First X78 Sheffield - Doncaster

[Mugby]

Is this a service which flatters to deceive? I fail to understand why it carries an X number. It's the old 77/78 service which was originally operated by Sheffield/Rotherham/Doncaster corporations. In recent times, First have increased the frequency and given it route branded vehicles but it's slower today than it was thirty years ago. It operates in a fairly direct line between the three towns but at almost an hour and a half end to end it seems pitifully slow.

Of course it's dependent on road speeds and traffic conditions but it gives people the impression that it's a quick link. X implies express but this service is certainly no express!

 

[Deerfold]

Is this a service which flatters to deceive? I fail to understand why it carries an X number. It's the old 77/78 service which was originally operated by Sheffield/Rotherham/Doncaster corporations. In recent times, First have increased the frequency and given it route branded vehicles but it's slower today than it was thirty years ago. It operates in a fairly direct line between the three towns but at almost an hour and a half end to end it seems pitifully slow.

Of course it's dependent on road speeds and traffic conditions but it gives people the impression that it's a quick link. X implies express but this service is certainly no express!

It's not dreadfully fast, but it's significantly faster than other services that link parts of the route.

Personally I do like "X" numbers to only be actually used when some stops are missed out or a bypass/motorway taken.

Though then you get routes like the Huddersfield - Leeds X6 which is no faster than the stopping service though much faster for Huddersfield to Bradford and Bradford to Leeds because it uses bypasses and misses out stops.

 

[Galaxy]

I have often wondered why they have never took the opportunity to revert to SYT days of 277/278 (277 used to miss out Conisbrough and became X77).

Whether there would be a case for a reduced X78 (renumbered 278) stopping bus and a proper X78 with limited stops is unclear. Maybe something that FSY haven't considered but I suspect they have already mulled this one over.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Don't know how many people use it end to end - whenever I catch it, I often see a big exchange of people on and off at the interchanges at Meadowhall and Rotherham. It can be pretty useful for intermediate journeys on Sundays when the Sheffield-Doncaster stoppers are only once an hour.

 

[radamfi]

In general across the country, express services only seem to survive commercially if they run on fast roads, giving a massive journey time difference (and therefore, significantly lower PVR) compared the stopping service. This isn't the case with the X78. For example, look at the death of the 400 'express' from Bolton to Stockport.

 

[tbtc]

Its never going to compete with the train between Sheffield/ Meadowhall/ Rotherham/ Doncaster in terms to speed (or even the subsidised train fares), but the X78 is the fastest bus on the corridor (e.g. 69 is slower from Sheffield to Rotherham, 34 is slower from Rotherham to Meadowhall, 35/36/37/76 are slower from Meadowhall to Sheffield).

The problem with the X78 is that there's no places it can be easily sped up, other than avoiding Conisbrough (which is a good place for First to take passengers away from Stagecoach, so they have little incentive to go back to the old 277 route here), unless you go via the M18 like the Stagecoach 909 (which didn't work).

 

[Eagle]

You're assuming that the X is for Express, of course.

Wilts and Dorset, for instance, made it very clear that the X in their routes stood for "cross-county", not "express". The routes X1 to X8 (now split between More Bus and Salisbury Reds) were longer-distance interurban services, but they didn't have any parallel local routes they could be considered an express version of.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Yeah, in Oxfordshire, most routes with an "X" are not in any sense an express.

These ones operated by Stagecoach:
The X15 (Witney to Abingdon) certainly isn't (now Stagecoach, but an OCC contract, which has changed hands several times)
The X9 (Witney to Chipping Norton), ditto
The X8 (Kingham to Chipping Norton), ditto: and too short to really count as cross-country either

And these by Thames Travel
X39/X40 Oxford to Reading. Maybe, sort of express, as in mostly on main roads, and reasonably cross-country
X36 Wantage to Wallingford. Only express in that it is a quicker route than the 36
X32/X33 Oxford to Harwell/Chilton/Wantage. Express from Oxford to near Didcot, so OK.
X2 Oxford to Didcot. Not express at all (other than using the A34 from Oxford to North Abingdon, like all the other frequent services between the towns)
X47 Wantage to Swindon (another OCC route): not remotely express or direct

and Oxford Bus Co's X13 and X3 (Oxford - Abingdon). Ditto re the A34, and maybe, by Oxford Bus Co's standards "cross-country", but barely so, otherwise.


Stagecoach Oxfordshire's S-series ("Superior Service"), most of which are now also Stagecoach Gold services (S1/2 Oxford - Witney & Carterton, S3 Oxford - Charlbury/Chipping Norton and S5 Oxford - Bicester area) probably count more as express services, on account of the direct routes & main roads they generally use. (The non-gold S4 to Banbury, rather less so, and it goes a bit round the houses)

 

[sheff'd victoria]

We e-mailed FSY and asked them why it could not be a limited stop service, they said ( reading between the lines ) that they would have to put on extra services and this would have an effect of their profits

 

[Mugby]

The problem with the X78 is that there's no places it can be easily sped up, other than avoiding Conisbrough (which is a good place for First to take passengers away from Stagecoach, so they have little incentive to go back to the old 277 route here), unless you go via the M18 like the Stagecoach 909 (which didn't work).

I think I remember Stagecoach 909 but could you remind me exactly what it was?

Presumably it's disappearance was due to lack of user?

 

[radamfi]

We e-mailed FSY and asked them why it could not be a limited stop service, they said ( reading between the lines ) that they would have to put on extra services and this would have an effect of their profits

Well, if you did provide an express service that would take passengers away from the stopping service. So if there are few new passengers generated then it won't be worth it. It would only be worth it if the total number of passengers overall increases a lot. Alternatively you could cut the frequency of the stopping service to pay for the express but that may actually lose passengers overall.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think I remember Stagecoach 909 but could you remind me exactly what it was?

Presumably it's disappearance was due to lack of user?

The 909 Stagecoach Express went from Sheffield to Meadowhall to Doncaster express, then on to Scunthorpe and Hull.

 

[Deerfold]

First don't seem keen on Express services, whilst Stagecoach has introduced a number, in the areas I'm familiar with First has cut-back. They replaced the half-hourly (quarter hourly at peaks) express services between Huddersfield and Halifax with extra services on the stopping service.

 

[tbtc]

We e-mailed FSY and asked them why it could not be a limited stop service, they said ( reading between the lines ) that they would have to put on extra services and this would have an effect of their profits

Where would you have limited stop sections then? Which areas do you propose would lose their current frequency?

The reason that the X78 was increased from every half hour (in the days of the 277/278) to every nine/ten minutes is partly because it replaced other services (the 501/502 from Sheffield to Meadowhall, the 601 from Meadowhall to Rotherham, the 137/138 along Fitzwilliam Road in Rotherham).

Plus, unless you run it via the M18, there's only one place that you can speed the journey up (Conisborough), so you'd still be running along the same roads. Waste of time.

I think I remember Stagecoach 909 but could you remind me exactly what it was?

Presumably it's disappearance was due to lack of user?

The 909 Stagecoach Express went from Sheffield to Meadowhall to Doncaster express, then on to Scunthorpe and Hull.

Yeah, it got up to every half hour at one stage (hourly from Sheffield to Cleethorpes and hourly from Sheffield to Hull, connections at Humberside Airport to allow Cleethorpes - Hull passengers).

It ran via the M18 (between Meadowhall and Doncaster), but the coach was never going to compete with the train for speed (currently five trains an hour between Sheffield and Doncaster).

 

[bb21]

You're assuming that the X is for Express, of course.

Wilts and Dorset, for instance, made it very clear that the X in their routes stood for "cross-county", not "express". The routes X1 to X8 (now split between More Bus and Salisbury Reds) were longer-distance interurban services, but they didn't have any parallel local routes they could be considered an express version of.

Well, X1/2 traces back to the old 121/2/3/4. X3 was limited stop until Ringwood. X5 was the old 5/6 but no longer runs to Swindon so this doesn't really count. X7 has always been limited stop past Totton iirc, and X8 used to be limited stop until Upton crossroads.

Unless things have changed it should be a right mish-mash nowadays looking at it. I would be quite surprised if X3 and X7 are not at least limited stop for sections of the route.

 

[34D]

I'd be surprised whether doncaster-meadowhall via the M18 was any quicker than on the local roads, especially as the current vehicles can barely exceed 50mph.

The 909 was the bendycoaches, wasn't it?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well, X1/2 traces back to the old 121/2/3/4. X3 was limited stop until Ringwood. X5 was the old 5/6 but no longer runs to Swindon so this doesn't really count. X7 has always been limited stop past Totton iirc, and X8 used to be limited stop until Upton crossroads.

Unless things have changed it should be a right mish-mash nowadays looking at it. I would be quite surprised if X3 and X7 are not at least limited stop for sections of the route.

The X5 DOES run to Swindon, doesn't it? Just not on a Sunday. Despite it going through the village, no timing point for Ogbourne St George so perhaps a little express-ish? The Sunday 5 (operated by Stagecoach) does divert off the main road.

From what I can recall, the X3 was limited stop between Poole and Ringwood before the Poole extension was chopped back. Might still be limited stop between Bournemouth and Ringwood? In fact, the old X1/X2 (Poole/Bournemouth to Ringwood and Southampton) used to do the same to provide a 30 min service when the X3 was only hourly.

What you say about the X7 and X8 deffo seems to ring bells!

 

[radamfi]

Even LT/TfL have cut back on express routes over the last 20 years. The only routes remaining are the X26, 607 and X68 (peak only). TfL were asked at a staff meeting about 10 years ago why there were so few express routes and Clare Kavanagh said that stopping services were a more efficient use of resources. Essentially, the argument was if you had a million pounds to spend on new services, you would get more passengers if you spent them on stopping services than express services.

When Boris came to power one of his commitments was orbital express routes, and the X26 has had a frequency doubling as a result, but there have been no other routes introduced.

 

[Deerfold]

Even LT/TfL have cut back on express routes over the last 20 years. The only routes remaining are the X26, 607 and X68 (peak only). TfL were asked at a staff meeting about 10 years ago why there were so few express routes and Clare Kavanagh said that stopping services were a more efficient use of resources. Essentially, the argument was if you had a million pounds to spend on new services, you would get more passengers if you spent them on stopping services than express services.

When Boris came to power one of his commitments was orbital express routes, and the X26 has had a frequency doubling as a result, but there have been no other routes introduced.

There's not been any cut in the last 12 years though some were cut before then.

There's also the A10 which pops up the M4 out of Heathrow going north.

 

[Eagle]

...and X8 used to be limited stop until Upton crossroads.

Well it still sort of is express between Poole and Upton cemetery because it uses Holes Bay Road and the Upton Bypass, which have no bus stops. North of there it stops everywhere, but it feels like an express because it sticks to the mostly-rural A350 (apart from Sturminster Marshall, and the last bus which goes via Lytchett Matravers on request).

Before about 2004-ish it used to be the 182 Bournemouth Triangle to Blandford, but there was no real change of route when it became the shorter X8 Poole to Blandford (although the frequency was upped I think).

I believe that the 184 Salisbury to Weymouth would have become an X route too, if it weren't for the route needing to be split due to the 50 km tacho rule into the 184 Salisbury to Blandford and the 185 Blandford to Weymouth.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Where would you have limited stop sections then? Which areas do you propose would lose their current frequency?

Ive been speaking to an old contact of mine who worked high up in First many moons ago, he says the plan was to have the X78 run non stop from the Wicker in Sheffield to Meadowhall and then non stop from Meadowhall to Rotherham Interchange, however there were objections from South Yorkshire PTE

 

[Deerfold]

Ive been speaking to an old contact of mine who worked high up in First many moons ago, he says the plan was to have the X78 run non stop from the Wicker in Sheffield to Meadowhall and then non stop from Meadowhall to Rotherham Interchange, however there were objections from South Yorkshire PTE

They can proffer an opinion but they can't tell First what to do...

 

[tbtc]

Ive been speaking to an old contact of mine who worked high up in First many moons ago, he says the plan was to have the X78 run non stop from the Wicker in Sheffield to Meadowhall and then non stop from Meadowhall to Rotherham Interchange, however there were objections from South Yorkshire PTE

In which case you'd need something like the old 501 and 601 services (e.g. to serve the Royal Mail at Brightside) which would need a lot of buses to run parallel routes to shave a couple of minutes off the X78s journey time.

Surely though, as its a commercial service, First could do whatever they wanted with it? Why would the PTE be able to block this?

 

[Statto]

Even LT/TfL have cut back on express routes over the last 20 years. The only routes remaining are the X26, 607 and X68 (peak only). TfL were asked at a staff meeting about 10 years ago why there were so few express routes and Clare Kavanagh said that stopping services were a more efficient use of resources. Essentially, the argument was if you had a million pounds to spend on new services, you would get more passengers if you spent them on stopping services than express services.

When Boris came to power one of his commitments was orbital express routes, and the X26 has had a frequency doubling as a result, but there have been no other routes introduced.

X68 is a peculiar express route, although it runs non stop West Norwood to Waterloo but stops at every stop either end of the route with stopping restrictions, & only operates in one direction only in th am rush hour & operates only in the other direction pm rush hour.

 

[Deerfold]

X68 is a peculiar express route, although it runs non stop West Norwood to Waterloo but stops at every stop either end of the route with stopping restrictions, & only operates in one direction only in th am rush hour & operates only in the other direction pm rush hour.

It did used to operate in both directions during the peak but had very low usage contra-peak. Rather confusingly these were just short journeys at the West Norwood end without the stopping restrictions that applied to the with-peak journeys.

http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/prefixed/X68 20021202.htm

Extra peak journeys were added in 2006.

 

[johnnychips]

When I first moved to Doncaster in 1982 the 277/8 were limited stop services, doing roughly every other stop in the built up areas of Donny, Rotherham and Sheff. As others have pointed out, many all-stop duplicating services have been withdrawn, but the X78 does run at a good frequency.

 

[sheff1]

The 909 Stagecoach Express went from Sheffield to Meadowhall to Doncaster express, then on to Scunthorpe and Hull.

Yeah, it got up to every half hour at one stage (hourly from Sheffield to Cleethorpes and hourly from Sheffield to Hull, connections at Humberside Airport to allow Cleethorpes - Hull passengers).

At one point the 'connections' were at some god forsaken roadside cafe somewhere in rural Lincolnshire. Can't remember whether this was before or after the Airport arrangement. What I do know is that the connections were often not held (or were late arriving, depending which way you were travelling) which resulted in some unhappy punters stood outside said cafe (which rarely seemed to open) for maybe 45 minutes.

The service was pretty well loaded when it was introduced, but I assume it was the combination of unreliabity and journey time which drove people away as the fares were certainly competetive for the end to end journey.

 

[Statto]

It did used to operate in both directions during the peak but had very low usage contra-peak. Rather confusingly these were just short journeys at the West Norwood end without the stopping restrictions that applied to the with-peak journeys.

http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/prefixed/X68 20021202.htm

Extra peak journeys were added in 2006.

Indeed, i've never been on the short journeys only the full length journeys, so i'm wondering if they got rid of the stopping restrictions for these short journeys.

 

[bb21]

The X5 DOES run to Swindon, doesn't it? Just not on a Sunday. Despite it going through the village, no timing point for Ogbourne St George so perhaps a little express-ish? The Sunday 5 (operated by Stagecoach) does divert off the main road.

I just had to check the current timetable online, and it looks like they'd changed the bloody thing again. Last time I looked, X5 finished at Pewsey, with 95/96 operating between Pewsey and Swindon (and requires a change of bus).

From what I can recall, the X3 was limited stop between Poole and Ringwood before the Poole extension was chopped back. Might still be limited stop between Bournemouth and Ringwood? In fact, the old X1/X2 (Poole/Bournemouth to Ringwood and Southampton) used to do the same to provide a 30 min service when the X3 was only hourly.

That would certainly make sense. By the time I had started showing an interest in timetables, they had all been renumbered, and the departures were no longer coordinated between the X3 and X34/35 (X1/2) between Bournemouth and Ringwood, probably due to the differing lengths of time they took. Over that stretch, the X3 became coordinated with the X33 (X5) and X36 (X6) which I think gave 3 express buses every hour or something like that for a good number of years until the winding down of the X33. (I'll have to consult some old timetables when I get a chance to dig them back out.)

Before about 2004-ish it used to be the 182 Bournemouth Triangle to Blandford, but there was no real change of route when it became the shorter X8 Poole to Blandford (although the frequency was upped I think).

The 182 (Bournemouth - Wimborne - Blandford - Shaftesbury) had always been there (albeit with a pretty mangled and non-clockface timetable) and in parallel existence with the X8 for a good number of years. The X8 came with the renumbering of the old X13 Bournemouth - Poole - Blandford (at around the same time as the renumbering of X1/2, etc, mentioned earlier if not on the same date), which was replaced by 183 (between Bournemouth and Blandford extending to Shaftesbury but running via Wimborne after Poole) and the X8 (fast between Poole and Blandford).

There are a lot of recycled route numbers by the company in this discussion. 185 always meant the circular service to the barracks to me.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I just had to check the current timetable online, and it looks like they'd changed the bloody thing again. Last time I looked, X5 finished at Pewsey, with 95/96 operating between Pewsey and Swindon (and requires a change of bus).

The 182 (Bournemouth - Wimborne - Blandford - Shaftesbury) had always been there (albeit with a pretty mangled and non-clockface timetable) and in parallel existence with the X8 for a good number of years. The X8 came with the renumbering of the old X13 Bournemouth - Poole - Blandford (at around the same time as the renumbering of X1/2, etc, mentioned earlier if not on the same date), which was replaced by 183 (between Bournemouth and Blandford extending to Shaftesbury but running via Wimborne after Poole) and the X8 (fast between Poole and Blandford).

There are a lot of recycled route numbers by the company in this discussion. 185 always meant the circular service to the barracks to me.

Think you're getting a bit confused (though it's very understandable).

The 139/X13 was always there and as you say, had a very confusing timetable. I remember it from about 20+ years ago and it was Shaftesbury to Blandford but then headed to Poole or Wimborne and/or Bournemouth which was why it had two numbers. The 139 was renumbered to 182.

The X8 was a service that appeared after Blandford Bus Company appeared with a direct hourly service. W&D introduced the X8 and BBC then came off the route, but the service survived!

The 5/6/95/96 was actually supposed to be a through route. In the old days, the 5/6 ran to Swindon though in practice, there were also changes of bus in Pewsey usually to keep deckers south of Pewsey (I assume for schools). These changes were often not advertised as such, and seemed to be adhoc at times. Pewsey to Swindon was therefore sometimes a decker, but a Tiger, a Metrorider or latterly, a Solo might also appear. When EU rules on the 50km route length appeared, all that happened was the Pewsey to Swindon was renumbered but the vehicle workings were unchanged.

By the time the X5 was introduced, the DfT had issued new guidelines on the 50km rule so changes of service number etc were no longer necessary.

 

[bb21]

The X8 was a service that appeared after Blandford Bus Company appeared with a direct hourly service. W&D introduced the X8 and BBC then came off the route, but the service survived!

Didn't it come about at around the same time as the X13 got renumbered? That might explain why I thought it was borne out of the X13.

When EU rules on the 50km route length appeared, all that happened was the Pewsey to Swindon was renumbered but the vehicle workings were unchanged.

Ah, I only used it once and was on probably one of the few workings that required a change of bus.