FirstBus and Stagecoach Manchester salary

[fowler9]

I really can't understand what the fuss is about. Everywhere I've worked it's been the case that the longer serving employees will accrue additional benefits - holidays, bonuses, perks etc - over a period of time. This has always seemed highly sensible to me as, for the employer, it encourages longer service and for the employee it's something for them to aspire to.

Robert

Thats not how it works though. For with many companies new starters are on contracts that will never give them sick pay, increased holidays etc. etc. And as for final salary pensions, no chance. Doesn't matter how long they stay there. Where I work now the only thing that will go up for me if I stay is the amount of notice I have to give if I want to leave.

 

[Robertj21a]

Thats not how it works though. For with many companies new starters are on contracts that will never give them sick pay, increased holidays etc. etc. And as for final salary pensions, no chance. Doesn't matter how long they stay there. Where I work now the only thing that will go up for me if I stay is the amount of notice I have to give if I want to leave.

Well, if they are new starters, they can choose whether to join that company or not. It's for each individual to determine if the package suits them.

I agree that some benefits have been reduced in recent years but it's still in an employer's interests to offer a package that will attract the right type of recruit.

Robert

 

[plarailfan]

Some shifts around the area where I live (West Yorkshire) are scheduled for almost five and a half hours before a meal break is due, so other than a quick toilet break at the terminus, a driver can easily find himself having to drive for for longer than that due to being stuck in roadworks, or rush hour jams ! It's terrible ! I have driven buses in the past, but it's not something I intend going back to anytime soon. I mean, you can't really annoy all your passengers by parking up because you've run out of driving time ten minutes away from where they all want to alight !

 

[fowler9]

Well, if they are new starters, they can choose whether to join that company or not. It's for each individual to determine if the package suits them.

I agree that some benefits have been reduced in recent years but it's still in an employer's interests to offer a package that will attract the right type of recruit.

Robert

In many industries at the mo choosing which company to join isn't on the cards. You take what you can get.

 

[SWTH]

If the duty does not comply with the rules (I presume you mean Drivers Hours Rules) then send it to the Traffic Commissioner bringing it to his / her attention. Alternatively why not post it on here so it can be looked at and an opinion given.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you mean the hourly rate is crap or the gross pay for the week?
Many drivers in my experience work longer hours so that the gross pay is "surviveable" on. (I use the term guardedly not suggesting that this means the pay is acceptable or sufficient)

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I used an illegal duty as an example of to show how a driver may be treated for bringing it up. I've seen it happen and then ended up having to argue over it myself with management because it is an infringement of the rules, regardless of what they thought.

Many bus companies are run on the FUD principle: Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt. Drivers fear making a wrong call over the legality of something (the fear of losing their job), they are uncertain of the rules because management won't tell them what they are, and they are doubtful of any advice given.

Last tax year I grossed £22,100. Not bad for a bus driver in Cornwall. Bear in mind however, that had I done a standard 40hr week every week, that gross pay would have been £16,448. That means I averaged a 55hr week, and I still am not financially comfortable each month, due to the ridiculous living costs in Cornwall.

Hourly pay is crap, take home is crap. Why should I spend nearly 70hrs a week at work (including unpaid breaks and travel) and still be struggling, especially when the job is very safety critical?

Oh, that's another word that is taboo in the bus industry - safety.

 

[notadriver]

So 70 hours at work and only 55 hours paid ? Is it worth getting a loan and getting your LGV licence?

 

[SWTH]

Down here HGV driving is paid even worse - a few drivers I know came from long-distance HGV driving for better wages. With any luck I'm hopefully going to be working on the railways before long, but if that falls through then its time to move up country and borrow money to train for another industry.

 

[34D]

Some shifts around the area where I live (West Yorkshire) are scheduled for almost five and a half hours before a meal break is due, so other than a quick toilet break at the terminus, a driver can easily find himself having to drive for for longer than that due to being stuck in roadworks, or rush hour jams !

Note that it's 5.5 hours _driving_ not a continuous 5.5 hours from when he started. With 5 minutes at either terminus could well start on a bus at 6am and be relieved at 12 noon.

Thankfully the Road Transport Working Time Directive stipulates a shift to be max 6 hours long, then a 20 min break must be taken.

 

[SWTH]

Note that it's 5.5 hours _driving_ not a continuous 5.5 hours from when he started. With 5 minutes at either terminus could well start on a bus at 6am and be relieved at 12 noon.

Thankfully the Road Transport Working Time Directive stipulates a shift to be max 6 hours long, then a 20 min break must be taken.

Only if that 5 minutes is actually classified as a break (i.e. Away from the vehicle).

From the VOSA Guide:

Domestic driving limits
Driving is defined as being at the controls of a vehicle for the purposes of controlling its movement, whether it is moving or stationary with the engine running, even for a short period of time.

If you are at the wheel of the vehicle, it counts towards the 5.5hrs total, which does not reset until a 30 minute break has been taken.

 

[RT4038]

Only if that 5 minutes is actually classified as a break (i.e. Away from the vehicle).

From the VOSA Guide:



If you are at the wheel of the vehicle, it counts towards the 5.5hrs total, which does not reset until a 30 minute break has been taken.

Please read the VOSA guide again:
Domestic driving limits
Driving is defined as being at the controls of a vehicle for the purposes of controlling its movement, whether it is moving or stationary with the engine running, even for a short period of time.

Already you have 'interpreted' the rules away from its strict meaning - using the phrase 'i.e. Away from the vehicle' and 'If you are at the wheel of the vehicle'. If you are at the wheel of the vehicle, with the engine not running, you are not controlling its movement and are therefore not driving. You do not have to be away from the vehicle or the wheel for this not to count towards your 5.5 hours driving total.

Alternatively, within any period of 8.5 hours in the working day, total breaks amounting to at least
45 minutes are taken so that the driver does not drive for more than 7 hours and 45 minutes. The driver must in addition have a break of at least 30 minutes to obtain rest or refreshment at the end of this period, unless it is the end of the working day.

This alternative could, theoretically, permit multiple layovers with the engine switched off of short duration. Typically this could be 3 breaks of 15min.

 

[SWTH]

Please show me where in the VOSA guide it states breaks can be taken when seated behind the wheel, regardless of whether the engine is running. Your interpretation is symtomatic of the attitude that prevails within the bus industry of working drivers as hard as possible, for as little as possible, for as long as possible.

I have it on good authority (directly from a VOSA inspector no less), that unless the time the vehicle is stopped is intended as a break (i.e. not driving, dealing with passengers or anything to do with the operation of that vehicle) it cannot be counted as time on break.

 

[RT4038]

Show me in the VOSA guide (PSV375) where it says you can't!
Their words are 'in which the driver is able to obtain rest and refreshment'. Doing no other work and eating your packed lunch would qualify?
You are quite right - time sitting behind the wheel with the engine switched off whilst taking fares (or not sitting behind the wheel but loading luggage etc) could not be counted as break. But it is not driving time either and would not count towards the 5.5 hours. However, it is not compulsory to be 'away from the vehicle' during a break, but the ability to do so probably would be by implication.

The bus industry generally works on thin margins (those in rural areas such as Cornwall especially so), and with drivers wages representing the majority of costs, it is inevitable that companies are going to try and maximise productivity whilst paying the market rate for staff. Unlike in the 60s & 70s, staff shortages are not currently common so presumably they are getting the productivity/pay rates somewhere right, perhaps factoring in the cost of a higher turnover than in some industries.

I don't know about this FUD principle - but I have come across a lot of drivers who misunderstand or simply are unaware of the rules, complicated that they are, and then assume some kind of conspiracy to lawbreak amongst employers. That is not to say some will sail close to the wind!!

As 'Titfield' says, post the offending duty(s) on here and opinions will be given.

 

[PGSX]

Interesting how the conversation went from different rates of pay in different companies to what it really takes to be a bus driver and what comes with it. Thanks a lot for all your posts, it does answer some of the questions, that haven't been asked yet.

You all did make me think I've made a right choice to apply for the job. I used to do 60 hours a week on average and I'm not scared of short breaks (at least you could go to the loo once per shift!!!) or being treated as a person, who only just starts working in the company. C'mon, noone expects being treated equally (wishful thinking) and you all do know, that being a beginner is not easy. But the job is paid from the start well above minimum wage, I don't quite understand how £20k could not fulfill someone's needs. I've been on £12k per year, my partner was £14.5k and we were both happy, being able to pay back our small loans and credit cards. I guess it all depends on your lifestyle and how much you expect from your life. Expect nothing and be nicely surprised, expect everything and keep on struggling...

In terms of the answer to the main subject of this post: I just found out, that apparently First does something like 100% attendance bonus, when you're not late for your shift and you don't call sick. My friend told me, that his friend's wages are around £1500 cash in hand after 8 years of service for First (he's always on time an he goes to work even when feeling sick, god bless his passengers...). It would mean, that there is a scheme, that supports those, who are comitted to stay in the company and are reliable. Would be great news for me, as I've never called sick and I was late maybe 3-4 times in the last 10 years or so. My friend who worked for Burger King said, that provided you've got 100% attendance and you're not late, for every hour worked they give you £0.50, which works out around £80 per week/£4000 per year. I wonder whether it's the case in above mentioned bus companies...

 

[fowler9]

Interesting how the conversation went from different rates of pay in different companies to what it really takes to be a bus driver and what comes with it. Thanks a lot for all your posts, it does answer some of the questions, that haven't been asked yet.

You all did make me think I've made a right choice to apply for the job. I used to do 60 hours a week on average and I'm not scared of short breaks (at least you could go to the loo once per shift!!!) or being treated as a person, who only just starts working in the company. C'mon, noone expects being treated equally (wishful thinking) and you all do know, that being a beginner is not easy. But the job is paid from the start well above minimum wage, I don't quite understand how £20k could not fulfill someone's needs. I've been on £12k per year, my partner was £14.5k and we were both happy, being able to pay back our small loans and credit cards. I guess it all depends on your lifestyle and how much you expect from your life. Expect nothing and be nicely surprised, expect everything and keep on struggling...

In terms of the answer to the main subject of this post: I just found out, that apparently First does something like 100% attendance bonus, when you're not late for your shift and you don't call sick. My friend told me, that his friend's wages are around £1500 cash in hand after 8 years of service for First (he's always on time an he goes to work even when feeling sick, god bless his passengers...). It would mean, that there is a scheme, that supports those, who are comitted to stay in the company and are reliable. Would be great news for me, as I've never called sick and I was late maybe 3-4 times in the last 10 years or so. My friend who worked for Burger King said, that provided you've got 100% attendance and you're not late, for every hour worked they give you £0.50, which works out around £80 per week/£4000 per year. I wonder whether it's the case in above mentioned bus companies...

I completely disagree with giving people a bonus for not being off sick, not because it discriminates against people who are ill but because it incentivises people to go in to work sick. Last place I worked some martyr came in with Chickenpox and gave it to 8 other people. Imagine if this saint had been driving buses or working in a fast food outlet, how many people would he have infected?

 

[PGSX]

I completely disagree with giving people a bonus for not being off sick, not because it discriminates against people who are ill but because it incentivises people to go in to work sick. Last place I worked some martyr came in with Chickenpox and gave it to 8 other people. Imagine if this saint had been driving buses or working in a fast food outlet, how many people would he have infected?

I absolutely agree, but I do understand when a company supports those, who genuinely try to be on time and not call sick when they don't feel like coming to work or had one too many the night before knowing, that their shift starts in the morning the next day. I am sick and tired of people calling sick for no reason and being called by my manager to come and cover someone's shift, just because they know I'm reliable and can do it on my day off or do a double-shift if necessary. Different kind of business and not regulated by EC rules as the bus driver is, but still, annoying.

 

[fowler9]

I absolutely agree, but I do understand when a company supports those, who genuinely try to be on time and not call sick when they don't feel like coming to work or had one too many the night before knowing, that their shift starts in the morning the next day. I am sick and tired of people calling sick for no reason and being called by my manager to come and cover someone's shift, just because they know I'm reliable and can do it on my day off or do a double-shift if necessary. Different kind of business and not regulated by EC rules as the bus driver is, but still, annoying.

Managers already have measures they can take against people who take the mick. The problem is that in many industries now managers sit looking at screens full of stats and work off them instead of actually knowing their staff and managing them. I was always taught that when you go for an interview you don't say that you are punctual, hard working and reliable, these things should be a given for any job, not something to be rewarded.

 

[PGSX]

Managers already have measures they can take against people who take the mick. The problem is that in many industries now managers sit looking at screens full of stats and work off them instead of actually knowing their staff and managing them. I was always taught that when you go for an interview you don't say that you are punctual, hard working and reliable, these things should be a given for any job, not something to be rewarded.

Can't see it in my current employer and couldn't with the previous one. The worst bit is that the managers call sick, too! ...

I do think that these things should be taken for granted, yet there are so many people, that are usually late, they don't work their socks off when needed, not to mention doing their job as they're supposed to. I can only presume that the number of those unreliable, lazy and calling sick more than anyone else made some employers reward the standards they'd like to take for granted.

 

[fowler9]

Can't see it in my current employer and couldn't with the previous one. The worst bit is that the managers call sick, too! ...

I do think that these things should be taken for granted, yet there are so many people, that are usually late, they don't work their socks off when needed, not to mention doing their job as they're supposed to. I can only presume that the number of those unreliable, lazy and calling sick more than anyone else made some employers reward the standards they'd like to take for granted.

Yeah that is a good point mate. As for the staring at stats all day, I guess it depends what field you work in. I'm in Britains boom industry, customer services. Stats rule supreme and you get promoted by knowing the right people not by being any good.

 

[Antman]

Note that it's 5.5 hours _driving_ not a continuous 5.5 hours from when he started. With 5 minutes at either terminus could well start on a bus at 6am and be relieved at 12 noon.

Thankfully the Road Transport Working Time Directive stipulates a shift to be max 6 hours long, then a 20 min break must be taken.

I thought it was a 30 min break after 6 hours?

 

[Antman]

Why is it then that HGV drivers can still command high rates of pay - bonuses for working at weekends or overtime ? Maybe there are starter pcv jobs and more senior roles - Megabus for example ?

It's supply and demand, there are plenty of poorly paid HGV jobs around:cry:

Seems only train drivers can command a decent wage nowadays................hope I've not opened a can of worms there

 

[PGSX]

Yeah that is a good point mate. As for the staring at stats all day, I guess it depends what field you work in. I'm in Britains boom industry, customer services. Stats rule supreme and you get promoted by knowing the right people not by being any good.

Customer services on this side, too. And promotion method mirros what I've realised within the time I've worked here. Don't know what kind of promotion I can expect being a bus driver, but in terms of the wages, regular bus driver job gives me promotion from a current regular worker to senior manager, skipping regular supervisor and then regular manager altogether, with couple of years of career and life saved. Crazy.

 

[Titfield]

Many organisations use the "Bradford factor" method of analysing sickness / non attendance.

Basically this allocates "penalty points" for non attendance. The points are weighted so that 10 single days off (sick) would be scored as 100 points whereas 1 period of 10 days off sick would only be 10 points.

Organisations then set levels (of points being awarded) at which action is taken.

This is quite a detailed area of HR procedure so I wont go into more detail on this posting.

 

[PGSX]

Many organisations use the "Bradford factor" method of analysing sickness / non attendance.

Basically this allocates "penalty points" for non attendance. The points are weighted so that 10 single days off (sick) would be scored as 100 points whereas 1 period of 10 days off sick would only be 10 points.

Organisations then set levels (of points being awarded) at which action is taken.

This is quite a detailed area of HR procedure so I wont go into more detail on this posting.

Good thing to know this thing exists, at least for a newbie like me. Thanks for that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I am also not so sure about, is where to go to. I mean, in case they both want me to start for them, which one would you choose? Is there any significant difference between them two and has anyone got any experience with both companies?

 

[Robertj21a]

.
Stagecoach has the reputation for all-round quality and common sense. First is a long way behind, but trying to catch up.......

Robert

 

[fowler9]

Customer services on this side, too. And promotion method mirros what I've realised within the time I've worked here. Don't know what kind of promotion I can expect being a bus driver, but in terms of the wages, regular bus driver job gives me promotion from a current regular worker to senior manager, skipping regular supervisor and then regular manager altogether, with couple of years of career and life saved. Crazy.

All the very best to you mate. You can't ask for much more than job satisfaction and it can be hard to come by. My mates dad was driving the 86 in Liverpool for god knows how long, he is now driving busses in Melbourne for loads more money on loads less hours and is happy. He also has a much nicer house. I believe he just misses the British pubs. Ha ha.

 

[notadriver]

If I was choosing between companies I'd probably go for the one nearest my house or if there was only a slight difference in distance, the one that had the best routes. Personally I prefer longer routes, not going back and forth to the same council estate 8 times in a shift!

 

[SWTH]

Show me in the VOSA guide (PSV375) where it says you can't!
Their words are 'in which the driver is able to obtain rest and refreshment'. Doing no other work and eating your packed lunch would qualify?
You are quite right - time sitting behind the wheel with the engine switched off whilst taking fares (or not sitting behind the wheel but loading luggage etc) could not be counted as break. But it is not driving time either and would not count towards the 5.5 hours. However, it is not compulsory to be 'away from the vehicle' during a break, but the ability to do so probably would be by implication.

The bus industry generally works on thin margins (those in rural areas such as Cornwall especially so), and with drivers wages representing the majority of costs, it is inevitable that companies are going to try and maximise productivity whilst paying the market rate for staff. Unlike in the 60s & 70s, staff shortages are not currently common so presumably they are getting the productivity/pay rates somewhere right, perhaps factoring in the cost of a higher turnover than in some industries.

I don't know about this FUD principle - but I have come across a lot of drivers who misunderstand or simply are unaware of the rules, complicated that they are, and then assume some kind of conspiracy to lawbreak amongst employers. That is not to say some will sail close to the wind!!

As 'Titfield' says, post the offending duty(s) on here and opinions will be given.

Due to my employers social media policy it would be unwise to post details online whilst I am still a current employee.

If the pay rates are right, please explain why most bus companies are permenantly recruiting. The pay is not adequate to compensate for the stress and abuse of the job, but most new drivers don't realise this until they've passed their test and are out on their own.

Sick pay is another sore point - if you are only on SSP then chances are you can't actually afford to be sick, even when you cannot do the job well due to illness.

The bottom line is simple: drivers are treated as the lowest of the low in most companies.

 

[RT4038]

Pay rates must be somewhere right, because there is no staff shortage. Yes, there is a turnover of staff, but this can be for a whole myriad of reasons (Don't like shift work, don't like working with the public, don't like having their lives governed by the clock etc. etc.) . Yes, some of this could be reduced by paying higher wages and working easier shifts, but I daresay that the cost of doing that is far greater than the cost of the higher level of turnover. Whilst this turnover is being replaced by new recruits then the 'market rate' has been reached.
I don't know about your company, but in mine there are a lot of staff who have been there quite some time - some new recruits fall by the wayside, but I guess that this happens in many jobs?

 

[Carlisle]

Deleted
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pay rates must be somewhere right, because there is no staff shortage. Yes, there is a turnover of staff, but this can be for a whole myriad of reasons (Don't like shift work, don't like working with the public, don't like having their lives governed by the clock etc. etc.) . Yes, some of this could be reduced by paying higher wages and working easier shifts, but I daresay that the cost of doing that is far greater than the cost of the higher level of turnover. Whilst this turnover is being replaced by new recruits then the 'market rate' has been reached.
I don't know about your company, but in mine there are a lot of staff who have been there quite some time - some new recruits fall by the wayside, but I guess that this happens in many jobs?

Ok understood , but can you explain why some bus companies have in recent years gone to Eastern Europe to actively recruit staff if as you claim salaries are presently around the correct competitive level for this country

 

[Titfield]

Some companies have reported that the work ethic of Eastern European staff is stronger and that their attendance is better.