (as its now expected) GW. same as they did with the mk.3s that were originally planned for certain EC service/routes.


again re. the FG HST sets... despite my previous posts... i think its fair to say that FG wouldnt cut off their nose to spite their face... but you have to accept that FG are the owners of the HST sets and NOT a ROSCO... so while they could be asked/talked into leasing them to another operators if they lost the ICGW, that realistically FG dont HAVE to do anything that they dont want to do with the HSTs.


Also to clear up how the FG/FGW HST situation would work...
because FG own a few HST sets doesnt mean that FGW are getting their use for free... it most likely means that FGW is leasing the HSTs from FG.

We should also keep in mind that the DfT blocked Porterbrook leasing a HST set to FHT (despite negotiations being at an advanced stage) when there was the issue with the class 222 being dropped. in order to safeguard them/it for future use with AXC... forcing FHT to lease Mk.3s, a DVT and 86101 and run a connecting shuttle from doncater to hull using class 222s or borrowed/hired FTPX class 170/3s before the first class 180s arrived on the scene...


ICGW -Intercity Great Western Franchise
AXC - Arriva Cross Country
FG - First Group
FGW - First Great Western (First Greater Western)
FHT - First Hull Trains
FTPX - First Transpenine Express
GC - Grand Central
OAO - Open Access Operator
ROSCO - Railway Stock Leasing Company (ie. Eversholt, Porterbook, Angel Trains)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

unless of course the nasty evil First are going to lease every spare bit of rolling stock in the country just to spite their competitors!

its what i would do in their place... would give them a good reserve.. and the ability in theory to run additional services or just strengthen existing services or... would give the ability to offer more than the other bidders