First Trip On A Desiro

[Doomotron]

Recently I travelled for the first time on a Desiro, to Guildford. It was a Class 450 and I was disappointed. I live in Kent so I travel mostly on Javelins and Electrostars. I'll focus mostly on Electrostars as they were the direct alternative to the Desiro.

The ride in the Desiro was... Odd. It was very smooth, but it had a 'rocking' action, rather like in a boat, which I didn't like. The doors also were very slow and the door alarm was quite harsh. It also didn't help that the 450s have got the SE Electrostars' Standard Class seats in First Class, but I won't get into the matter of seats.

What are your views on Desiros and Electrostars (after going to Guildford, I'm definitely an Electrostar guy)?

 

[TRAX]

I’ve always found the ride quality of Electrostars much smoother and comfortable than that of Desiros.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They do the job and they’re alright for the journeys they do. I say that living in 450 land.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve always found the ride quality of Electrostars much smoother and comfortable than that of Desiros.

Electrostars ride better, but Desiros will still be plying the rails by the time all the Electrostars have fallen to bits in a scrapyard somewhere. Superb build quality and reliability, nice big windows, spacious, square profile and excellent seats in Standard if you get a 2+2 variant. I think you can guess which I prefer

 

[superalbs]

Electrostars ride better

Huh? Most of my roughest ever journeys are on Electrostars! Particularly the 387s on ECML, no problems experienced on the 700, for example (which isn't a Desiro, but still a different train that has no problems on the same track).

Desiro on the other hand, very smooth.

 

[supervc-10]

I've always found Desiros very smooth. Love the 444s on SWR (well, SWT last time I was on one!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've always found Desiros very smooth. Love the 444s on SWR (well, SWT last time I was on one!)

I find there's a very noticeable difference in where you sit. In the middle and it's as smooth as anything, at the ends (particularly outside the bogie) and it can be quite bad.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

700s are essentially updates of the desiro as are electrostars updates of the networker

 

[hexagon789]

I find Desiros ride poorly in general. On indifferent track the ride is very rough, even on good quality track they develop a pronounced swaying motion at speed.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Most noticeable on a 185. At speed they are ok on straight track, but tend to oscillate around curves. Apparently the heavy weight of the engine contributes to the swaying and the suspension can "bottom out" on rough junctions and other locations (Batley for example) but then again if the electric desiros do it as well it might be a design issue somewhere

Edited as Batley isn't a junction (not on today's railway anyway) however it does have a distinctive dip when trains pass over the subway

 

[hexagon789]

Most noticeable on a 185. At speed they are ok on straight track, but tend to oscillate around curves. Apparently the heavy weight of the engine contributes to the swaying and the suspension can "bottom out" on rough junctions (Batley for example) but then again if the electric desiros do it as well it might be a design issue somewhere

I think it's simply the bogies/suspension simply aren't designed for our rather variable track.

 

[387star]

The 377s have a great interior configuration in the outer cars of most units but an awful configuration in the middle. I imagine the next franchise will standardise the many interior configurations. I heard plugs are coming?

The new side panels are brighter and keep cleaner than the ones they were built with but their covering easily peels off once the grill covers are dislodged by people's feet presumably. Starts to look shabby along with the paint peeling off the metal seat surrounds and grab handles

The 377s have far too many parts flimsily screwed together whereas the desiros have a continuous wall

 

[satisnek]

I can only speak for the 350s on the southern WCML, but the ride quality has definitely got worse over the years. I don't know if this is due to track, suspension or both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can only speak for the 350s on the southern WCML, but the ride quality has definitely got worse over the years. I don't know if this is due to track, suspension or both.

I've not noticed that.

 

[cactustwirly]

700s are essentially updates of the desiro as are electrostars updates of the networker

Not really, the Networkers were much better built, and they had better ride quality.
The 387s ride awfully compared to the 165s they replaced, and they have loads of annoying rattles and squeeks.

The Desiros have MK3 like ride quality, and they are very well built, with hardly any rattles. They also have much better sound proofing and are a lot a smoother than electrostars.
Although the 375s have a nicer seats than the 450s

 

[Kite159]

Not really, the Networkers were much better built, and they had better ride quality.
The 387s ride awfully compared to the 165s they replaced, and they have loads of annoying rattles and squeeks.

The Desiros have MK3 like ride quality, and they are very well built, with hardly any rattles. They also have much better sound proofing and are a lot a smoother than electrostars.
Although the 375s have a nicer seats than the 450s

Comparing the 3+2 seated 375/9s with the 450s I hope, as comparing the 2+2 seated versions with 3+2 isn't a valid comparison as in general 2+2 seating is better than 3+2

 

[hexagon789]

The Desiros have MK3 like ride quality,

Not one I've ever been on

 

[hexagon789]

They do the job and they’re alright for the journeys they do. I say that living in 450 land.

I suppose so, they were designed for a job and they do it without fuss.

But can they not do it without shaking about all over the place too?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The seating layouts on SWR 450s really don't endear themselves to the travelling public, put 2 + 2 Electrostars style seating throughout all the 450s and people would fall in love with them again
The photo attached shows a 6ft1 me sat in a 3 + 2 seating on a SWR 450 and anyone sat opposite me would either need to be a midget or I hope they'll enjoy interlocking legs with me

 

[class387]

Huh? Most of my roughest ever journeys are on Electrostars! Particularly the 387s on ECML, no problems experienced on the 700, for example (which isn't a Desiro, but still a different train that has no problems on the same track).

Desiro on the other hand, very smooth.

Agreed, and some of my smoothest are on 350s

 

[Dougal2345]

The Desiros [...] have much better sound proofing [...] than electrostars.

I'm not sure how you can tell that given the continual roar of the air conditioning on Desiros that blots out anything else...

Apart from that (major) failing, I like Desiros. The preponderance of airline seats, almost all with good legroom, is a plus, and I rarely notice ride quality issues. The seats are fine for journeys that are rarely going to be over two hours.

Fix that fatiguing air con roar and they'd be ideal.

 

[Spartacus]

If you don’t like the swaying motion of a 450 never go on a 185, you’ll get seasick! 450s are smooth by comparison, I don’t think the increase in weight was entirely compensated for. You don’t notice it after a while, until you travel on something else.

 

[nlogax]

Must surely be SW suburban metals. They're not great at certain points along the inner SWML, even though a 450 tries to make a decent job of them.. compare and contrast the same sections when sat on a 455 or 456. Have noticed the exact same issues on 350s on busier parts of the WCML and the suburbs of Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seating layouts on SWR 450s really don't endear themselves to the travelling public, put 2 + 2 Electrostars style seating throughout all the 450s and people would fall in love with them again
The photo attached shows a 6ft1 me sat in a 3 + 2 seating on a SWR 450 and anyone sat opposite me would either need to be a midget or I hope they'll enjoy interlocking legs with me

View attachment 62396

Doesn't the 450 have a layout very similar to the 350/2? On the latter there is one bay (I forget where it is) that has poor spacing like that, the others are aligned to the windows and very generously spaced.

As for seating the Siemens 2+2 layout and seats is fine by me, no need to swap the seats, just fit armrests (they are the same seat frames).

 

[Clip]

The seating layouts on SWR 450s really don't endear themselves to the travelling public, put 2 + 2 Electrostars style seating throughout all the 450s and people would fall in love with them again
The photo attached shows a 6ft1 me sat in a 3 + 2 seating on a SWR 450 and anyone sat opposite me would either need to be a midget or I hope they'll enjoy interlocking legs with me

View attachment 62396

I get that its poor but these are high density people movers and you cant get high density and the chance for people to have a seat without trying to cram in as many as possible.

Would you be prepared to possibly stand for your whole journey if they went for more generous 2+2 seating?

 

[Dougal2345]

Doesn't the 450 have a layout very similar to the 350/2? On the latter there is one bay (I forget where it is) that has poor spacing like that, the others are aligned to the windows and very generously spaced.

I'm 6'1" myself and have never noticed any real problems with the 450 seating. Facing seats are never great (which is why I always avoid them) but, without getting out a tape measure to check, I don't think 450s are too bad, and are possibly better than Electrostar 2+2 table seats in this respect. And certainly better than a 158's table seats (both SWR and GWR) (once again an unscientific impression, I haven't measured).

Going back to the air conditioning roar, I wonder how the Electrostar designers manage to eliminate it almost completely, whereas on the Desiros it's the equivalent of sitting in an idling 158? (I did use a meter to check that!). I always sit at the ends of the coaches in Desiros where things are quietest.

 

[RealTrains07]

Desiros are better full stop in my opinion. Grew up in the south west which railway is majority desiro run then moved to the west midlands which again is run by lots of desiros.

Whenever i have travelled on an electrostar which isnt very often compared to the latter their seating and air conditioning quality varies unit per unit depending how old the model is, iron board seats for example on the newer electrostars kill your back every time.

At least the desiro have some consistency in the design both in the west midlands and south west with more than comfortable seating compared to the electrostars. The speed of the door closing has never bothered me tbh as again the speed can vary per desiro unit

In general bombardier trains have always been in my mind a poorer build quality than others, which actually these days isnt seemily much of a deal breaker

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going back to the air conditioning roar, I wonder how the Electrostar designers manage to eliminate it almost completely, whereas on the Desiros it's the equivalent of sitting in an idling 158? (I did use a meter to check that!). I always sit at the ends of the coaches in Desiros where things are quietest.

As it's simple "white noise" I don't find it anywhere near as annoying as an idling DMU. I think it's a trade-off - in a Desiro the air is circulated much better and so you don't get any temperature variance, much less so in a *Star where you seem to get hot and cold points. It'll also be relevant that the Desiro has one big aircon unit in the middle (hence more of a need to circulate) whereas *Stars have two smaller ones, one over each vestibule.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doesn't the 450 have a layout very similar to the 350/2? On the latter there is one bay (I forget where it is) that has poor spacing like that, the others are aligned to the windows and very generously spaced.

I've always thought the 450 in as built condition and the 350/2 were 99% or more identical. Except that the 350/2 didn't have the guard's office, which was unused on the LM route. I'm sure this has been the consensus in many earlier discussions.

 

[Dougal2345]

As it's simple "white noise" I don't find it anywhere near as annoying as an idling DMU. I think it's a trade-off - in a Desiro the air is circulated much better and so you don't get any temperature variance, much less so in a *Star where you seem to get hot and cold points. It'll also be relevant that the Desiro has one big aircon unit in the middle (hence more of a need to circulate) whereas *Stars have two smaller ones, one over each vestibule.

But I think by raising the 'noise floor', if that's the correct term, it also makes everything else noisier - passengers talk in raised voices to be heard, no-one bothers to stop their mobile bleeping or whatever - whereas with the more library-like feel of the Electrostar, the first passenger who breaks that silence realises that he's making an exhibition of himself...