First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Hazlehead]

Chatting to a guy in the pub last night who told me he'd signed the petition because "I travel several times a year to Carlisle and I don't want to be doing it in those silly little two car trains that First run" !!
He also mentioned that if Virgin do lose it,they shouldn't let First have their staff or trains.
I wonder how many of the 100,000 have views that match those ?

Just proves my point earlier. Must admit it angers me and embarasses me at some of quotes and antics my colleagues are doing and saying. They just totally disregarding the facts of firsts bid and making up their own stories. This PR stunt sickly reminds me of a certain Herr Goebelles and his propaganda machine

 

[HH]

There would be huge problems for DfT if they re-opened the WC bidding. First would have a good legal case to demand damages. Other bidders would ask for their re-bid to be paid for by the department. It would open the door to challenges by every disgruntled failed bidder.

The question all the sheep should be asking Branson is, "Why, if you thought that the new franchising process was deeply flawed, did you wait until after the winner was announced to complain about it?".

The time to say that there was too much focus on price, and not enough on quality (with which I, and I'm sure many others would agree), was back when the draft ITT was released.

 

[northwichcat]

Chatting to a guy in the pub last night who told me he'd signed the petition because "I travel several times a year to Carlisle and I don't want to be doing it in those silly little two car trains that First run" !!
He also mentioned that if Virgin do lose it,they shouldn't let First have their staff or trains.
I wonder how many of the 100,000 have views that match those ?

Saw a post on Facebook yesterday saying that they are glad that the new franchise hasn't been awarded to South West Trains. :roll:

 

[HH]

Saw a post on Facebook yesterday saying that they are glad that the new franchise hasn't been awarded to South West Trains. :roll:

I actually broke out into laughter at this, causing much confusion all around.

 

[Pen Mill]

I actually broke out into laughter at this, causing much confusion all around.

Yeah lay off SWT , we need them down here !

 

[Furrball]

From their http://www.virgin.com/travel/news/50-reasons-to-sign-the-virgin-trains-e-petition

15. We give customers higher compensation when things do go wrong.

erm, no you do not.

Virgin charter:

If a delay to a Virgin train causes an hour or more delay to your journey (45 minutes in the case of a train on the London - Birmingham/Wolverhampton services) we will reimburse you with National Rail vouchers equal to 25% of the total.

Alternatively, if you are delayed on a Virgin train by more than two hours we will reimburse you with National Rail vouchers equal to the full price paid for the affected portion (outward/return) of the journey.

First Great Western

If your journey is delayed by more than an hour, we will compensate our customers, including Weekly Season Ticket Holders the full value in National Rail vouchers, of the part of the journey, which was delayed, i.e. 50% of the cost of a return, and 100% in case of a single ticket. If you are delayed in excess of two hours, we will compensate customers the full cost of your ticket.

East Coast

Customers delayed on East Coast services between 30 and 59 minutes will receive compensation of at least 50% of the cost of a single ticket or at least 50% of the cost of either portion of a return ticket (by 'portion' we mean either the outward or the return part of a return ticket).

Customers delayed on East Coast services between 60 and 119 minutes will receive compensation of at least 100% of the cost of a single ticket or at least 100% of the cost of either portion of a return ticket (by 'portion' we mean either the outward or the return part of a return ticket).

Customers delayed on East Coast services for 120 minutes or longer will receive compensation of at least 100% of the cost of a single ticket or at least 100% of the cost of a return ticket (i.e. both ways, not just one way).

 

[Aictos]

Virgin are entitled to put their case, but carrying on like a spoiled child isn't the way to do it. The CIS are there to provide information, not wage propaganda campaigns, next we will have 'Vote Labour' flashing up.

As station managers they are required to be neutral in terms of displaying timetables and selling tickets for other TOCs, I think the same should apply to their dealings with the DfT.

The longer it goes on, the sillier Virgin look and they must be rapidly running out of friends at the DfT. I think Stagecoach's silence on the issue speaks volumes about what they think of Branson's campaign.

I totally agree, CIS screens are not there to wage propaganda campaigns but are there to provide service information to the people who matter ie passengers and their staff!!!

And I suspect the only people who feel like Virgin are behaving like 'spoilt brats' are the people on this board who for some reason have it in for them. To me, they're just a business doing what any business would do, trying to retain it.

I disagree, before First was announced as a bidder I would have been quite contend to use Virgin but with their recent behaviour making them look like spoilt brats I've lost all respect for them.

I have nothing against Virgin but am disappointed they have chosen to act this way, this being said I don't like being accused that I have it in for them.

 

[SkinnyDave]

One thing to note is with the discussion on here and Facebook etc, everyone is talking about the subject. Not worked out if this is a good thing or not
First are doing the right thing by keeping trap shut and they will know they have a huge job to do over franchise term.
I think they will be successful but tell you what the DFT will get a serious going over if this fails in anyway!

East Coast Shenagins to come next year

 

[Ferret]

Not just the DfT, but First Group as well, and probably the Tory Party as a whole, as the architects of privatisation. High stakes indeed.

It's all very well and good Virgin moaning, but they've been unsuccessful with many bids now - you'd think that they'd learn from that? When they lost XC, many of us said that they needed to look at how they bid for franchises in future and learn that what matters to the DfT is the money. Obviously they didn't learn that lesson.

 

[jon0844]

It's clear that Virgin will bid for the ECML (no doubt claiming they're only doing so to 'save' the public) but I am not sure how they'd expect to win.

They can't overbid now, so I guess they'll just bid on the basis that they're Virgin and customer service excellence is a given. And when they don't win, they can start crying again and start another petition.

IF First has made a mess of things, they might get loads of support. If the WCML hasn't collapsed, people will be 'meh' and worry about the more important things in their life now, like the latest scandal in EastEnders, X Factor or new photos of some z-list celeb (or Royal?) in the press.

How do they get back into the rail business now? Will Stagecoach want to be part of them or go it alone?

When this finally ends and Virgin accepts defeat and the Government, First and others have their say (quite rightly keeping quiet for now) then I suspect the whole brand will be damaged. I feel for the poor people at Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Media and, indeed, the staff who will be TUPEd over to First in December and carry on business as usual.

What Virgin will discover about people who jump on bandwagons is that when they lose, everyone switches sides and claims they always supported the winning side.

 

[Manchester77]

It'll hit 100,000 today. It's 98,459 atm
Has there been another company who has kicked off this much when they lost a franchise?
Had a quick look at some of facebooks save virgin groups
Had people saying first went bankrupt and caused the ECML to be renationalised not national express
Had someone saying how punctuality improved since arriva got XC and then someone starts going on about beaching

 

[WCMLaddict]

While the Virgin PR is going well and seems to be very effective the staff start to complain about the lack of information from their employer. From what I've heard they haven't been told anything beside "sign the petition and get more people to do so". They don't know what is going to happen whatever the result is and seem to feel rather left to themselves.

Virgin were rather confident with retaining the franchise Read the first sentence of survey given to me yesterday. I'm sure the survey has been done before and the comapny conducting it just copied old ones

 

[PR1Berske]

Up to 98,538 now (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37180)

As has been said, the relevant committee can only CONSIDER this for debate, it doesn't automatically make it.

With the TSC requesting a delay, in any case, it probably won't be selected.

 

[Pen Mill]

Up to 98,538 now (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37180)

As has been said, the relevant committee can only CONSIDER this for debate, it doesn't automatically make it.

With the TSC requesting a delay, in any case, it probably won't be selected.

Is there a counter-petition ?
or are First more dignified than that ?

 

[PR1Berske]

200 more ish since I posted that, my good heavens above

 

[jcevans]

Gosh some of the attitudes on here are incredibly snobby, is no one here enthused / proud of the fact discussions about the WCML and rail has become a major national issue? It shows how much people care for their railways.

Secondly, I dont know why everyone is being so critical
of Virgin. They are fighting for their business, its unlikely they will ever run a franchise again. They are essientially commiting corporate suicide in an attempt to retain the franchise. They know how big the stakes are. Dont forget this petition was started by an ordinary person....this was only embraced by Branson a couple of days ago. The outpouring of affection on twitter for Virgin the hours after they lost the franchise shows how much support is there.

 

[dvboy]

I'd like to think First were more dignified, they are most likely of the opinion that such a petition will not make a blind bit of difference.

No "sign the petition" messages on the CIS or anywhere else at Wolverhampton yet. I'd be complaining to the station manager if there were. I agree it is an inappropriate use of the screens, in fact the whole propaganda mission that VT are on makes them look very childish in my eyes and is clearly aimed at people who don't know how the process works.

Virgin need to stop looking at the past, and what First do/have done elsewhere, and look closely what both of them offered in their bids. The government have decided First's bid was better than theirs; if it wasn't, they wouldn't have won.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Gosh some of the attitudes on here are incredibly snobby, is no one here enthused / proud of the fact discussions about the WCML and rail has become a major national issue? It shows how much people care for their railways.

Secondly, I dont know why everyone is being so critical
of Virgin. They are fighting for their business, its unlikely they will ever run a franchise again. They are essientially commiting corporate suicide in an attempt to retain the franchise. They know how big the stakes are. Dont forget this petition was started by an ordinary person....this was only embraced by Branson a couple of days ago. The outpouring of affection on twitter for Virgin the hours after they lost the franchise shows how much support is there.

Because they could just ask for juridical review and then the MPs would still probably look at it. And let everyone else sign the petition. Its the way they are going about it, not that they are going about it.

 

[PR1Berske]

Gosh some of the attitudes on here are incredibly snobby, is no one here enthused / proud of the fact discussions about the WCML and rail has become a major national issue? It shows how much people care for their railways.

Secondly, I dont know why everyone is being so critical
of Virgin. They are fighting for their business, its unlikely they will ever run a franchise again. They are essientially commiting corporate suicide in an attempt to retain the franchise. They know how big the stakes are. Dont forget this petition was started by an ordinary person....this was only embraced by Branson a couple of days ago. The outpouring of affection on twitter for Virgin the hours after they lost the franchise shows how much support is there.

"Paris Hilton" was a trending topic on Twitter after she lost a certain high-profile follower. Twitter and "outpouring" does not equate to a national consensus.

Virgin's actions have not been entirely reflective of how a national company should operate. Running links to an e-petition in their favour across station departure screens is quite close to vandalism.

 

[Pen Mill]

I'd like to think First were more dignified, they are most likely of the opinion that such a petition will not make a blind bit of difference.

No "sign the petition" messages on the CIS or anywhere else at Wolverhampton yet. I'd be complaining to the station manager if there were. I agree it is an inappropriate use of the screens, in fact the whole propaganda mission that VT are on makes them look very childish in my eyes and is clearly aimed at people who don't know how the process works.

Virgin need to stop looking at the past, and what First do/have done elsewhere, and look closely what both of them offered in their bids. The government have decided First's bid was better than theirs; if it wasn't, they wouldn't have won.

This is Government department officials stirring the pot for other Gov't officials prompted from the sidelines.
If this is the best we can do as a country managing its infrastructure it's a very poor show.
Surely any "Public Accounts" enquiry or other audit procedure should've been carried out BEFORE (Yes shouting !) the decision was announced and that decision should've been utterly unambiguously final.
This charade is totally unacceptable.

 

[bnm]

From their http://www.virgin.com/travel/news/50-reasons-to-sign-the-virgin-trains-e-petition

4. We have the fastest trains and we’re getting quicker.

No you don't and no you aren't. Your trains top speed is the same as FGW, EMT, XC, EC and GC HSTs. The same as EC Class 91+Mk4s. The same as GC, HT and FGWs Class 180s. And slower than Southeasterns Class 395. You can't get any quicker than 125mph until signalling and p/way is improved.

6. Best for value for money.

One of the most expensive pence per mile figures for Anytime fares is hardly best value for money for those who have to pay it.

8. Best for customer satisfaction.

Most recent National Passenger Survey put Virgin behind Merseyrail, Hull Trains and Heathrow Connect for overall satisfaction. Most recent data on complaints handled by Passenger Focus put Virgin in 2nd place.

9. We'd invest more in the new franchise than anyone else.

Promises, promises. Back that up by publishing your bid details.

18. The Virgin brand is a byword for quality across the globe.

That'll be why I gave up on Virgin Media's pish poor cable television and cable broadband services after just one year with them.

10. We have stuck with the franchise through thick and thin, never walking away.

Holding the government to ransom twice. First by renegotiating the franchise heavily in Virgin's favour and second by getting all uppity over the Pendolino lengthening project.

23. You are as much a part of Virgin Trains as we are.

In that case why don't I get PRIV rates or discounts for other Virgin Group companies?

25. Because you have a voice and can make a difference.

But out of all Train Operators we respond to that voice in the slowest time.

31. Our state-of-the art electric Pendolino trains are environmentally friendly emitting at least 76% less CO2 than cars and 78% less than domestic flights.

The Pendolinos aren't yours. They belong to Angel Trains. And isn't one of your sister companies shortly to add to domestic flight CO2 emissions?

32. We’ve recently added capacity on our services to increase standard seating by 50%.

The DfT recently paid for added capacity.

33. If you like what we did in the last 15 years you should see what we've got planned for the next 15.

But you've yet to tell us what was in your bid.

43. If we get 100,000 signatures the government will discuss the issue in parliament.

The government may discuss it. There is no obligation on their part to to discuss any e-petition that gets 100,000 sheep people to sign it.

 

[PR1Berske]

200 more ish since I posted that, my good heavens above

99,266 now. By the time we've all made a brew it should be over the limit.

 

[jon0844]

When First got the TL/GN franchise they were very quick to set up a site purely for staff to explain what was going to happen. I presume they've done so for the WCML one too.

But what is Virgin doing if it isn't telling staff what happens? That it will be business as usual for full time staff (TUPE) and so on. Telling the people on contracts that expire who to speak to (First) on whether they'll be extended etc.

It seems that they're quite happy to have staff fear for their future to get them to support Virgin's campaign. If so, that's an awful abuse and something the media should look at.

 

[tbtc]

I think its totally legitimate for any company to fight to keep their business - and I think Virgin are quite within their rights to do so

And I suspect the only people who feel like Virgin are behaving like 'spoilt brats' are the people on this board who for some reason have it in for them. To me, they're just a business doing what any business would do, trying to retain it

I dont know why everyone is being so critical
of Virgin. They are fighting for their business

The problem is that its not *their* business. They have a contract to run the WCML franchise until December 2012, that's all. They don't own the trains, they don't own the track, they don't own the station...

...this isn't comparable to a company losing their own business; its a firm who had a fixed contract (where they didn't own any infrastructure) not having that contract renewed. It happens every day in the modern world.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if people who went to the Olympics and had a day pass to the Olympic Park got upset when it expired and they had to leave. Did they sit in and protest to be allowed to stay beyond their time?

Virgin has to hand back the keys to the landlord as their 'lease' is up. Simple.

 

[Lampshade]

And I suspect the only people who feel like Virgin are behaving like 'spoilt brats' are the people on this board who for some reason have it in for them. To me, they're just a business doing what any business would do, trying to retain it.

Never heard of being gracious in defeat?

Look at Midland Mainline - now THERE was a TOC worthy of retaining the franchise - did they kick up such a fuss? No.

 

[williamn]

What's the point of being gracious in defeat when you have no business left afterwards? The only people who attribute 'graciousness' and 'dignity' to Train companies are the ones on this board. I doubt many of the public are worrying about whether Virgin are being dignified.

 

[tbtc]

Never heard of being gracious in defeat?

Look at Midland Mainline - now THERE was a TOC worthy of retaining the franchise - did they kick up such a fuss? No.

A fantastic TOC - doubling services by introducing new 100mph trains (creating links to Barnsley, Matlock, Burton etc), extending them with centre carriages, then when those services got even busier introducing a new class of longer 125mph trains (with ambitions to run an hourly London - Leeds service)... they really don't get the credit that they deserve (compared to everyone fawning over GNER at the time).

 

[Manchester77]

It's just short of 100,000 by around 300 signatures atm.
I hope virgin won't win the franchise back because IMO it will just open the door for every other franchise holder when they loose to do what virgin has done and throw a tantrum.

 

[tbtc]

What's the point of being gracious in defeat when you have no business left afterwards? The only people who attribute 'graciousness' and 'dignity' to Train companies are the ones on this board. I doubt many of the public are worrying about whether Virgin are being dignified.

It's a franchise. One which was agreed to end in December 2012. It is ending in December 2012.

Surely Mr Branson, as a business minded person understands such things? Or do Virgin believe their own hype (about "their" trains etc)?